The Issue of Spies

[ThuleD]

The Issue of Spies

Okay. it seems I will have to start another controversial topic, to put it politely. And it is going to be real hot this time - Spies, specifically "Draw a Card" spies are a subject of much outrage these days. However, while most people only noticed the issue recently with the introduction of Create cards, I think it actually runs much deeper.

So first, let me outline what the problem with the "Draw a Card" spies is in general. There are several aspects to it.

1. The biggest problem with them is coinflip abuse. Going straight into a spy from a won coinflip is an insane play. It leaves the opponent with two equally awful options - either playing 2 cards down or immediately forfeiting the round, giving the opponent full control of the game. The only way out is answering with your own spy, but that leaves you unable to regain the card advantage you lost from the coinflip, unless the opponent allows you to go into Round 2 on equal cards, and has no carryover - which is very rare in the current meta. This is by far the biggest issue with spies. Winning the coinflip with a spy in hand boosts your chances of winning by 20-30% percent it seems (especially if you are playing spy Nilfgaard who are insane at abusing Cantarella). Regrettably, I don't have the analytical tools to give you any concrete data, but if anybody with such tools comes across the thread I will be happy to see my guess proved or dismantled, since this is my biggest point here.

2. Another issue with spies is the reason for the latest outrage among the high-ranked players - the spy spam. With Create and Summoning Circle there can be as many as SEVEN (!) spies in a single game. The game was not balanced around it and it creates an incredibly volatile dynamic with the person able to spam more spies usually coming out on top. To add insult to injury it actually aggravates the first issue - spy spam reduces the ability of a person on the receiving end of the coinflip abuse to ever come back in the game since their opponent can deny them any additional card advantage, if they have carryover. This problem is by far the worst issue with the spies, but it is also the easiest to fix, unlike the first one.

3. The final point is the result of the first two. Right now, you have to run spies in every single deck you make. And in my opinion, that is not going to change. Even if the second issue is resolved, and we no longer can Summoning Circle or Create spies - everybody seem to have realized how broken spies really are. They can be abused in a very cheap and easy way, with only chance to counter that being a spy of your own. And as long as spies exist in the game in their current form, we will continue having this issue - run your spy or fall to cheap abuse from time to time. And nobody wants those cheap loses.

So what are the possible solutions to this problem?

My suggestion (I originally heard the idea from JJPasak, and modified it) is giving the first player a card in their starting hand (it is added to the hand, then the first player draws 9 cards) which says "Draw a Card, Summon a 13 Str unit for your opponent. If this card is Swapped, Banish it". That resolves the coinflip issue, giving the first player a tool to counter their card disadvantage if they want to. Combined with removing the spies from Summoning Circle and Create it will kinda restore the status quo, and make the game more balanced. However, the key word here is "kinda". The issue with that solution is that it will make spies absolutely mandatory for every deck in existence. Spies will allow the first player to abuse having 2 of them, and will allow the second player to sometimes deny coinflip reversal, making the whole thing pointless at random in some games.

So the only logical solution I see is... (deep breath) remove the spies from the game. ENTIRELY. Only leave the suggested pseudo-spy card for the first player. As long as the spies are in the game, they will always create unhealthy dynamics. Randomly having or not having them when the opponent has carryover can be deciding in many games, abuse with coinflip is awful and is impossible to stop as long as spies exist. In my opinion, spy cards are unhealthy for the game. I think CDPR should move away from the idea of "Draw a Card" spies entirely and limit card advantage cards to stuff like Ciri, Ocvist, and carryover units - cards which are actually counterable, which can be played around and create actual fun gameplay dynamics instead of incentivising cheap abuse and becoming absolutely necessary in all decks.

So let me know what you, people of the forums think about this, and let the flame (and hopefully some polite discussion as well) begin!

 

[OG.laloquaint]

I don't think Silver Spies should be removed from the game. They're strategic cards. It's obvious that CDPR overlooked the whole Summoning Circle, Runestone, Hym, Create, etcetera, problem.

The easiest way to fix this issue is to change those cards to prevent them from replaying or creating a Silver Spy. I think the ONLY card that should be able to replay a Silver Spy is Decoy, but that's just me.

I'm hoping that they will address this issue in the following weeks because it is very annoying.

 

[Wonderboy8700]

Your analysis of the issue is valid but I disagree with your solutions. First, the answer to fixing the coin flip should be either an extra mulligan or a change in Dynamics whereby the third round is started by the person who did not start the first round, (in other words if you start the first round you don't have to start the last round regardless of who wins the second round.) As for the silver spy cards the better solution is to make them gold. That fixes all the abuses, and while they are still quite valuable, there are so many awesome gold cards unique to each faction and synergy that having one is a sacrifice.

