Gambling: Loot Boxes & Gwent

[4RM3D]

Gambling: Loot Boxes & Gwent

This topic isn't specifically about Gwent, but rather about all Online Collectible Card Games (CCG).

Preface
Throughout the years (some) game studios have tried to find new ways to generate profit. It all began with creating expansion packs to existing games. With the rise of the internet and the home user's increasing connection speed, it became easier to deliver content to the user. This resulted in games being released in an incomplete state. Bugs could easily be patched after the release and, more importantly, (day one) DLC was easy to make and deliver to turn an extra profit. This has gone as far as studios offering season passes from day one. But I like to think of a season pass as an incremental expansion. And then there is CDPR, who actually released a whole expansion (bigger than most average games) as a DLC.

Loot Boxes
The new trend in gaming is studios offering loot boxes, not only for multiplayer games but also singleplayer games. This was met with a lot of hostility in the gaming community, like the controversy surrounding Star Wars: Battlefront II. There is one genre in particular that was already using this concept long before loot boxes became a thing: the Online Collectible Card Games. That genre in particular might be the only one that doesn't have a choice regarding this matter other than switching to Living Card Games. Here's my first question: What will be the impact of the recent loot boxes controversy on the CCG genre in the future?

Gambling
To answer part of the question of what the impact of loot boxes is on the gaming scene. Various countries have already taken steps against these loot boxes by stating that it's gambling. China wants transparency about the drop-rate of items within the loot boxes. Shadowverse already shows the drop-rates. Seeing as Gwent is going big in China, I am wondering how this affects the game. Other countries, like the Netherlands forbid online gambling altogether, but allow loot boxes because they do not generate economic value to their users unlike gambling (e.g. Poker). Belgium wants to take it a step further by outlawing all loot boxes. What are the rules in your country regarding online gambling and loot boxes?

Final Thoughts
Loot boxes are a bad trend in the gaming industry. However, I don't see booster packs (in CCG) as the same thing. Maybe because it's inherent in the genre itself. As for whether or not it's gambling, well technically it is, but I do like the Dutch approach, stating that if it doesn't generate economic value to their users (like Poker), it's not classified as such. What do you think about loot boxes, whether or not booster packs are the same thing and how it relates to gambling?

 

[Lyserus]

Any “card game” will die from lacking profit if cards are sold indivisually...however I do think transparent drop rate （like China suggested）is not a bad thing

 

[TheShift]

Having Battlefront 2 since early release ...now almost 2 weeks in... EAs business model is THE WORST I've ever seen in a game...it is so rigged into p2w it's absolutely rediculous

CDPR has,I can safely say , a very good business model as far as Gwent goes, no need to worry

But with recent news of Thronebreakers push back
one can only wonder if it is because the light being shed on these practices

 

[scorba]

well in our country, probably as soon as they hear of this, they will just put a huge tax on microtransactions XD or they'll say you can only buy kegs through certain companies with government connections XD corrupt arseholes the lot of them.

anyway I hope this whole foolery won't put an end to CCGs because I kindof do like opening boosters.

 

[Noela]

I don't think it is an easy thing. As far as I know, in my country (Spain), a license is required to operate gambling houses/casinos; the same goes for online gambling, they need to be acredited and under a .es domain.
But those laws are directed to gambling games that involve the possibility of earning money. Gambling prizes have to pay taxes if the total (and anual) balance of winnings reaches 1000 euros. National lottery is taxed too (it would be automatically deducted from the prize at the moment of payment). But how do you tax a Premium Iorveth?
So, if my understanding of the law is correct, it would not be legal to sell loot boxes (in the case that they are considered the same as gambling) without a license, it couldn't be sold to minors (that's 18 years over there), and I suppose they would have to modify the law to accomodate the new reality.
So, who knows. It is a shame that it affects card games, but p2w is getting a bit out of hand? My husband was playing Shadow of War recently, and he didn't finish it, just watched the ending on youtube because he found the grinding gruesome...

 

[Tir_na_Lia]

Belgium declared they want to bring the lootboxes ban to EU level.

To make a long post short, I think CDPR will just use the system they currently use in China for EU or every other place where lootboxes could be problematic.

 

[Odious_T]

Something i've been wondering about for a while since spending a summer hooked on TeamFortress2 some years ago.
The TF2 Loot Chest economy there is probably familiar to most.
You gain the chests for free during play but must pay for keys to open them - you don't know the value of contents until you do... so it's clearly a form of gambling.
Add to that the fierce trading and profiteering that goes on in various servers and groups with exchange rates, proto-currencies like scrap and keys which have a fixed cash value and a tracked exchange rate for barter and it's easy to see why some administrations are wary..

