Fixing the Create Leaders

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Fixing the Create Leaders

I think it's generally agreed that Whispering Hillock, Adda, Eist and Filavandrel are borderline worthless additions to the game. Usurper I'm uncertain about but I like the idea and he seems to be a card that offers worthwhile utility. So I'd like to discuss possible ways of making them better.

Eist: The fact he doesn't create a random card but has a pick of what he wants is quite nice, but limiting it to soldiers essentially limits it to a lot of cards we don't need more than 3 of. Back when he could create veterans Eist was at least worth considering, so what if he could either create ANY SK bronze, or any SK support? That would - at least theoretically - give him value as a consistency pick. He can guarantee greatswords have their central engine ready to go, or provide more pieces if the deck comes up against mass removal. Or maybe a Crach variant for the graveyard? Resurrect the weakest card in your graveyard and buff it by x amount? That would stop him being Sigrdrifa x 2, or with the new restrictions on her, even just let him resurrect anything in the graveyard. Perhaps even a super-duel ability, given his soldier flavour? Either a really big body on him, or a ton of armour a la Seltkirk? Or smallish/standard body but he deals double damage in duels?

Adda: In theory I like her as the cursed deck leader, like the Arachas Queen is the consume deck leader. It seems to me then that she ought to be able to create any cursed NR unit without restrictions. Why she's limited to just a pick of three, I don't know. I don't think there's anything broken in there. It'd probably mean everyone and their mother just runs double olgierd, but at least people would RUN HER then. I don't see anything more broken in that than the good old days of Crach an Craite into Morkvarg, and the NR leaders are all really powerful anyway (20+ points out of Henselt is normal, Radovid shuts down engines like a psychopath with a vendetta against machines and gives you a 14 point swing into the bargain, Foltest buffs your entire deck, so he normally gets 20ish points as well...).

Whispering Hillock: Criminy, I have no idea what they had in mind with this card. Some added synergy with the crones would make sense, given [removed because of spoiler]. What if she had the option of essentially being one of the three gold crones? All three are good but none are broken, and the Hillock being able to 'double up' on one's abilities would be something worth trying at least, and might make a relict deck quite a feasible option. It might even make deathwish viable, since she could double dip on the double deathwish resurrection, or she could Eithne for alchemy cards; thus making her reliable at least. Or maybe a reverse Cahir. Cahir resurrects your leader card. What if the Hillock resurrects the last gold crone you played? Or even shuffles the silver crones back in your deck, allowing monsters to 'reload' one of their oldest finishers? I'm not sure that would be broken in the current environment, where 20ish point plays are pretty normal and plenty of leaders get that amount of value from their ability. I feel crone/relict synergy is the way forward with the Hillock. There aren't enough relicts - or good relicts - for create-a-relict to be worthwhile in my opinion. If you want to get super flavourful, maybe when you play her she's auto-sacrificed if all three crones are in your graveyard and they're resurrected? I seem to recall in the game they explicitly say that they bound her to the tree because she was nastier and scarier even than them.

Filavandrel: Uhhhhhhhhhh... create-an-elf? Elves have a lot of good tech cards that people don't like to be up against like the Vrihedd Dragoons. Maybe being able to get more of them would make elven handbuff more viable? Or at least create a proper elf deck. He's supposedly an elven king, so this might work as an idea. He seems the most directionless of all the new leaders, and I can't see an obvious home or future for him.

Some thoughts I've had swirling for a while. Have at it.
 
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The new leaders are all based on flawed concepts. Henselt is a great example of an overpowered synergy leader (especially with wench.) Another example is reveal. The RNG in create almost guarantees a problem with synergy (Adda can create a botchling but not a lubberkin so essentially it comes to only 5 point bonus for a leader.) Whispering hillock is a leader with nothing to lead (there is no synergy built into his power.) ST and NG are roll of the dice (better to go with a sure thing then an RNG imo.) Finally we have SK which I have never used an only seen a few times. It seems weaker than every other leader in SK.

What we need are leaders who can effect multiple archetypes. For example NR return leader works with 3 different builds (return and reveal, super spy, and viper Witcher.) Also henslet can work with armor or siege decks. My third and final example is that dwarves can be run by any ST leader. We simply did not get any in the Mid winter update.
 
Okay... so your suggestion to fix them is...?

Did you mean NG and Emhyr?

There are plenty of leaders who are designed for one sort of deck, though, and I don't consider it a problem to adapt these ones to enable new deck types. I mean, you CAN run Eredin in a non-frost archetype, but you're really not supposed to and I don't think anyone does. Arachas Queen doesn't really see play outside consume. Nobody's putting Morvrhan Vorhees in their alchemy deck. If they add moonlight to Dagon (which would make sense) that will instantly make him the moonlight leader, regardless of any other decks he's used for.

