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The Issue of Spies

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  • #31
    You really haven't seen a suggestion as to how to fix the coin flip? I put "how to fix the coin flip gwent" into Google and the first page was full of ideas.
    Last edited by Jeydra; 15-01-18, 02:47.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by iamthedave View Post
      I keep seeing 'fix coin flip'. I've yet to hear a single suggestion as to how.
      One suggestion is literally in the opening post... And one or two others are in this thread alone.

      Coinflip can be fixed and should be fixed. Though I think the removal of spies will actually make the problem less severe by itself, additional measures are still necessary to ensure the game stays healthy in the future.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by iamthedave View Post
        I keep seeing 'fix coin flip'. I've yet to hear a single suggestion as to how.
        Suggestion for Coin Flip Replacement - mine EDIT: explained better here - https://forums.cdprojektred.com/foru...1#post10052901
        A simple coin flip solution back from the CBT
        Get Rid of Coin Flip for This New Mechanic Idea/Suggestion
        Read the Forum Regulations! This color means I am posting in my capacity as a moderator. Otherwise, feel free to ignore my random musings. Check out The Wild Hunt & The Forlorn Hope!

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        • #34
          Okay, my bad, I mis-spoke, I haven't seen any really good suggestions on how to fix the coinflip.

          The problem is less that the coinflip is bad, and more that whoever gets to play the last card has a massive advantage. Introducing extra mechanics to make people fight over who goes first/second doesn't change the in-built issue that whoever plays the last card has a massive advantage. THAT can only be fixed by a complete game overhaul and/or the introduction of secondary win conditions.

          Yes, an interactive element to the coinflip part would add an extra layer of gameplay, which is good, but I haven't seen any suggestions that actually FIX the problem, because you're dealing with a back-end issue (who plays last has the edge) by approaching it from the front end.

          Which is not to say that the coinflip shouldn't be overhauled, just that I don't think it would fix the issue like some people believe.

          Apologies for the misleading/overly brief post.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by iamthedave View Post
            Apologies for the misleading/overly brief post.
            No need for apologies, just trying to share the suggestions I've seen.

            Originally posted by iamthedave View Post
            but I haven't seen any suggestions that actually FIX the problem, because you're dealing with a back-end issue (who plays last has the edge) by approaching it from the front end.
            It's is an interesting problem with the gameplay design, because going last has turned out to be such a large advantage. I toyed around with suggesting something with value instead (so the player who goes first gets "initiative" a +1 in the base value of every card ... but ultimately I thought that would mess with the balance of the game too much, and even at +1 would probably be too much of an advanage for decks like dwarves that end up with 15 cards on the board in round 3.

            EDIT: Anyways ... we're probably swinging a bit too off topic. Be happy to discuss it more in one of the threads above.
            Read the Forum Regulations! This color means I am posting in my capacity as a moderator. Otherwise, feel free to ignore my random musings. Check out The Wild Hunt & The Forlorn Hope!

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            • #36
              Originally posted by iamthedave View Post
              The problem is less that the coinflip is bad, and more that whoever gets to play the last card has a massive advantage. Introducing extra mechanics to make people fight over who goes first/second doesn't change the in-built issue that whoever plays the last card has a massive advantage. THAT can only be fixed by a complete game overhaul and/or the introduction of secondary win conditions.
              I don't agree. Going second means you know where to apply your weather. It turns on your control cards (e.g. Iorveth is now worth 14 points, up from 7). And most importantly, it means you can play to win on equal cards, which is something you cannot do if you go first unless you have an unanswered spy.

              The last-play issue you describe is another way of saying that "whoever wins round 1 has a massive advantage", since the player who wins round 1 down a card (the most likely scenario) and drypasses round 2 is also the one that will have the last play of the game. But I don't find that to be really true - winning round 1 is certainly great since it lets me control the length of round 2 & go second in round 3, but it's not a big advantage most of the time.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by iamthedave View Post
                The problem is less that the coinflip is bad, and more that whoever gets to play the last card has a massive advantage. Introducing extra mechanics to make people fight over who goes first/second doesn't change the in-built issue that whoever plays the last card has a massive advantage. THAT can only be fixed by a complete game overhaul and/or the introduction of secondary win conditions.
                You can win your last play by getting card advantage in various ways - you can only reverse the coinflip if you have a spy and your opponent doesn't. And if you lose the coinflip and your opponent has a spy, you sometimes lose on the spot, and even if you don't the comeback is going to be really hard. That's the core of the coinflip issue, and how it is connected to the Spy problem.

                Which again brings me to my initial idea - remove spies from the game and only give the first player a pseudo-spy. That will allow the first player to reverse the coin and it will prevent abuse of the coin, making the game a lot more fair.

