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Tremors is Broken

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  • #16
    Ithlinne has her drawbacks too. She is often very bad in a short round 3 (even if a deck runs Alzurs + Tremors the Tremors are often the only option left) and Tremors are the only good answer to "simply swarm the board and then Yennefer" - play which would be very popular without Ithlinne.

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    • #17
      Maybe tremors shouldn't have the spawn thing. Other then that, I see no problem with this card specifically. Ithlinne tho must be addressed because with any new bronze spell added to the game, it can break.

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      • #18
        I don't think Tremors is extremely OP, though it is a power card against dwarves since there are so many low powered cards. Against most other decks it normally gets 10-15 power depending if you get the guardian out of it in the best of circumstances (which ranges from decent-ish to great for a bronze).

        I do think axemen should have their starting power reduced a smidge. And I think Ithlinne should be 1 power instead of 2.
        Read the Forum Regulations! This color means I am posting in my capacity as a moderator. Otherwise, feel free to ignore my random musings. Check out The Wild Hunt & The Forlorn Hope!

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Rawls View Post
          I don't think Tremors is extremely OP, though it is a power card against dwarves since there are so many low powered cards. Against most other decks it normally gets 10-15 power depending if you get the guardian out of it in the best of circumstances (which ranges from decent-ish to great for a bronze).

          I do think axemen should have their starting power reduced a smidge. And I think Ithlinne should be 1 power instead of 2.
          Essentially this. Ithlinne paired with Tremors is extremely situational, and CAN be a 'God' play against certain deck types who throw that hand out, greeding for Round 1. Most notably against Dwarves and non-Nekker monster decks. Otherwise Tremors is a dead card, that is always out valued by a 20 value Alzur+Ithlinne and as a double removal, which undeniably is FAR more consistent.

          Ithlinne has already been nerfed enough, now that she can't double up Alchemy effects.
          Last edited by Karfuss; 17-01-18, 18:56.

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          • #20
            I think the only change Tremors needs is to have Lesser Guardian replaced with a Lesser D'ao or Imperial Golem. Ithlinne is a more serious problem than this card as any card that is 'balanced' becomes overtuned with her due to her design.

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            • #21
              The thing is that the Ithlinne combo isn't just good against swarm decks, but it's almost a guaranteed win against most decks that run deck thinning cards like Reaver Scouts. As much as I hate spell decks, I wouldn't want to change her ability. I would prefer if Tremors was limited somehow or did something else altogether.
              I do not know who the gentleman in my profile picture is, but he is holding a dog. I like dogs.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Karfuss View Post
                I have to disagree. Ithlinne & Tremor is ST's ONLY answer to decks that attempt to fill the board such as Monsters and Dwarves, and ONLY gets value from a deep greedy round 1. It is already weak against NR and SK by default.

                You remove that, and every ST that isn't already playing Dwarves is going to play Dwarves. Dwarf decks will run Ciri: Nova to replace Ithlinne for the Round 1 tempo and hold on to Paulie for the finisher, as they already do. Ithlinne & Tremor isn't THAT powerful in comparison to other tempo swings, and killing the Spelltael archetype is not worth it. Ithlinne has been nerfed enough.
                "Only" answer goes too far. Lacerate is also a possibility, always has been.

                To say Ithlinne + Tremors isn't that powerful is like saying you've never seen it in action before. When the Ithlinne is worth over 35 points, even calling it "pretty powerful" is a gross understatement. Even against decks that don't play many units, Ithlinne can cast Alzur's Thunder and be worth ~20 points, which is still good for a gold card. I think Ithlinne is the strongest gold in the game right now.
                Last edited by Jeydra; 17-01-18, 21:56.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Jeydra View Post

                  "Only" answer goes too far. Lacerate is also a possibility, always has been.

                  To say Ithlinne + Tremors isn't that powerful is like saying you've never seen it in action before. When the Ithlinne is worth over 35 points, even calling it "pretty powerful" is a gross understatement. Even against decks that don't play many units, Ithlinne can cast Alzur's Thunder and be worth ~20 points, which is still good for a gold card. I think Ithlinne is the strongest gold in the game right now.
                  An ST is not using Lacerate if they have Ithlinne. It's their only answer without severely gimping their mulligan.

