Tremors is Broken

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The thing is that the Ithlinne combo isn't just good against swarm decks, but it's almost a guaranteed win against most decks that run deck thinning cards like Reaver Scouts. As much as I hate spell decks, I wouldn't want to change her ability. I would prefer if Tremors was limited somehow or did something else altogether.
 
Karfuss;n10268882 said:
I have to disagree. Ithlinne & Tremor is ST's ONLY answer to decks that attempt to fill the board such as Monsters and Dwarves, and ONLY gets value from a deep greedy round 1. It is already weak against NR and SK by default.

You remove that, and every ST that isn't already playing Dwarves is going to play Dwarves. Dwarf decks will run Ciri: Nova to replace Ithlinne for the Round 1 tempo and hold on to Paulie for the finisher, as they already do. Ithlinne & Tremor isn't THAT powerful in comparison to other tempo swings, and killing the Spelltael archetype is not worth it. Ithlinne has been nerfed enough.

"Only" answer goes too far. Lacerate is also a possibility, always has been.

To say Ithlinne + Tremors isn't that powerful is like saying you've never seen it in action before. When the Ithlinne is worth over 35 points, even calling it "pretty powerful" is a gross understatement. Even against decks that don't play many units, Ithlinne can cast Alzur's Thunder and be worth ~20 points, which is still good for a gold card. I think Ithlinne is the strongest gold in the game right now.
 
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Jeydra;n10272142 said:
"Only" answer goes too far. Lacerate is also a possibility, always has been.

To say Ithlinne + Tremors isn't that powerful is like saying you've never seen it in action before. When the Ithlinne is worth over 35 points, even calling it "pretty powerful" is a gross understatement. Even against decks that don't play many units, Ithlinne can cast Alzur's Thunder and be worth ~20 points, which is still good for a gold card. I think Ithlinne is the strongest gold in the game right now.

An ST is not using Lacerate if they have Ithlinne. It's their only answer without severely gimping their mulligan.

If you're against an ST, you know you're against an Ithlinne. You know she'll punish you hard for greeding Round 1. Plan your game accordingly.

Bleed and take the card advantage round 1, force Ithlinne round 2 (guaranteed to happen since she has little to no value R3), then proceed as normal with R3. She will only punish your own playstyle, your own mistake. Play around her and you've made her a dead gold. Also, be clever with buffing your cards. NEVER have both a 1 point minion, and a 2 point minion at the same time. Using CH on 3-4 cards has more value in the long run, then allowing her to summon 2 x 6 alongside Tremor.

If they've played it well and got your cards that low, it's still worth for you. They've given you card advantage. And a ~20 value Ithlinne is outshone by almost every other competitive gold card out there, it's far far easier to deal with.
 
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Karfuss;n10274072 said:
If you're against an ST, you know you're against an Ithlinne.

In a parallel universe where Ithlienne+Tremors doesn't provide 40+ point swings, you don't. It fits every single ST archetype because it doesn't require any setup or synergy with other cards you have. Don't tell me that enemy having 1-2 point units on board requires any preperation and any kind of intelligence. ALL decks have them. Unless you are running armor NR or a heavily buffed consume, there is no way to avoid it. Just puff-puff and there you are. Have your heavy swings. Bon appetit.
 
altaybek;n10281142 said:
In a parallel universe where Ithlienne+Tremors doesn't provide 40+ point swings, you don't. It fits every single ST archetype because it doesn't require any setup or synergy with other cards you have. Don't tell me that enemy having 1-2 point units on board requires any preperation and any kind of intelligence. ALL decks have them. Unless you are running armor NR or a heavily buffed consume, there is no way to avoid it. Just puff-puff and there you are. Have your heavy swings. Bon appetit.

Not quite every single archetype - a deck running Ciri: Nova can't make good use of Ithlinne. It would have to either run 2x Alzur's Thunder and restrict Ithlinne to being worth 20 points at most with a much worse fail case, or run 2x Tremors and risk Ithlinne being subpar against certain archetypes like armor. I suppose one could run 2x Alzur's Thunder + 2x Tremors, but that really stresses the mulligan.

Also no, not every deck runs 1-2 point units e.g. Eredin.

Ithlinne is overpowered, but get the facts right.
 
altaybek;n10281142 said:
In a parallel universe where Ithlienne+Tremors doesn't provide 40+ point swings, you don't. It fits every single ST archetype because it doesn't require any setup or synergy with other cards you have. Don't tell me that enemy having 1-2 point units on board requires any preperation and any kind of intelligence. ALL decks have them. Unless you are running armor NR or a heavily buffed consume, there is no way to avoid it. Just puff-puff and there you are. Have your heavy swings. Bon appetit.