All that said.. I used to collect Panini Soccer Cards back in 80's UK. I'd spend a comparable amount on sealed foil packs of five stickers, hoping for a fancy hologram of Gary Lineker or whatever - i'd have to swap or trash duplicates. All of those products were subject to standard retail tax and could be bought by anyone of any age.
Does Belgium consider those sorts of collectibles to be a form of gambling?

Fast-forward to 2017 and modern games companies will accept your donations of time or money.
I guess it's up to the player which is of more personal value at the time.

CDPR's Gwent sits on the line here, i think, F2P and just a little P2W.
You need the cards, and it'll take a LONG time to grind for them all but you can have fun playing before you're neck-deep in golds.
I bought the starter pack to show support and get going. 500 hours-in there's still a lot of cards i need but i'm unlikely to drop more coin to speed it up yet.

 

[TheShift]

Where EA stumbled was not the fact that they had loot boxes..those have been in games for quit some time now
their mistake was the in game grind is just unbelievable to get anywhere...someone laid a spreadsheet out of how long it would take to unlock everything in the game just by playing ..and it came to about 3000 plus hours..

yeah..you read that right ...3000 hours

the entire system is designed with 1 thing in mind..buy loot boxes.
that fact has made itself very clear 5 days after they shut down the way you can purchase crates with real money..
It's so rigged ...I can't even begin to explain it.

but you would know just by spending 8 hours of gameplay to earn 1 loot box...that pretty much gives the player jack and shit.

to answer 4RM3D question I'm in the U.S. and you can go to the corner gastation and gamble on slot machines or the local pub..

the fact that the U.S. has thrown it's hat in the ring is absurd

this country is built on greed

 

[Thrawnik]

the fact that the U.S. has thrown it's hat in the ring is absurd

this country is built on greed

Every society is build on greed ;p However, recently your Hawaii representatives took a stand against lootboxes as well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h03EY02y2WE
The speech starts ~2.27 and I recommend watching it in full because it's glorious
Lootboxes are a psychological manipulation of the highest order. It's great to see steps being taken against such practices.

 

[TheShift]

I seen this video this morning

why I said "I can't believe the U.S. has thrown it's hat in the ring "

kids go to the gastation to buy candy and see slot machines...

besides ... real gambling ...you loose money
loot boxes are set up in a way..that you always benefit from them one way or another

government regulation of such things should never be welcomed ...EVER

if I as an adult want to spend hundreds on something I enjoy..they don't have the right to tell me not to.

if it's because of children ..then that's easy..don't make it E for everyone or T for teen...

I don't need more government regulations telling me how to live my life

this in itself could make gaming and game company's to provide less content over the course of a games time.. devs need money to keep servers going and things running well..not to mention additions to games we all like.

it's a slippery slope the game devs now find themselves in..

 

[4RM3D]

While the topic I've started does have some political connotations, it wasn't my intent to focus on that, mostly because it's not allowed as stated in the forum guidelines. Explaining the regulations in your country is fine because it shows the situation you are in. But then the focus should shift towards what you personally think about loot boxes (gambling) in games and how much of it applies to Gwent.

 

[Pounc3e]

This topic isn't specifically about Gwent, but rather about all Online Collectible Card Games (CCG).

Preface
Throughout the years (some) game studios have tried to find new ways to generate profit. It all began with creating expansion packs to existing games. With the rise of the internet and the home user's increasing connection speed, it became easier to deliver content to the user. This resulted in games being released in an incomplete state. Bugs could easily be patched after the release and, more importantly, (day one) DLC was easy to make and deliver to turn an extra profit. This has gone as far as studios offering season passes from day one. But I like to think of a season pass as an incremental expansion. And then there is CDPR, who actually released a whole expansion (bigger than most average games) as a DLC.

Loot Boxes
The new trend in gaming is studios offering loot boxes, not only for multiplayer games but also singleplayer games. This was met with a lot of hostility in the gaming community, like the controversy surrounding Star Wars: Battlefront II. There is one genre in particular that was already using this concept long before loot boxes became a thing: the Online Collectible Card Games. That genre in particular might be the only one that doesn't have a choice regarding this matter other than switching to Living Card Games. Here's my first question: What will be the impact of the recent loot boxes controversy on the CCG genre in the future?

Gambling
To answer part of the question of what the impact of loot boxes is on the gaming scene. Various countries have already taken steps against these loot boxes by stating that it's gambling. China wants transparency about the drop-rate of items within the loot boxes. Shadowverse already shows the drop-rates. Seeing as Gwent is going big in China, I am wondering how this affects the game. Other countries, like the Netherlands forbid online gambling altogether, but allow loot boxes because they do not generate economic value to their users unlike gambling (e.g. Poker). Belgium wants to take it a step further by outlawing all loot boxes. What are the rules in your country regarding online gambling and loot boxes?