 

[4RM3D]

This is a good explanation as to why Silver Spies are an issue. I am sure CDPR is aware of this problem now. The only question remains, is when and how will they fix it.

 

[hydra66]

Change the silver spies into gold cards. If you want card advantage, pay a gold slot for them. It's a powerful enough effect to warrant it. Most of the spam abuse cards can't create or copy golds.

 

[ThuleD]

Change the silver spies into gold cards. If you want card advantage, pay a gold slot for them. It's a powerful enough effect to warrant it. Most of the spam abuse cards can't create or copy golds.

While on the surface, it is a reasonable decision, I think people will just keep running spies in every deck, meaning each deck will only have 3 gold slots which can be changed. Yeah, the abuse will be gone, but that's only one part of the issue. The advantage spies give you under certain circumstances is still unrasonable and it will still be unhealthy for the game.

 

[KingPegasus]

The actual issue is 13 PTS for a card. If spy is 25 points, you can't abuse it as much. Unless you won round 1 and spam multiple spies round 2 then yes. 13 points, a lot of bronze can do that these days. In the past, you need mostly a sliver to get it back. So the simplest solution is just to make sure spy is about 16 points.

 

[devivre]

The actual issue is 13 PTS for a card. If spy is 25 points, you can't abuse it as much. Unless you won round 1 and spam multiple spies round 2 then yes. 13 points, a lot of bronze can do that these days. In the past, you need mostly a sliver to get it back. So the simplest solution is just to make sure spy is about 16 points.

If a spy card is 25 it's borderline... most of the time unplayable for its true purpose or used for mulligan, reveal or consume, which would pretty much break the game (think about the 30 str. Spotters and several other cards that can profit from huge units...). Even 16 is terrible for the same reason.

So no, more strength is not the answer.

 

[4RM3D]

Another issue with spies is that the only counter against it is throwing down more spies (no matter the source, e.g. Summoning Circle). Spies counter themselves, in the same way Muzzle can counter another Muzzle. And this is actually not good game design. This is made worse by the broken coin flip. Losing the coin flip and not having a counter spy, usually means losing the game altogether. Because of this, spies have become mandatory.

So the simplest solution is just to make sure spy is about 16 points.

You are not looking at the bigger picture here. This could actually be a buff for NG. Besides, when you're bleeding the opponent, you care not about the strength of the spy.

 

[partci]

If a spy card is 25 it's borderline... most of the time unplayable for its true purpose or used for mulligan, reveal or consume, which would pretty much break the game (think about the 30 str. Spotters and several other cards that can profit from huge units...). Even 16 is terrible for the same reason...

Just... don't use this as an excuse, cause it sounds petty, as you can adjust this really easy by making such units to only target other loyal units.

 

[4RM3D]

Just... don't use this as an excuse, cause it sounds petty, as you can adjust this really easy by making such units to only target other loyal units.

That's besides the point. The thing is, you fix one thing, only to break another thing. And trying to fix that other thing, breaks yet something else. Thus you cannot simply suggest to do something without taking the consequences into considering what it might cause in other situations.

Going a bit deeper into this, CDPR pushed themselves into a corner when it comes to the freedom of creating new cards because of the ripple effect. For example, for every bronze spell they create, they have to think what would happen if it's doubled by Ithlinne. This ripple effect also extends to spies and it took a turn for the worse in the shape of spy chaining (among other things).

 

[Wonderboy8700]

I agree with 4rm3d that the ripple effects of new cards are at times problematic. Where this gets even worse is when you factor in the time between updates. Every faction has at least 2 builds that can win in rank 20 matches, but when you unbalance the game you take away the players freedom to play the decks they want and force netdecking to be competitive. That said, the concept of spies is fundamentally flawed. Cards like this make gwent even more about the cards you are lucky enough to get rather than plans you want to execute. At least by making it gold you limit the number of times it can be used.

As I said above, the way to fix this card is to fix the coin flip. Make gwent work like some pro sports games with who starts which turns pre specified and in no way random. If you win the coin flip you get to choose, start the first round or the last round. But the same player should never under any circumstances have to start both.

 

[ThuleD]

I agree with 4rm3d that the ripple effects of new cards are at times problematic. Where this gets even worse is when you factor in the time between updates. Every faction has at least 2 builds that can win in rank 20 matches, but when you unbalance the game you take away the players freedom to play the decks they want and force netdecking to be competitive. That said, the concept of spies is fundamentally flawed. Cards like this make gwent even more about the cards you are lucky enough to get rather than plans you want to execute. At least by making it gold you limit the number of times it can be used.