It doesn't if you play around it. There are so, SO many ways to scupper that vastly over exaggerated point swing. 14+ minions on the board, WITH 1-2 minions? Either you're playing Bear SK, in which case my condolences, there's a reason it's fallen out of meta. Dwarves, perhaps, if you by some miracle didn't have Cranmer and I say deserved. Otherwise I sincerely doubt that.

You've already identified TWO factions, out of 5, that makes Ithlinne a dead card. It's also pretty poor against NG for their reliance on buff-damage tempo over board swarm, and it's terrible against every ST deck that isn't Dwarves for the same reason, and it's bad against Nekker for the same. So she's only worth ~20 maximum in most meta match-ups anyway.

Play smart, don't buff up single cards (which is bad anyway because G:Igni, Iorveth: Medi, Schirru and just a base Scorch). There's a reason high MMR players stagger their buffs, don't overdo it and try not to overplay 20 points on each lane until finish. Literally Commander Horn on three-four on a lane with 1-2 cards, is more value for you in the long run. Passing up mid Round 1, is more value for you because Ithlinne falls off Round 2 and tremors is dead Round 3. If an ST enters Round 3 with either Tremors or Ithlinne in hand, it's a near guaranteed win.



 
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Jeydra;n10281192 said:
Not quite every single archetype

Who is using Ithlienne?

For 4250+ MMR:

91.1% of Brouver players
61.5% of Eithne players
55.3% of Francesca players

You may argue that more than 90% of NR players (regardless of leader) use Shani but that's because she provides the only revive mechanic in NR. (and her only difference from Sgrdrifa is mere 2 points and some pity armor. Funny right?)

Running 2 Alzurs and 2 Tremors is not problematic at all when you are using Nova. You won't be using trio cards and worst case scenario, you have one of the spells at hand. No big deal.

All ST decks have interaction with the other side of the board (i.e control). It doesn't require any special effort to provide 1-2 point units for a full Ithy value. You can leave your mouse on the table and 5 mins later you will see ST autopiloting to victory. That's why it's broken.
 

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Jeydra;n10268552 said:
Agree with Strykerx here. Tremors on its own isn't overpowered - sure it's super strong in long rounds, but so is Lacerate, Hailstorm, and so on. Meanwhile it's very much crap in short rounds. In my experience, Lacerate is significantly more common than Tremors in Axemen, and if they run Tremors they only run one copy.

Ithlinne + Tremors however is a different matter. In long rounds this will often be worth 40+ points (you have other cards to set up 1-strength and 2-strength units as well). Further, it's not like Ithlinne is dead if you end up in a short round. All you need to do is add Alzur's Thunder, and Ithlinne is still worth up to 20 points (unless you're in a literal topdeck war, in which case Ithlinne might only have one target with Alzur's Thunder).

The easiest way out of this is to make Ithlinne not able to cast Tremors. That might make Ithlinne very one-dimensional though, since Alzur's Thunder would be the only spell worth casting. Still a strong card, but very one-dimensional.

Yeah assuming you won the first round. If they won the first round she’s only two points or zero with Alzur’s thunder.

And making specific bans like that “play a bronze spell from your deck except tremors and spawn a copy” is a terrible idea. Tremors isn’t overpowered. It’s only effective with Ithline and she’s only effective in long rounds. There is nothing stopping you from passing.
 
Please understand, I wrote a few posts ago that I consider Ithlinne the current strongest gold in the game. So yes, I agree it's broken. But to say that every deck can use her is not quite true (in the same way it's not correct to say Ciri: Nova can be inserted into every deck with no cost like certain people are arguing in the other thread), and neither is it fair to say enemy having 1-2 points units doesn't require preparation. What is fair to say is that Ithlinne can be inserted into most non-Ciri: Nova decks with little cost, and setting units up to have 1-2 points is not hard. You don't need to play bad cards to get enemy units to 1-2 points - something like Elven Scout into Elven Archer, or even Iorveth: Meditation, can get you there.

EternalJxx - if you topdeck Ithlinne in round 3 in a 1 card vs. 1 card situation, you can hopefully still cast Tremors, so she's a minimum of two points.

Making Ithlinne unable to cast Tremors doesn't need a specific ban - just change Tremors' type.
 
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EternalJxx;n10281302 said:
Yeah assuming you won the first round. If they won the first round she’s only two points or zero with Alzur’s thunder.

And making specific bans like that “play a bronze spell from your deck except tremors and spawn a copy” is a terrible idea. Tremors isn’t overpowered. It’s only effective with Ithline and she’s only effective in long rounds. There is nothing stopping you from passing.

This, in far less words than my own.

You know you're against ST. You know you're against an Ithlinne+Tremors play. Going deep with a swarm the board type deck, isn't a good idea.