But still, what sort of effects would you like to see? How can these leaders fit into multiple archetypes in a way that won't be superseded by leaders already in the game?
 
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Usurper is rather decent in NG tbh, probably the best create leader.

CRPR is aware that this type of leaders are terrible but their argument is that they are meant to be for the new game mode. Imo they should be available ONLY in the new mode then, hopefully when that launches these leaders will be removed from our collections, maybe they just let us toy with them for while and have a sense of how they play.

This would also make the new mode feel more unique, after all if it's random draft style then some leaders wouldn't really be playable because they rely on synergies (think Morvran, Arachas, etc) which you aren't guaranteed to get. I assume you choose your leader BEFORE creating your deck.

This probably wouldn't happen but this is my solution.
 
Filavandrel Suggestion.

So I think the Create schtick is fun, but to make Fil less terrible of a leader in game situations, the card he creates should be added to hand, not immediately played. Thoughts?
 
Barracuda88;n10314292 said:
[...] the card he creates should be added to hand, not immediately played. Thoughts?

You are forgetting one *small* detail. Implementing that will give you card advantage, meaning everyone and their goldfish will be using the leader. A small oversight, easily remedied by adding an additional part to his ability, in the same way how Restore works now:

"Create a Silver special card in your hand, then play a card".
 
4RM3D;n10314372 said:
You are forgetting one *small* detail. Implementing that will give you card advantage, meaning everyone and their goldfish will be using the leader. A small oversight, easily remedied by adding an additional part to his ability, in the same way how Restore works now:

"Create a Silver special card in your hand, then play a card".

Yeah, I guess straight card advantage would be too OP, even for a leader play. I DO like it with the "then play a card" addition, though. I think that would help a ton.

OR you could stay with the original idea but make him a 5-point spy or something.
 
First, you would need to add at least 13 point spy to stick with the original idea. Second, we just got rid of double silver spies (except for summoning circle) we are in no hurry to go back. Third, I think this power is too similar to the NG return power (not to mention it is similar to the gels power.) Finally, the last thing (and I am mean the very last thing) that ST needs is to get more powerful. They already have better golds then every other faction. They already have silver that can play for almost 20 points and distribute those points (reducing the effect of scorch and making them impossible to counter,) among multiple cards. Also there bronze cards are as tough if not tougher than any other faction.
 
Wonderboy8700;n10315052 said:
First, you would need to add at least 13 point spy to stick with the original idea. Second, we just got rid of double silver spies (except for summoning circle) we are in no hurry to go back. Third, I think this power is too similar to the NG return power (not to mention it is similar to the gels power.) Finally, the last thing (and I am mean the very last thing) that ST needs is to get more powerful. They already have better golds then every other faction. They already have silver that can play for almost 20 points and distribute those points (reducing the effect of scorch and making them impossible to counter,) among multiple cards. Also there bronze cards are as tough if not tougher than any other faction.

I think literally every sentence in this quote is VERY debatable :D

I'll just limit my answer to one point, though. Implying that a leader (Filavandrel) should continue to suck and not get fixed because ST is supposedly OP right now is straight up wrong.
 
Changes to Boring create Leaders

I think we can all agree that all of the Create Leaders are boring, linear cards that just shouldn't exist. They don't support an archetype, they're just points with a bit of a random aspect to them. They're fun to play - don't get me wrong, but they don't support any style of play or create interesting decks. It's just an independent card without synergies.
My Suggestions

Filavandrel
(3) Create a Silver special card
(6) Move up to 5 allied Elves to this row and boost them by 2
http://custom-gwent.com/cards/1adb61...1e9e4f04bef626


Adda
(6) Create a Bronze or Silver cursed unit
(9) Deal 1 damage to an enemy for each cursed ally on your board or in your graveyard
http://custom-gwent.com/cards/79932c...2c4f1a93f21e4a

What do you think of the create leaders? What do you think of my suggestions? What are your suggestions? I welcome any and all constructive criticism.
 
Agree that Create Leaders need to change.

Building on your Filavandrel idea, what about something like:
Move up to 5 units to this row on it's side. If allied Elves, boost them by 2.
6 Strength might be too strong with this ability, so made need to drop back down a bit.
 
The whole create mechanic is totally broken. With ST for example i got Eleyas, Aelirenn and Ciaran as choices when there was nothing to lock more than once. Eleyas and Aelirenn are cards that should't even exist as choices. It's quite dumb.
 
Hmm....Filavandrel as movement leader sounds interesting.

Any ideas for Whispering Hillock? Deathwish would need a leader: something like trigger the deathwish ability of 3 allies, but I'd be a bit concerned about this ability as long as nekker/nekker warriors exist in their current form. There has to be a better option....
 