                  If you're against an ST, you know you're against an Ithlinne. You know she'll punish you hard for greeding Round 1. Plan your game accordingly.

                  Bleed and take the card advantage round 1, force Ithlinne round 2 (guaranteed to happen since she has little to no value R3), then proceed as normal with R3. She will only punish your own playstyle, your own mistake. Play around her and you've made her a dead gold. Also, be clever with buffing your cards. NEVER have both a 1 point minion, and a 2 point minion at the same time. Using CH on 3-4 cards has more value in the long run, then allowing her to summon 2 x 6 alongside Tremor.

                  If they've played it well and got your cards that low, it's still worth for you. They've given you card advantage. And a ~20 value Ithlinne is outshone by almost every other competitive gold card out there, it's far far easier to deal with.
                  Last edited by Karfuss; 18-01-18, 05:34.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Karfuss View Post
                    If you're against an ST, you know you're against an Ithlinne.
                    In a parallel universe where Ithlienne+Tremors doesn't provide 40+ point swings, you don't. It fits every single ST archetype because it doesn't require any setup or synergy with other cards you have. Don't tell me that enemy having 1-2 point units on board requires any preperation and any kind of intelligence. ALL decks have them. Unless you are running armor NR or a heavily buffed consume, there is no way to avoid it. Just puff-puff and there you are. Have your heavy swings. Bon appetit.
                    "None shall pass"

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by altaybek View Post

                      In a parallel universe where Ithlienne+Tremors doesn't provide 40+ point swings, you don't. It fits every single ST archetype because it doesn't require any setup or synergy with other cards you have. Don't tell me that enemy having 1-2 point units on board requires any preperation and any kind of intelligence. ALL decks have them. Unless you are running armor NR or a heavily buffed consume, there is no way to avoid it. Just puff-puff and there you are. Have your heavy swings. Bon appetit.
                      Not quite every single archetype - a deck running Ciri: Nova can't make good use of Ithlinne. It would have to either run 2x Alzur's Thunder and restrict Ithlinne to being worth 20 points at most with a much worse fail case, or run 2x Tremors and risk Ithlinne being subpar against certain archetypes like armor. I suppose one could run 2x Alzur's Thunder + 2x Tremors, but that really stresses the mulligan.

                      Also no, not every deck runs 1-2 point units e.g. Eredin.

                      Ithlinne is overpowered, but get the facts right.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by altaybek View Post

                        In a parallel universe where Ithlienne+Tremors doesn't provide 40+ point swings, you don't. It fits every single ST archetype because it doesn't require any setup or synergy with other cards you have. Don't tell me that enemy having 1-2 point units on board requires any preperation and any kind of intelligence. ALL decks have them. Unless you are running armor NR or a heavily buffed consume, there is no way to avoid it. Just puff-puff and there you are. Have your heavy swings. Bon appetit.
                        It doesn't if you play around it. There are so, SO many ways to scupper that vastly over exaggerated point swing. 14+ minions on the board, WITH 1-2 minions? Either you're playing Bear SK, in which case my condolences, there's a reason it's fallen out of meta. Dwarves, perhaps, if you by some miracle didn't have Cranmer and I say deserved. Otherwise I sincerely doubt that.

                        You've already identified TWO factions, out of 5, that makes Ithlinne a dead card. It's also pretty poor against NG for their reliance on buff-damage tempo over board swarm, and it's terrible against every ST deck that isn't Dwarves for the same reason, and it's bad against Nekker for the same. So she's only worth ~20 maximum in most meta match-ups anyway.

                        Play smart, don't buff up single cards (which is bad anyway because G:Igni, Iorveth: Medi, Schirru and just a base Scorch). There's a reason high MMR players stagger their buffs, don't overdo it and try not to overplay 20 points on each lane until finish. Literally Commander Horn on three-four on a lane with 1-2 cards, is more value for you in the long run. Passing up mid Round 1, is more value for you because Ithlinne falls off Round 2 and tremors is dead Round 3. If an ST enters Round 3 with either Tremors or Ithlinne in hand, it's a near guaranteed win.