                As for the last play - it is advantageous, but overall it is not the be-all-end-all problem. If you win the last play, you get to play 1 card unanswered, which is really important for some Win-cons, like Ciri:Nova, which is actually pretty terrible if you don't have the last play since there are multiple answers to her. So playing Ciri: Nova requires you to execute a certain gameplan with suboptimal deck, making her balanced overall. Other similar win-cons like Xavier and Olaf function the same way - they just give less points since they don't require you to disrupt your deck. For most other win-cons, getting to go last... doesn't really matter. Jan Natalis+Horn? You can just play smart to avoid Scork hitting more than 1 unit. Paulie into Els into Dorf? - you likely have a unit larger than the dorf on board, if you don't you screwed up, and Scork doesn't even give that much value in this situation, anyway - 13 or so points is pretty weak. So yeah, the last play is not so much of an issue, it just allows you to play some wincons safely, and get maximum value out of Scork. Otherwise it's not very impactful, so I don't think it is the part of the problem we should be focusing on.

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                • #38
                  Save that it also allows you to REACT to other people's wincons. The last play is enormously impactful. In a game where 'most points wins' the one who has the last opportunity to influence that number has a huge advantage. Beating someone in this game if you don't have the last play usually means getting 40+ points ahead, split across numerous bodies, before then. If you can do that, your deck is simply more powerful and theirs probably couldn't beat yours on its best day (nekker consume left unmolested, for example, will usually pull this; that deck can win if it goes two cards down on turn 1 if you don't mess with it).

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                  • #39
                    Make this cards 15points at least, because i lost coinflip and played ancient foglet, oponent cantarela,me pass, he Nova!!!
                    I hate gwent!!!

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by iamthedave View Post
                      Save that it also allows you to REACT to other people's wincons. The last play is enormously impactful. In a game where 'most points wins' the one who has the last opportunity to influence that number has a huge advantage. Beating someone in this game if you don't have the last play usually means getting 40+ points ahead, split across numerous bodies, before then. If you can do that, your deck is simply more powerful and theirs probably couldn't beat yours on its best day (nekker consume left unmolested, for example, will usually pull this; that deck can win if it goes two cards down on turn 1 if you don't mess with it).
                      No, the last play isn't enormously impactful. It's only enormously impactful if your defense against your opponent's win condition is to kill it (e.g. Scorch vs. Ciri: Nova). If your win condition is to play your own win condition, then whoever plays the win condition second barely matters.

                      It's not true that beating someone in this game if you don't have last play usually means [what you described]. If it were, losing round 1 would be a death sentence, except it usually isn't. Heck, I've won games after drypassing round 1.

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                      • #41
                        Because who wins round 1 doesn't matter as much as who wins round 2. That is self-evident.

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                        • #42
                          ... ? Knowing the winner of round 1 allows the winner of round 2 to be predicted, since if the same player wins rounds 1 & 2 there won't be a round 3. That is self-evident too.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Wonderboy8700 View Post
                            Your analysis of the issue is valid but I disagree with your solutions. First, the answer to fixing the coin flip should be either an extra mulligan or a change in Dynamics whereby the third round is started by the person who did not start the first round, (in other words if you start the first round you don't have to start the last round regardless of who wins the second round.) As for the silver spy cards the better solution is to make them gold. That fixes all the abuses, and while they are still quite valuable, there are so many awesome gold cards unique to each faction and synergy that having one is a sacrifice.
                            One of those gives the player going second more efficient mulligans as they know they are going second now while the player going first gets diminishing returns on the 4th mulligan. The other solution is just an elaborate way of flipping the coinflip problem and delaying it to round 3. Gold CA spies are probably not competitive.

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                            • #44
                              senatormolotov, I think you misunderstood my suggestions. The first suggestion was that after the coin flip, the loser (player who is going first) get 1 (or more) additional mulligan (the player going second does not get the extra mulligan) to help balance the disadvantage of going first.

                              My second suggestion is a system whereby no player can ever be forced to start the first and last round. The idea is that the winner of the coin flip gets a choice, if they start the first round then they will not start the last round. In theory this allows both players to plan for their respective disadvantages and try to compensate.

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                              • #45
                                I just played this game:

                                Me Francesca vs. him Henselt

                                Round 1
                                Turn 0: He loses the coin flip and has to go first. I mulligan two Wardancers (opponent cannot drypass).
                                Turn 1: He plays Alzur's Double Cross for Ronvid. I play Yaevinn.
                                Turn 2: He plays Thaler. I play Summoning Circle.
                                Turn 3: He passes (if he didn't pass I would have). I Scorch and win the round on even cards.

                                Round 2
                                I drypass. He has to play something, and we go into round 3 with me up a card + him going first.

                                Round 3
                                He plays something. I play Ida applying Fog. He concedes.

                                CDPR, games like this are extremely demoralizing. They are completely won by spy wars + the coin flip. I didn't beat my opponent; the RNG did. There is nothing he could've done to win the game. Even the standard "get out of the coin flip free" card aka. drypass round 1 doesn't work because of the Wardancers.

                                When the game is over with 10+ cards left to play, there is a problem. Please fix spies and the coin flip. I consider it more urgent than adding new cards.

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