Snake_Foxhounder;n9827931 said:
Quite honestly, I wouldn't miss NG if it suddenly disappeared, lol. I mean, every freaking archetype of that faction is infuriating. Every time i have to sit through 7 ambassadors/emissaries being rezzed, rerezzed, resummoned, reboosted in a row, THEN sit through 12-shot-volley of enforcer fire; every time i have to play with like 8 cards out of 11 revealed and watch that Cantarella revealed on the other side; every time I see that retarded MILL gameplay... the horror. I don't think I'll ever be a Nilfgaard player, quite honestly.
I actually have an idea for a fun SC deck in that vein! Let Mulligan archetype blind-mulligan your hand for you. Maybe like, damage every card you draw by one? Awesome, right?
Snake_Foxhounder;n9827931 said:
What makes you think the GwentUp reports are relevant to anything? They only release their "reports" for clicks despite knowing how awful their data is especially this early in a patch still.
The Gwentlemen Snapshot which took in the opinion of actual high level players has NG Spies at the top along with Skelliege. But I guess we should rely on data taken from 3k players instead even though that MMR level is basically free to anybody who plays enough games.
Barracuda88
NG offers great targeted removal. The issue is that it requires setup of at least 2 Enforcers. Whenever I see those cards on the board, removing them is my goal. A spy archetype without enforcers can't do much, as impera brigades suck. I run one, maybe two becase they're easy to reset. The assassins are a bit too much. I complained about them when they released. They synergise with spy deck and are easy to use to simply destroy cards. But I don't see many of those.
Won't talk about mill. Played against a "master" at lower ranks yesterday. Managed to beat him with a ST deck but it took 15 minutes at least. Tried playing it myself and it was incredibly boring.
So yeah, NG isn't any worse than SK and its ships+longswords combo, Vran+Nekkers or NR machines spam. You remove the enforcers=game over.
@Juuto
The data's taken from over a million matches where both you and your opponent are tracked, when it comes to leaders. Most high ranking players are in "tryhard" MMR. They're playing their best decks and NG isn't among them. The highest MMR bracket shows NG at 4th or 5th place. If NG is Tier 1, so are MS and SK. So why is it that MS and SK are being used much more? Because they're much easier to use with the same or better results.
Quite hoestly, NG could be the most balanced faction now. It has great removal tools but it's low tempo and requires setup. Most NG plays are easily stopped, unlike SK and the useless removal against them, MS and their 186 point power swings with a single card and NR and their spawn 10 units from a single card swarms. Overreacting here but you get the idea.
NG offers great targeted removal. The issue is that it requires setup of at least 2 Enforcers. Whenever I see those cards on the board, removing them is my goal. A spy archetype without enforcers can't do much, as impera brigades suck. I run one, maybe two becase they're easy to reset. The assassins are a bit too much. I complained about them when they released. They synergise with spy deck and are easy to use to simply destroy cards. But I don't see many of those.
Won't talk about mill. Played against a "master" at lower ranks yesterday. Managed to beat him with a ST deck but it took 15 minutes at least. Tried playing it myself and it was incredibly boring.
So yeah, NG isn't any worse than SK and its ships+longswords combo, Vran+Nekkers or NR machines spam. You remove the enforcers=game over.
@Juuto
The data's taken from over a million matches where both you and your opponent are tracked, when it comes to leaders. Most high ranking players are in "tryhard" MMR. They're playing their best decks and NG isn't among them. The highest MMR bracket shows NG at 4th or 5th place. If NG is Tier 1, so are MS and SK. So why is it that MS and SK are being used much more? Because they're much easier to use with the same or better results.
Quite hoestly, NG could be the most balanced faction now. It has great removal tools but it's low tempo and requires setup. Most NG plays are easily stopped, unlike SK and the useless removal against them, MS and their 186 point power swings with a single card and NR and their spawn 10 units from a single card swarms. Overreacting here but you get the idea.
In general it is very easy to overreact if your deck can't counter something at the moment it pops up so just take a step back and adjust, give it some days to see first. The first day of the new patch, 50% of the decks I came across were NG reveal. Now I haven't come across a reveal deck in...feels like forever. Nowhere near as many.