Final Thoughts
Loot boxes are a bad trend in the gaming industry. However, I don't see booster packs (in CCG) as the same thing. Maybe because it's inherent in the genre itself. As for whether or not it's gambling, well technically it is, but I do like the Dutch approach, stating that if it doesn't generate economic value to their users (like Poker), it's not classified as such. What do you think about loot boxes, whether or not booster packs are the same thing and how it relates to gambling?

Just to clarify, Online Collectable Card Games are NOT gambling rather are strategy based genre games. As well, All games in general are for enjoyment, fun and keeping you occupied. It is only gambling if you use money both out and inside of gaming.

On the other note, I think Gwent especially should be fine, as it does not break any of the guidelines, and as long as you are not playing it with money then it is okay, and then won't be gambling.

Regards,
byExeplar

:yes:

 

[gigabomb]

It's not gambling, but I think it stimulates the part of the brain that is rewarded by gambling. This is the reason most games have such a long, boring animation for opening the box.

The problem with lootboxes is always the same: a lack of control over the rewards. I wouldn't mind the price, if the rewards were more consistent.

It could be a lot worse: powerful cards behind a pay wall, ultra kegs that cost 5 times as much and have a slightly higher chance at rares, trading 10 kegs for 1 ultra keg, the ability to convert scrap to ore at a laughable rate, or kegs you can purchase at double the price that may give you cards before they are released to the rest of the players. There is a glut of researchers that can be hired very cheaply to stare at spreadsheets all day and conjure all sorts of reprehensible strategies.

There is nothing about how CDPR is handling Gwent that makes me feel like I need to take a shower after reading patch notes or watching a dev stream, and that is commendable, because there are a lot of people that are bad at math and have incredibly poor impulse control that are ripe for exploitation. CDPR has doubled the milling value for each card, and - even better - is going to give us ranked rewards each month instead of every other month, directly devaluing their own keg purchasing scheme. The bosses clearly believe in the vision the dev team has for the game, and is allowing it to build toward long term goals.

The sad state of things being that video games cost so much to develop, that many companies wouldn't even approve of games like this unless they have some sort of strategy to keep money rolling in. We are on the brink of losing huge, wonderful games like the Witcher 3 entirely because of how expensive games are to make, and how often they fail miserably despite the herculean effort put into making them.

 

[felixsylvaris]

In general: I am in favour of claiming for-cash-lootboxes a gambling, even cosmeticis. It would result in changing rating of some games from 16 to 18, or from teen to mature. Which is not an end of the world. Gambling is generally legal (at least in EU) just need to be marked as one. However ingame lootboxes (for match won) are fine.

Gwent: One way to think about it is that CCG are clear in stating what they are. Seeing cards in FIFA is a bit of suprise. But in GWENT is exacly what iti is.
One way is to mark it as age 18 game. Which is not that bad.
Other is to change monetization to buying fixed sets. Or mix of ingame lootbox, buy fixed sets, and buy dust.
Other: make paragraph about card games, that they are special case, but require information about drop rates.

 

[Noela]

I think the gambling bit was the thing that allowed tackling the problem without tackling the problem. Since the advent of online games, I've seen some messed up situations that can be only described as adictions. I have a friend who played Lineage a lot, leader of a guild, the whole package. For three years he just...disappeared, it was like that game was his whole life. I know it is not the same as lootboxes, but it is based on the same principle to "hook" people. When you monetize gaming beyond the fact that it is a product you can buy, the problem gets bigger. I'm sure all of you know how people spend a lot of money on in-game currency, or in mobile games. All p2w games require of gamers to spent money above the real monetary value of the game.

I don't think you can build a lawsuit around: "I have to grind a lot!" I don't think that's punishable by law. Even in the case where the game is literally designed in such a way that you can't enjoy the product you bought if you don't pay more. It is like you are paying for a sample, and then you have to pay more for the real thing. But you can build a lawsuit around undercover gambling, or you can make laws about it.

On the other hand, Gwent kegs already has somewhat of a fixed value; as somebody has said, maybe making droprates public would suffice. That way you know what you are buying: you are buying a % chance to have a Legendary, a Rare, etc., the same way that when I buy lottery for Christmas, I'm buying the chance to earn a sum of money already stated before I made the purchase.

And expect taxes. At least over there...