Ithlinne has decreasing value as games go on. Passing mid round turns Ithlinne into a mulligan worthy card. She's worth ~20 points at best against most meta decks, and only really shines against Skellige revive and Dwarves. Drawing Ithlinne or Tremors Round 3 is game over for ST. Plan for it, play around it, and they've wasted a gold slot through your smart plays.

Hell, against armour NR she's useless either way. Alzur or Tremor.
 
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Karfuss;n10282102 said:
Ithlinne has decreasing value as games go on. Passing mid round turns Ithlinne into a mulligan worthy card. She's worth ~20 points at best against most meta decks, and only really shines against Skellige revive and Dwarves. Drawing Ithlinne or Tremors Round 3 is game over for ST. Plan for it, play around it, and they've wasted a gold slot through your smart plays.
Every player has 10 cards in the hand +1 leader and draws 3 additional cards in the later rounds, which makes 14 cards to be played from hand in total. That means there has to be at least one round, where a player plays 5 cards from the hand. And except spell'tell that means 5 cards on the board. With cards like Reaver Scout, its equivalents from other factions, Ceate cards and cards like Golem and Clan An Craite Warrior, for mostly all decks 1 played card from the hand gives the player on average > 0.5 additional cards. This of course excludes spam decks.

So for normal decks, we get that there exists one round where at least 8 cards are played. So Ithlinne + Tremor generates 18 power against a normal deck, even if no Lesser Guardian is spawned.
And a minimum power of 18 against normal decks is a lot above average for golds. The only condition is for a player to not mess up his mulligans in the later rounds, but that can be applied to a lot of golds. If you don't get her in a short round 3 don't mulligan at all, and else mulligan her.
 
FG15-ISH7EG;n10284122 said:
So Ithlinne + Tremor generates 18 power against a normal deck, even if no Lesser Guardian is spawned.

And 18 is still less than the 20 she represents when using Alzur's instead. If there's not 10+ cards and an opportunity for a Lesser Guardian, it's NEVER worth using Ithlinne+Tremors. You will, without doubt, get more potential out of using Alzur as a removal. Less targets for Commander's Horn. Save yourself value taking out two of those NG machines.

FG15-ISH7EG;n10284122 said:
And a minimum power of 18 against normal decks is a lot above average for golds.

Iorveth:Medi, G:Igni, hell even VE (a bronze), called. ~20 power is average for viable silvers. Cranmer alone potentially gives ~30 value over a game.

Ithlinne only shines against Dwarves in the current meta, which makes up over half the playerbase. Then you start to question motives. Despite Ithlinne being used by those decks, it benefits a sizeable portion of the community to have her gutted again. Nerf Dwarves, and we'll see if the tune changes.

FG15-ISH7EG;n10284122 said:
If you don't get her in a short round 3 don't mulligan at all, and else mulligan her

Long Round 3's almost never happen at higher ranks. You win Round 1, you bleed your opponent down, Round 3 becomes who has the better finisher with CA.

She's mulligan material. Even having Scorch is more valuable to you come Round 3.
 
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Karfuss;n10284432 said:
Ithlinne only shines against Dwarves in the current meta, which makes up over half the playerbase. Then you start to question motives. Despite Ithlinne being used by those decks, it benefits a sizeable portion of the community to have her gutted again. Nerf Dwarves, and we'll see if the tune changes.

Um no, I don't even play Dwarves. She's good against most decks, you'd have to be blind to think she's only good against Dwarves. If your deck runs ANY 1 or 2 point units then you're screwed in a long round. She's still good in short rounds if there's 1 or 2 power units on the board. Don't say I'm being "greedy" for trying to win round 1, that's not what it is. Besides, this topic isn't even about Ithlinne, it's about Tremors. I don't understand why you don't see how this card is overpowered.
 
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OG.laloquaint;n10287712 said:
Um no, I don't even play Dwarves. She's good against most decks, you'd have to be blind to think she's only good against Dwarves. If your deck runs ANY 1 or 2 point units then you're screwed in a long round. She's still good in short rounds if there's 1 or 2 power units on the board. Don't say I'm being "greedy" for trying to win round 1, that's not what it is. Besides, this topic isn't even about Ithlinne, it's about Tremors. I don't understand why you don't see how this card is overpowered.

Doesn't matter what you play. The only META deck Tremors+Ithlinne is good against is Dwarves. If you're playing Resurrect/Discard SK or Bear SK, good for you, but it doesn't mean everyone else is. For good reason.

If you're throwing your entire hand out Round 1. It's called greeding. That's where Ithlinne+Tremors is great, and only if you have 10+ minions with 1-2 units. Ergo, 10+ units in 11 card including spells isn't something any deck in the meta can consistently pull. Except Dwarves.