There's probably a reason for that
NG is a low tempo and pretty balanced faction as said above. while setting up spies you will always be behind the opponent in terms of power. Mill has the problem of over-relying on Avallac'h and being almost useless against any deck that has more than 26 - 28 cards. As for Reveal, the only suggested change is being unable to sap the power of gold units for Venendal Elites but otherwise I don't see anything wrong with it
There's probably a reason for that
NG is a low tempo and pretty balanced faction as said above. while setting up spies you will always be behind the opponent in terms of power. Mill has the problem of over-relying on Avallac'h and being almost useless against any deck that has more than 26 - 28 cards. As for Reveal, the only suggested change is being unable to sap the power of gold units for Venendal Elites but otherwise I don't see anything wrong with it
Snake_Foxhounder;n9827931 said:
I am stuck at rank 13 and have uninstalled the Game 3 times since the last updates. The Events are fun. The changes to the Game, especially for Nilfgaard not so much ...
8 out of 10 Games is against spy decks and i am still unable to find a deck that could compete with them.
For the record where the problem lies and what the fuss is about: GWENT Top Tier decks.
Only 2 Tier 1 Decks and the first and strongest is Spies.
I have all Cards to play with but that doesnt solve the problem. Playing vs NG control is a pain in the ass, no matter what faction or deck you have and i have tryed all of them.
Faustus800;n9835351 said:
Do note that this is Gwentlemen's opinion of what tier this decks are. On the other hand the report mentioned above is quite factual and it shows which decks are used most and with which winrate.
On a more practical note it would help to know what faction/archetype you play, but in general you counter spies with:
a) big early tempo
b) killing enforcers as soon as they appear (in a similarly urgent way you would kill kaedweni, dragoon and so on)
c) burning away those pumped brigades with Gigni, Mardroeme,Mandrake, coral, scorch, you name it...
At least some of this options must be viable to you regardless of the faction...
How are Tiers determined? Because Monster consume with carryover and Nekker spam has to be Tier 1. Is there actual data behind it or is it their opinion?
How come I have no issues beating spies, even mill, with my handbuff ST deck? Level 30/rank 12 player? As soon as an enforcer comes down, they get removed either by one thunder I carry, or a buffed swordmaster. Or a mandrake, which I run. And I'm a casual player.
Skellige has a plethora of removal tools.
Monsters can EASILY out tempo NG, no matter how many spies/enforcers combo they use. Follow up with Yennefer for the swarm buff.
NR can outswarm NG as well. You have a crapload of cards that spawn 2 more copies. Yen works wonders here.
Or how about Eskel?
Impera brigades are a liability in my opinion. They're easily reset by a bunch of cards so running them is not recommended. Someone mentioned rot tossers and I have to say, are you kidding? With 90% of agile cards, tossers are useless.
The issue seems to be that people are unwilling to change their decks. They're so used to decks they played for months, that adding a few tech cards (that work well for most factions) suddenly is a big deal, because they have to re learn the game.
How come I have no issues beating spies, even mill, with my handbuff ST deck? Level 30/rank 12 player? As soon as an enforcer comes down, they get removed either by one thunder I carry, or a buffed swordmaster. Or a mandrake, which I run. And I'm a casual player.
Skellige has a plethora of removal tools.
Monsters can EASILY out tempo NG, no matter how many spies/enforcers combo they use. Follow up with Yennefer for the swarm buff.
NR can outswarm NG as well. You have a crapload of cards that spawn 2 more copies. Yen works wonders here.
Or how about Eskel?
Impera brigades are a liability in my opinion. They're easily reset by a bunch of cards so running them is not recommended. Someone mentioned rot tossers and I have to say, are you kidding? With 90% of agile cards, tossers are useless.
The issue seems to be that people are unwilling to change their decks. They're so used to decks they played for months, that adding a few tech cards (that work well for most factions) suddenly is a big deal, because they have to re learn the game.
Snake_Foxhounder;n9835591 said:
Sure you can optimise your decks to Deal with this one faction but this is not a good recipe for a balanced meta.
Decks i play (or like) the most: Spellyatell (shame on me), Nekkers, Monster and NR-Spam + Skellige Fattys (Turseach Boost).
Other Decks i like: Eithne Dwarfes (Boost or Beatdown, both works out great).
As you can see and read in the link above: The shown Deck is not a must have. You can also change some Silver cards and still have the best consistency possible.
Vicovaro medics mess with your graveyard (Skellige-Keycards), Assassins take out Scoyatell and NR Keycards and Stuff like sweers kills Nekker Decks by an instant and you never know what to prepare for. Impera Soldiers are pretty powerfull and those Decks using John or Emhyr are incredible consistent.