 

[Snake_Foxhounder]

Where EA stumbled was not the fact that they had loot boxes..those have been in games for quit some time now
their mistake was the in game grind is just unbelievable to get anywhere...someone laid a spreadsheet out of how long it would take to unlock everything in the game just by playing ..and it came to about 3000 plus hours..

yeah..you read that right ...3000 hours

the entire system is designed with 1 thing in mind..buy loot boxes.
that fact has made itself very clear 5 days after they shut down the way you can purchase crates with real money..
It's so rigged ...I can't even begin to explain it.

but you would know just by spending 8 hours of gameplay to earn 1 loot box...that pretty much gives the player jack and shit.

to answer 4RM3D question I'm in the U.S. and you can go to the corner gastation and gamble on slot machines or the local pub..

the fact that the U.S. has thrown it's hat in the ring is absurd

this country is built on greed

Dropped EA MP games after BF4 (too high-maintenance) but damn. Kinda glad I did.

I don't wanna fanboy here but it's funny how I keep on getting full decks in Gwent, after milling 3 factions at the start of OB, by just playing casually. And while CDPR priced kegs way too high, their F2P system is great.

 

[Mapandzap]

Gwent is childrens playground compared to some other games. You can collect all cards without paying. Read that top clash royal player spent about 12k in the game. Just creepy.
Anyone interested about this stuff should watch south park episode "freemium isnt free". Also, the book "addiction by design", by an MIT professor. Video lotteries and gaming have gone too close lately. In the book, it says some ppl that play video lotteries get sad when they win the jackpot, because it means they have to stop playing.
So ppl back CD Project red in this issue , in free to play and monetization matters they are very ethical compared to industry standards.
Of course publicing drop rates would be good.

 

[el_Bosco]

I'm 100% AGAINST any of these practices thats why i've never have and never will buy any micro-transactions in ANY game and i'm very very cautions on what concerns DLC's. On the other hand, i'd happily buy a game for 30-40€ if its worth it (just as I did with all the witchers and their dlc.

Wanna solve the problem? Instead of a F2P base game, just make it 30€ and keep the same ore system as it is (which is pretty user friendly: in the CB i've finished all the collection and despite not playing for a couple of months now in the OP i have pretty much all the cards that i want).

This F2P model with micro transactions is ruining the industry.

 

[Menelaus234]

Bit surprised about it being called a recent trend since they've been around for the past decade or so, but yes lootboxes in general are in no way healthy for paid games imo.

For f2p games like Gwent, these 'surprise mechanics' become more of a necessity though. Firstly because they need to make profits on their investment obviously. But secondly because they artificially extend the lifespan of the game by making players grind out the cards instead of just giving it to them like an lcg. This also buys the developers more time inbetween releases by giving players an artificial sense of progression and 'freshness.'

I'm not saying these practices are enjoyable or that they should be the norm just pointing out that most f2ps will have some form of timewall or paywall (usually both) and Gwent is no exception..

About the impact of lootbox controversies on Gwents future..the last controversy was about 3 years ago with EA iirc, and that was because EA got overly greedy. I dont think cdpr feels that type of societal pressure to change..i honestly don't expect anything to change with their model.. I don't expect them to turn b2p or lcg because that would mean providing quicker releases and higher quality content and with the current size and attitude of their team this just doesn't seem possible.

 

[Madlax1992]

Bit surprised about it being called a recent trend since they've been around for the past decade or so, but yes lootboxes in general are in no way healthy for paid games imo.

I think most people refer to it as a recent trend because it started becoming a noticeable problem in the past few years (5 years to be more precise). I remember the days when I worked as CSR for Microsoft's sales department and we didn't have that much of an issue with fraudulent micro-transactions until Fortnite was launched. That game pretty much increased our volumes by half the usual in the first 3-5 months and by roughly a third afterwards. The most common call we got was kids depleting their parent's bank accounts with micro-transactions, sometimes even spending in the thousands. These volumes were not even profitable, as it was all about refunds or long investigations.

EA is not only an extremely greedy corporation, but also lazy. Haven't played FIFA in a long time, but this strategy of launching a new FIFA game each year, with little improvements, each year packed with more shitty micro-transactions and loot boxes is an expression of laziness and greed. Most major gaming companies also adopted their model of business, albeit not of all of them went full on greediness.

Another extremely bad business model I can think of is Koei's doing with DoA5 and DoA6. For DoA5, the total cost of all DLC's available is over 20 times bigger than the price for the game (over 1000 euro). In the case of DoA6, I think it is 4 times higher than the cost all DLC's for DoA5 (over 4000 euro last time I checked). That's insane, and they aren't even loot boxes, the overwhelming majority are skimpy outfits. I believe this kind of business should be regulated, if not banned outright, particularly in games that are rated for younger audiences. The idea that some non-tangible in-game content can skyrocket to the cost of a car is ludicrous.

Gwent is not one of those greedy games, at least compared to EA/Koei. You do kinda need to spend some cash when you start the game in order to increase your card base and to gain a fair amount of scraps, but sooner or later you will hit the point where you do not need to go on a keg binge when your card base expands. After that, you can manage fine with scraps, free kegs, ore, etc.