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Tempo Plays are Getting out of Hand [Saovine Patch Feedback: Part 2 - The Bad]

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  • Tempo Plays are Getting out of Hand [Saovine Patch Feedback: Part 2 - The Bad]

    In More Diversity Than Ever [Saovine Patch Feedback: Part 1 - The Good] we had the good stuff. Time to look at the things that can be improved. Actually, it isn't inherently bad, but it does limit the direction Gwent can take. And yes, it's a thing that has existed since open beta, but now I want to talk about it seeing as its getting more prevalent.

    Tempo plays are getting out of hand. This is partly a problem because of the coin flip not being fair. If you have to go first and the opponent has (more) carry-over, that very often leads to a loss of 1 card advantage. Fixing the coin flip, mitigates this problem. However, that's a discussion for a different thread. Here I want to talk about Gwent having too many swing cards and relying too much on it for its win condition. Swing cards come in two flavors: openers that push your opponent or finishers that crush your opponent.

    Openers That Push Your Opponent
    Especially after going first, when an opponent throws down 20 strength, you'll have to keep up otherwise you'll lose too much card advantage. This means you are forced to keep playing your stronger cards, meaning the opponent dictates your play. Only a few decks can survive losing 2 card advantage. When everyone starts power-playing, this will kill certain decks and tactics. Gwent shouldn't be a race to win, but rather a thought out turn-based strategy game, where speed (strength) isn't everything.

    Finishers That Crush Your Opponent
    The other side are the finishers, which can take many shapes and sizes. An interesting recent acquisition is the Swordmaster deck. While not having the classic carryover, like Olgierd, the deck hides the carryover in their hand, which is actually quite interesting. The flipside is that a very short 3rd round is often quite deadly with a 14 strength bronze doing 14 damage on top. Another new addition is the invigorated Nekkers, which basically scream: if you don't win the first round, the carry-over will blast you out of the 2nd one. These kind of finishers either force you to go deep in the 1st round and/or deep in the 2nd round.


    I am not saying decks are OP here because every deck has strong combos. I am just saying that for the top ladder, it limits the options as to what you can play.

  • #2
    Originally posted by 4RM3D View Post
    In [URL="https://forums.cdprojektred.com/forum/en/gwent/general-discussions-aa/9782881-more-diversity-than-ever-saovine-patch-feedback-part-1-the-good"] I am just saying that for the top ladder, it limits the options as to what you can play.
    I've never seen a card game where this isn't true. Typically, there are 3-5 decks that rise to the very highest levels of competitive play with everything else falling somewhere on a sliding scale to the bottom.

    Comment


    • #3
      Yeah, those tempo plays are the thing that is annoying me most and with every patch it seems to be getting more and more. I can see how some people might enjoy that but for me it's very problematic.

      Comment


      • #4
        What are you talking about? They definitely moved away from strong bronze finishers. /s

        The last few patches seem like part of a bigger patch/idea, added incrementally. Bronze power creep, gold immunity, etc.. Gwent is all over the place now. While we definitely have more deck diversity, the game doesn't know what it wants to be.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Snake_Foxhounder View Post
          They definitely moved away from strong bronze finishers.
          While you might not be serious, there is still something to point out; namely, that it depends on your definition of (bronze) finishers. You have swing cards like Fringilla and Succubus. However, I've taken the liberty of expanding a bit on the classic meaning. Carry-over can also be seen as a finisher in certain cases. The swordmasters definitely also fall into that category.

          The important distinction I've tried to make is dealing with the strength difference now versus dealing with its potential later. For example, you are on equal cards with your opponent and you have a small lead. Then you might normally decide to pass the round to get one card advantage, but if the opponent has a huge carry-over built up, then you probably rather want to force the opponent to pass or force him to go down 2 cards.

          In this case you don't have to power-play because you can't keep up, but rather because you fear the threat of want the opponent can do in the next round.

          Originally posted by Snake_Foxhounder View Post
          the game doesn't know what it wants to be.
          I feel like CDPR is exploring different options.
          Last edited by 4RM3D; 03-11-17, 18:18. Reason: clarification

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Snake_Foxhounder View Post
            What are you talking about? They definitely moved away from strong bronze finishers. /s
            The Swordmasters? They're usually 8+ power with 8+ removal...
            I wouldn't be surprised if they got a power cap or nerfing them to do half the damage.
            "Up and at 'em, lazy mingers! Ye'll sleep when ye're dead!"

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by OG.laloquaint View Post

              The Swordmasters? They're usually 8+ power with 8+ removal...
              I wouldn't be surprised if they got a power cap or nerfing them to do half the damage.
              I think it was meant to be sarcastic

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by OG.laloquaint View Post

                The Swordmasters nerfing them to do half the damage.
                great idea

                Comment


                • #9
                  I guess I'm the only one who thinks that Swordmasters are okay, compared to other bronzes these days.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I think Swordmasters aren't such an issue. It will only reach its full value if it has a target of the same strength, which is rare in most of the occasions. Also, to reach that kind of strength above 10 power, many low tempo bronzes and combos are required, like:
                    • Hawker Support - 6 power move;
                    • Vrihedd Dragoon - 7 power move;
                    • Ithlinne + Quenn Combo - 2 power, 6 with Roach;
                    I'm not facing that many Handbuff Scoia decks at 3500+ MMR, I believe the deck is pretty balanced as it is, but we'll have a brighter picture on the following days.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by 4RM3D View Post
                      I am not saying decks are OP here because every deck has strong combos. I am just saying that for the top ladder, it limits the options as to what you can play.
                      I agree with you. All the top tier combos have scaled too much in power. I believe a big good round of nerfs is required to bring those at the top down a bit so new strategies can emerge and compete.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by General17491 View Post

                        I think it was meant to be sarcastic
                        Lmao I realized that afterwards, oops )-:
                        "Up and at 'em, lazy mingers! Ye'll sleep when ye're dead!"

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by KasumiGoto View Post
                          I guess I'm the only one who thinks that Swordmasters are okay, compared to other bronzes these days.
                          The fact they arent all that standout is a good example of how bad bronze design is nowadays.

                          CDPR really need to start thinking more.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by KasumiGoto View Post
                            I guess I'm the only one who thinks that Swordmasters are okay, compared to other bronzes these days.
                            I think they are quite okay, their damage and strength doesn't come out of the blue and same as highly buffed Braen before, you rarely get the full strength if you go 10+ with them. Not to mention that CA is a must and not that sure to get.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by 4RM3D View Post
                              Gwent shouldn't be a race to win, but rather a thought out turn-based strategy game, where speed (strength) isn't everything.
                              I actually have to agree with you on this point, Gwent is supposed to be a strategy based game, as like all Card games, though rather different, but somehow, started to drift a bit from strategy and into a "let's see if you can keep up with this power swing eh?"
                              Originally posted by 4RM3D View Post
                              This is partly a problem because of the coin flip not being fair.
                              Link is provided, which has covered this point.
                              Originally posted by 4RM3D View Post
                              Fixing the coin flip, mitigates this problem.
                              Link is provided, which has covered this point.
                              In addition, if we talk about the coin flip issue of not being fair, I have given a suggestion to how it should be fixed?
                              Link will be provided below on a different thread, as talking about coin flip isn't the topic to the current problem.
                              https://forums.cdprojektred.com/foru...oin-flip/page8
                              > You will notice my suggestion at the very bottom of the page, not those above.
                              Last edited by byExeplar; 07-11-17, 16:00.

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