In my opinion, the devs should be much more carefull giving love to spell or control Decks.
Control-Hardliner can easely dominate any meta. Thats pretty much in their nature.
NG is kind of like the usa ... :/
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But in this particular case you don't even have to "optimize" against this faction. Some general removal tools that come in handy for quite a few decks beside NG spies work on spies too.Faustus800;n9835871 said:
And if you are running a powerful deck yourself you can even try outrunning it because NR and monsters can both produce equal or more power if unchecked.
Faustus800;n9835871 said:
But actually with NG spies deck you mention you actually can prepare. Impera enforcer, impera enforcer and i will say it again Impera Enforcer. this deck crumbles without it, because the other staple card Impera Brigade just loves to be burned and reset(not to mention it will never be so buffed if enforcers haven't killed and recycled the emissaries.
Faustus800;n9835871 said:
Not sure of your meaning here, but if dominate a meta means being a meta deck than i disagree. Control decks, almost by definition cannot be a meta. Simply because they are a reaction to one(or more,but never a majority of) decks and as such revolve around reactive play to something widely and predictably played. If you mean that control decks can dominate a meta deck, well yes that is the point, but a good one. Would be kind of pointless if there was no way to control against a meta deck would it?
oh and Ng spies in its more common forms is not really a pure control deck.
nemirni;n9836021 said:
Thats pretty much what ive said and having one ring *gasp* deck to keep control over meta-decks is not a good point.
It would be another story when there where 4 or more Tier 1 Decks but in this current meta with agressive control Decks on Top of Tier lists it is just no fun to play this game.
Ive tryed NG myself and this deck has a pretty decend winrate against any deck. Playng against NG on the other Hand is still a pain in the ass. Its pretty much hack and slay about who has more enforcers on the field wins the match. Not to mention that most ppl google their Decks wich is why you see NG that often. Especially in lower and middle rankings. IDK what going on on Top, i just play my daly 6 games, trying new Decks or combinations and thats it. Pretty much casual, but sometimes you wont find any other players for casual games, so im forced to play ranked.
Sometimes you need 3-4 of these Cards to keep Enforcers out of the Game and most decks wont have that many in their starter Hand.
Besides: Using Finisher like Jade Figure + Hero ability (Eithne) on a 6 health bronce unit just to keep them from killing your key-unity feels pretty brutal.
It is not by coincidence that more and more Scojatel-players use blathana swordmasters, playing their key-units at the very end of a game.
Faustus800;n9836461 said:
In order to kill all 3 (and not all decks run all 3 let alone have the chance to pull them) you need to deal 3x6 damage. That is really not that much especially since even if you kill only 2 you have done a big job since it for example means they can't instakill Iris.
And yes, if your key unit is in danger using anything goes, because as the name says it is your key unit...
As for the upper part of the post I ll just agree that we disagree and leave it at that
.nemirni;n9836611 said:In order to kill all 3 (and not all decks run all 3 let alone have the chance to pull them) you need to deal 3x6 damage. That is really not that much especially since even if you kill only 2 you have done a big job since it for example means they can't instakill Iris.
And yes, if your key unit is in danger using anything goes, because as the name says it is your key unit...
As for the upper part of the post I ll just agree that we disagree and leave it at that
Lock and thunder works, as well as a fair good range of gold/silver can help it. I think there are in fact enough removal we can run against NG enforcers for every faction, just a trade off between "tech against NG" or "optimal at own strategy".
I'm glad such card is not in skellige, other wise we will have to deal 6x6 damage, just like Discard Warlongship or savage bear patch before. According to my experience that's where the teching become a bit of joke.
Just had the pleasure of defeating a NG mill/reveal deck...he used Avallach 3/4 times. Yes, that's right....He revealed half my deck..... I'm glad I didn't need to use the toilet because this god damn tedious deck takes 15 minutes to finish against win or lose! Seriousy! PLEASE SORT THIS OUT CDPR.
People don't want to sit around waiting for another guy to play the same card (spies) 10/15 times! For the love of god haha
The player I just beat also milled my entire deck so in R3 my last card was a 14 STR DBS which had a shield/quensign. He had already revealed this card so I had to play first card, R3.
I only had one card in hand because he milled all the rest for me. They did their thing, changed a card and....... they forefelt. Didn't get a GG....what a surpise!
This was casual, I rarely play ranked these days.