My point exactly - spies are mandatory and will remain mandatory, as far as I can tell. That is why I think spies should be removed altogether - we already have other card advantage cards working in much fairer way - which is exactly why nobody plays them with spies being a thing. Why bother with Ocvist when you can just slam down a spy? Why even try making Ciri work when a silver does the job better? And if you think about it - those cards are incredibly underpowered because spies are a thing. If spies were not in the game, you could easily make Ciri 8 power 6 armor or something like that, making her a competetive and fun card, instead of Alzur bait. I think people are a little bit stuck on the idea that there must be spies in Gwent, ignoring the fact that CA mechanics can be realized in other ways.

As I said above, the way to fix this card is to fix the coin flip. Make gwent work like some pro sports games with who starts which turns pre specified and in no way random. If you win the coin flip you get to choose, start the first round or the last round. But the same player should never under any circumstances have to start both.

This is a pretty good idea, but I don't like the fact that it kinda devalues controlling the flow of the game, by guaranteeing one of the players the second play in round three. I think it is good that losing round one has a severe consequence, otherwise the first two rounds would be less meaningful. Though you can still guarantee the last say by maintaining CA, so I don't really know...

 

[Wonderboy8700]

ThuleD. To clarify, the leader in round 2 is the winner in round 1, it is round 1 and 3 that are predetermined. Thus you know how you need to play to gain a CA.

 

[TheNotoriousThree]

Remove silver spies. Period. The coinflip is already a big issue and spies are just the cherry on the top. Why would you keep cards that make an already existing issue like the coinflip even worse? Here's my idea:

The only other card besides spies that "could" potentially give you card advantage is Ciri, which is a gold(!) card. If you want CA just run Ciri. There is your spy.
​​​​She can easily be removed though, which is perfect since gaining CA should have a high price and be a high risk.

 

[Tir_na_Lia]

This is a good explanation as to why Silver Spies are an issue. I am sure CDPR is aware of this problem now. The only question remains, is when and how will they fix it.

I would add: "If" they actually fix it.

The coinflip is the father/mother of most problems in Gwent, exists since early Closed Beta, yet it's still alive and well.
Spy spam/abuse is but the nth coinflip-dependant problem.
Problems should be solved at the root, once you discover and acknowledge them.

Instead of addressing it properly, they wasted time tampering with Gold Immunity, Agility, Create etc., the result that the game looks like it just entered Open Beta phase and it's worse than 6 months ago.

 

[4RM3D]

I would add: "If" they actually fix it.

It's already confirmed that Silver Spies are going to be changed in the upcoming patch. No details on how, though.

 

[Tir_na_Lia]

It's already confirmed that Silver Spies are going to be changed in the upcoming patch. No details on how, though.

I trust you, but I'd like to read the source directly, if you remember it.

 

[4RM3D]

I trust you, but I'd like to read the source directly, if you remember it.

There you go: https://www.reddit.com/r/gwent/comme...ning_cheaters/

There was a misunderstanding last night maybe caused by my wording, first of all let me apologize for the confusion. Now, let's sum up: we are currently working on a update which will fix all of the major issues including spy abuse, Emhyr bug and much more. Players, who are reported to our support will receive bans (after verification), players who disconnect multiple time and are 'tanking' MMR will receive bans, our policy regarding bug exploits has not changed in this matter. I just wanted to highlight that our main focus at the moment is to fix everything.

 

[ThuleD]

ThuleD. To clarify, the leader in round 2 is the winner in round 1, it is round 1 and 3 that are predetermined. Thus you know how you need to play to gain a CA.

Yeah, I got that, what I meant is if you win round 1, you get to go second round 3. Which makes round 1 really important, and I like that. As I said I am just not sure whether I like your idea or not without actually testing it.

Remove silver spies. Period. The coinflip is already a big issue and spies are just the cherry on the top. Why would you keep cards that make an already existing issue like the coinflip even worse? Here's my idea:

The only other card besides spies that "could" potentially give you card advantage is Ciri, which is a gold(!) card. If you want CA just run Ciri. There is your spy.
​​​​She can easily be removed though, which is perfect since gaining CA should have a high price and be a high risk.

There are many possibilities for making awesome and interesting CA cards, which would be different for each faction. For example - "Ambush: While face down, return to your hand if you are 25 or more points behind at the end of the turn. Flip when your opponent passes." - that would be a cool card for ST, which would create a really cool gameplay dynamic and mindgames with other ambush cards. And that's just something I came up within a minute of thinking - imaging how many cool designs can be created with actual brainstorming and testing. And all of them are currently impossible due to silver spies being a thing.