If you're complaining about Tremors, and Tremors alone. You do realise that Lacerate is better in almost every way than a single Tremor? Tremors only works well with Ithlinne, and Ithlinne only exists to punish you -greeding- and going deep Round 1. Passing mid turn, or after a 14+ tempo lead (which usually causes your opponent to play a good card, or go down CA) makes Ithlinne useless.

100%, nerf Dwarves and Ithlinne complaints will be limited to SK players. They'll drop to almost nothing overnight. They may use it, but an Ithlinne is far more effective against them than their Ithlinne will be against, say, NG.
 
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Karfuss;n10288462 said:
If you're throwing your entire hand out Round 1. It's called greeding. That's where Ithlinne+Tremors is great, and only if you have 10+ minions with 1-2 units. Ergo, 10+ units in 11 card including spells isn't something any deck in the meta can consistently pull. Except Dwarves.

Sorry to interrupt but I don't agree with that. Depending on the situation you sometimes have to play your entire hand round one, it's not greeding it's just, being tactical and not drop the game for no reason.
Besides, if you lose the coinflip, for example, passing on round one to avoid Ithlinne + Tremors is pointless since your opponent can freely decide to go for a short round 2 and therefore a long round 3 which essentially exposes you to the exact same issue...Ithlinne + tremors.

This combo is almost impossible to avoid and devastating against pretty much every deck, it's 1OO% something CDPR has to fix.
 
GenLiu;n10288642 said:
Sorry to interrupt but I don't agree with that. Depending on the situation you sometimes have to play your entire hand round one, it's not greeding it's just, being tactical and not drop the game for no reason.
Besides, if you lose the coinflip, for example, passing on round one to avoid Ithlinne + Tremors is pointless since your opponent can freely decide to go for a short round 2 and therefore a long round 3 which essentially exposes you to the exact same issue...Ithlinne + tremors.

This combo is almost impossible to avoid and devastating against pretty much every deck, it's 1OO% something CDPR has to fix.

It's possible to play around it to some extent: if you don't have a 1-health or 2-health unit on the board for example, the opponent is less likely to use Ithlinne. They might also be thinking that they can get even more value out of Ithlinne if they wait a few more turns. With a well-timed pass you can greatly reduce the combo's potency. It's also possible to avoid the combo (or at least there are decks it's ineffective against) - if you play armor or consume for example, Ithlinne casting Tremors is something you care little about.

It's for these reasons that most decks using Ithlinne also use Alzur's Thunder. When Ithlinne casting Tremors isn't effective, Ithlinne casting Alzur's Thunder is likely to be. Even if the opponent is able to carefully avoid a long round or playing a lot of units, Ithlinne casting Alzur's Thunder is still going to be worth a bunch of points. The card is almost never dead, very consistent and devastatingly powerful.
 
Jeydra;n10288842 said:
Ithlinne casting Alzur's Thunder is still going to be worth a bunch of points. The card is almost never dead, very consistent and devastatingly powerful.

And that "bunch of points" is only 20, meanwhile you have bronze cards like VE that'll reliably pull 20. Silver cards like Cranmer and Cynthia. Iorveth: Medi, G:Igni, Schirru and Villentrentenmerth.

In any case, at maximum, 20~ points against every meta deck that isn't Dwarves is negligible. If anything it's devastating against NG's Mangonel, which is a fair point, but even then it's a 16 point removal swing. Where it shines there is you're saving yourself a heap of trouble in long rounds. For a Gold that isn't a finisher, 20~ is negligible. Aglais can pull similar values and more.

Ithlinne is a dead card going into Round 3, whereas Schirru, G: Igni, Iorveth: Medi IS TRULY always consistent and devastatingly powerful. Round 1, 2 and 3.
 
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Jeydra;n10288842 said:
It's possible to play around it to some extent: if you don't have a 1-health or 2-health unit on the board for example, the opponent is less likely to use Ithlinne. They might also be thinking that they can get even more value out of Ithlinne if they wait a few more turns. With a well-timed pass you can greatly reduce the combo's potency. It's also possible to avoid the combo (or at least there are decks it's ineffective against) - if you play armor or consume for example, Ithlinne casting Tremors is something you care little about.

It's for these reasons that most decks using Ithlinne also use Alzur's Thunder. When Ithlinne casting Tremors isn't effective, Ithlinne casting Alzur's Thunder is likely to be. Even if the opponent is able to carefully avoid a long round or playing a lot of units, Ithlinne casting Alzur's Thunder is still going to be worth a bunch of points. The card is almost never dead, very consistent and devastatingly powerful.

It's true on paper but it's so easy to use your control options so your opponent always at least have one unit at 1str (if not one at 1 an another at 2) that you have to be a real genius if you want to perfectly play around.

For that reason trying to find the right timing to pass can very much happen the other way around when you try to boost/heal your units so you don't have a good target for Ithlinne before passing and your opponent play a card that drop one of your unit to the critical threshold again.
 
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