People don't want to sit around waiting for another guy to play the same card (spies) 10/15 times! For the love of god haha
The player I just beat also milled my entire deck so in R3 my last card was a 14 STR DBS which had a shield/quensign. He had already revealed this card so I had to play first card, R3.
I only had one card in hand because he milled all the rest for me. They did their thing, changed a card and....... they forefelt. Didn't get a GG....what a surpise!
This was casual, I rarely play ranked these days.
Same deck I played a few days ago. Lasted at least 15 minites but I managed to remove his mill tools so he kind of lost his footing after that. Ran out of cards in r3, while he kept pulling a few more. Good thing is my brozes were stronger than his so he lost. No GGs for that guy.
Faustus800
So NG prevents Nekker spam and Skellige strengthen/resurrect mechanics means NG is OP? That's how it should work. A deck like Skellige shouldn't be allowed to spam strengthen mechanics, only to have them resurrected in last round making any removals useless. Or copying 5 Nekkers to be used as carryover and round 3 spamfest that get boosted with each consume, the deck they're used with.
The core of Nilfgaard spies are Enforcers. A 6 strength unit. They're incredibly easy to remove. Good thing about NG is that they can't revive their own units, unless they resurrect Skellige units from the opponents graveyard. But here's the issue. The priestesses get used mostly in round 2. Resurrecting an enforcer in round 2 is a bad idea, as it's a weak card by that point. So reviving enforcers, if even possible, won't do much.
NG is a good control deck. People have issues because it counters their spam decks (not calling you out here Faustus, just speaking in general) and it's why I like NG. It takes some forethought to use, you need to think ahead with every move when using enforcers and emissaries and it takes setup to use some stronger removal.
Faustus800
So NG prevents Nekker spam and Skellige strengthen/resurrect mechanics means NG is OP? That's how it should work. A deck like Skellige shouldn't be allowed to spam strengthen mechanics, only to have them resurrected in last round making any removals useless. Or copying 5 Nekkers to be used as carryover and round 3 spamfest that get boosted with each consume, the deck they're used with.
The core of Nilfgaard spies are Enforcers. A 6 strength unit. They're incredibly easy to remove. Good thing about NG is that they can't revive their own units, unless they resurrect Skellige units from the opponents graveyard. But here's the issue. The priestesses get used mostly in round 2. Resurrecting an enforcer in round 2 is a bad idea, as it's a weak card by that point. So reviving enforcers, if even possible, won't do much.
NG is a good control deck. People have issues because it counters their spam decks (not calling you out here Faustus, just speaking in general) and it's why I like NG. It takes some forethought to use, you need to think ahead with every move when using enforcers and emissaries and it takes setup to use some stronger removal.
Snake_Foxhounder;n9838211 said:
Nekker also need a good setup to run properly.
I have 4-5 Cards in my nekker deck to get one and still have bad draws. NG doesnt know this problem.
And you dont need to discuss with me whats OP and whats not, just click the link ive postet above and read the website and the Pro-Gamer comments to NG-Decks and the strongest power swing mechanics. Im by far not the first and only one who things that NG has the strongest mechanics. I just gave my personal opinion to this topic and it is not about Nekkers, spam or what decks shuld be allowed and what not.
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Faustus800;n9835351 said:
The deck I am using isn't in your link there and I am not afraid at all to play those two top tier decks. The game changes all the time. Don't just believe one websites opinion on the absolute best decks.
StrykerxS77x;n9838531 said:
Im using my own decks too.
Its always theese Hypes where 80% of the people play the same deck what bother me.
This is not the first time. Shortly after Updates you will see mostly weather decks and gold weathers, before some Youtubers come up with fency ideas and shortly after everyone is running the same Deck. In this case (Or Tier list) are 2 Tier 1 decks promoted. Same opponent decks, 5 times in a row.
Faustus800;n9838611 said:
Like the "new" Swim Spell-Ale-tael deck, that is infesting everything right now.
I can't stand this shit. Like, it's just so boring to play against the same stuff over and over again.
But I guess creativity is too much to ask...
Currently I do have a different NG deck and am playing it a decent success. I love the faction does have like, the deepest pool to create different but still efficient decks, thus, no use of nerfing them, just push some of the other factions archetypes too.
Nilfgaard Spies still wins when I face them roughly 60-70% of the time in ranked. No cards specifically I can say are overpowered, just the Nilfgaard Spies options are very good...they have too many different ways to generate spies on your board, so winning against them for me is a combination of hoping they have a bad starting hand and trying to disrupt their Impera forces as much as possible.