                        Last edited by Karfuss; 19-01-18, 04:34.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Jeydra View Post

                          Not quite every single archetype
                          Who is using Ithlienne?

                          For 4250+ MMR:

                          91.1% of Brouver players
                          61.5% of Eithne players
                          55.3% of Francesca players

                          You may argue that more than 90% of NR players (regardless of leader) use Shani but that's because she provides the only revive mechanic in NR. (and her only difference from Sgrdrifa is mere 2 points and some pity armor. Funny right?)

                          Running 2 Alzurs and 2 Tremors is not problematic at all when you are using Nova. You won't be using trio cards and worst case scenario, you have one of the spells at hand. No big deal.

                          All ST decks have interaction with the other side of the board (i.e control). It doesn't require any special effort to provide 1-2 point units for a full Ithy value. You can leave your mouse on the table and 5 mins later you will see ST autopiloting to victory. That's why it's broken.
                          "None shall pass"

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Jeydra View Post
                            Agree with Strykerx here. Tremors on its own isn't overpowered - sure it's super strong in long rounds, but so is Lacerate, Hailstorm, and so on. Meanwhile it's very much crap in short rounds. In my experience, Lacerate is significantly more common than Tremors in Axemen, and if they run Tremors they only run one copy.

                            Ithlinne + Tremors however is a different matter. In long rounds this will often be worth 40+ points (you have other cards to set up 1-strength and 2-strength units as well). Further, it's not like Ithlinne is dead if you end up in a short round. All you need to do is add Alzur's Thunder, and Ithlinne is still worth up to 20 points (unless you're in a literal topdeck war, in which case Ithlinne might only have one target with Alzur's Thunder).

                            The easiest way out of this is to make Ithlinne not able to cast Tremors. That might make Ithlinne very one-dimensional though, since Alzur's Thunder would be the only spell worth casting. Still a strong card, but very one-dimensional.
                            Yeah assuming you won the first round. If they won the first round she’s only two points or zero with Alzur’s thunder.

                            And making specific bans like that “play a bronze spell from your deck except tremors and spawn a copy” is a terrible idea. Tremors isn’t overpowered. It’s only effective with Ithline and she’s only effective in long rounds. There is nothing stopping you from passing.

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                            • #29
                              Please understand, I wrote a few posts ago that I consider Ithlinne the current strongest gold in the game. So yes, I agree it's broken. But to say that every deck can use her is not quite true (in the same way it's not correct to say Ciri: Nova can be inserted into every deck with no cost like certain people are arguing in the other thread), and neither is it fair to say enemy having 1-2 points units doesn't require preparation. What is fair to say is that Ithlinne can be inserted into most non-Ciri: Nova decks with little cost, and setting units up to have 1-2 points is not hard. You don't need to play bad cards to get enemy units to 1-2 points - something like Elven Scout into Elven Archer, or even Iorveth: Meditation, can get you there.

                              EternalJxx - if you topdeck Ithlinne in round 3 in a 1 card vs. 1 card situation, you can hopefully still cast Tremors, so she's a minimum of two points.

                              Making Ithlinne unable to cast Tremors doesn't need a specific ban - just change Tremors' type.
                              Last edited by Jeydra; 19-01-18, 06:17.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by EternalJxx View Post

                                Yeah assuming you won the first round. If they won the first round she’s only two points or zero with Alzur’s thunder.

                                And making specific bans like that “play a bronze spell from your deck except tremors and spawn a copy” is a terrible idea. Tremors isn’t overpowered. It’s only effective with Ithline and she’s only effective in long rounds. There is nothing stopping you from passing.
                                This, in far less words than my own.

                                You know you're against ST. You know you're against an Ithlinne+Tremors play. Going deep with a swarm the board type deck, isn't a good idea.

                                Ithlinne has decreasing value as games go on. Passing mid round turns Ithlinne into a mulligan worthy card. She's worth ~20 points at best against most meta decks, and only really shines against Skellige revive and Dwarves. Drawing Ithlinne or Tremors Round 3 is game over for ST. Plan for it, play around it, and they've wasted a gold slot through your smart plays.

                                Hell, against armour NR she's useless either way. Alzur or Tremor.
                                Last edited by Karfuss; 19-01-18, 09:01.

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