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Create as a mechanic is just terrible and should be reverted as soon as possible. Whispering Hillock and Filavandrel already showcase now what will eventually happen to EVERY create card, namely they will become totally useless because the pool of cards to choose from is too large.

Whispering Hillock and Dorregaray are the perfect examples of this. Organic cards are mostly situational with some good ones but also a significant number of truly terrible options meaning the odds of you getting something worthless are already much too high for this leader ever to be useful in its current form. Dorregaray has it just as bad with things like Harpy and Roach already polluting its pool.
Filavandrel's options are equally unreliable and nowhere near enough to consider picking it over any of STs other excellent leaders and with the number of Elves getting released each expansion it's not going to get any better either.

Again though, these problems will eventually make every Create card in the game unplayable as more cards are released. Implementing a Hearthstone mechanic into Gwent is just a fundamentally flawed idea. HS thrives on its random card effects and uses it to add variation to the game whereas in Gwent this variation comes simply from deckbuilding and the order each player chooses to play their cards in. As such there is no need whatsoever for cards to have inherently random effects built into them at all, at least not to this extent.

Fortunately these Leaders can be fixed very easily. Monsters are in dire need of having some of its archtypes besides Consume enabled as Moonlight, Wild Hunt and Deathwish are all in dire need of assistence at present. I would suggest something like this:


Whispering Hillock: 4

Move a friendly and an enemy unit to this units row on its side. Deathwish: Spawn Full Moon on this row and Blood Moon on the opposing row.


Filavandrel is a bit harder for me as ST is not really my cup of tea and unlike Monsters, STs archtypes are all in pretty good shape right now and already have distinctive leaders for each one. A movement or Trap hazard related ability would probably be the most appropriate. Maybe something like:


Filavandrel: 6

Immediately trigger all effects of Hazards on the opposing side and Boons on your side.


Dorregaray, while not a leader, really needs to just be given a Spawn ability again, either for beasts or Draconids. The current iteration of the card is just pitiful compared to what it used to be. Off course, gradually the entire Create mechanic will need to be phased out of the game as other Create cards also become even more useless than they are now. Maybe it could survive on some bronzes with a very narrow selection, for instance choosing from cards in your or the opponents deck but really, it doesn't enhance the game in any way.
 
I've been thinking about the new leaders quite a bit as well, create really doesn't work for them. Personally I think Eist is fine if slightly boring - he might even be overpowered in the new meta. Usurper is my favourite new leader, maybe he could do without create though - maybe just play your opponents leader?

I also thought Filavanderel would make the most sense as a movement leader. I personally would change Zoltan (why has he got anything to do with movement?) and give it to Fila, maybe upping it to 4 or 5 units instead of 3. Or, maybe a whale harpooner style thing - move all enemy units on a row and damage them by the number of units moved. Anything but a less reliable Eithne.

My idea for Adda is pretty simple - spawn a copy of a cursed unit on your side. Its not to far from what it currently is and basically its an extension of the cursed knight thing, but it could be really useful for Revenants or bouncing back Iris'. Lets face it, it would only ever be used for double Olgierd, which is a bit of a problem, but hopefully not too bad.

Hillock is the hardest one, pretty much summed up by the fact monsters don't really have any archetypes. It does nothing right now, so its hard to know where to fit it. It could just be deathwish - trigger all allied deathwishes or something. It would make most sense in a relict archetype, but there isn't one. They could just give it the "strengthen all relicts" parts of the crone ability, but that would still never see play. Maybe thats a good thing.
 
Wouldn't bet on it. Whispess + Hillock giving all relicts +4? That'd make the crones trilogy beastly, make the gold crones actually pretty powerful, and make average relicts about 15 power. I think that'd see play just fine.
 
iamthedave;n10379762 said:
Wouldn't bet on it. Whispess + Hillock giving all relicts +4? That'd make the crones trilogy beastly, make the gold crones actually pretty powerful, and make average relicts about 15 power. I think that'd see play just fine.

Well the idea was more to remove that from Whispess. I don't really like choose one option card. I'd rather have an ability I want in my deck because I want it, not because it has multiple options and I just pick the best at the time.
 
SkippyHole;n10380902 said:
Well the idea was more to remove that from Whispess. I don't really like choose one option card. I'd rather have an ability I want in my deck because I want it, not because it has multiple options and I just pick the best at the time.

Hell no. Too weak for a leader, I think. I mean, that'd be significantly weaker than Foltest, and much more unreliable.
 
Oops I meant Weavess not Whispess. The strengthen all Relicts by 2 one, then leave Weavess with the pull and strengthen a single Relict. Its not quite a worse Foltest, it just means it can only really be used in a Relict specific deck, unlike Foltest - it does 2 instead of one and its strengthen instead of boost, which is better. The trouble is there's just no use for it - Relicts do nothing, and without an archetype around them, any leader card is just going to be a bit wasted.
 
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