I wouldn't know, I barely watch those things unless bored or prompted. If a deck becomes popular I'll wind up playing against it anywayiamthedave;n10679261 said:
Just tried it.4RM3D;n10679331 said:
I won't cry nerf after a few games, but ... yeah, far stronger.
Thanks for the tip Bondonkadonk, I'll give it a shot when I return to the deck.
ST Handbuff via Ocvist is strong, but it's also high risk. A stray thunderbolt, or worse compression can easily brick it (Dorregaray is a poor backup, Phoenix can't save against compression). if they play it you can short round them for +3-4 CA, and possibly a round win if you have enough points on deck to beat its' ability firing plus Ethine's body. then you play trash for most of round two to bleed out their high power and you've still got a fair shot at taking R3 if you've a decent finisher.
Both decks are abusive and need a nerf, no deck should put out this much power no matter how much "setup" it takes. I've watched Swim play this a few hours and it is much easier to shut down than the NG version. That said if you don't shut it down you lost and you lost by a lot. Shut Ocvist down and it's over, this does not compare to NG where ANY card (NG Knight) can substitute Ocvist.
These decks put out too much power and are zero fun to play against. Nerf is needed.
These decks put out too much power and are zero fun to play against. Nerf is needed.
4RM3D;n10679331 said:
How is it "nastier" than NG handbuff when everything depends on one card which takes 4 turns to return to your hand? You have 3 NG Knights, one of which you return to your hand right after you mandrake it without the opposition having a chance to touch it. This is much more consistent and thus much nastier.
Hellsmoke77;n10680841 said:
You have more consistent thinning with higher power potential and Phoenix can save you from most things except Compression. The NG handbuff's only advantage is a better backup plan. I would say Green Consume is stronger than NG Handbuff, but opinions may vary.
I see you never took the advice of trying it to see how it works... there's only 1 Knight in that deck normally... there isn't enough room for more. your backup plan is G.Hunt, or maybe a big Silver depending on how you built. this is also why it self bricks so easily... there are 3 cards required to make it work, and you must have all of them R1, anything after that and your chance of a win drops like a rock. the same applies to the Ocvist version, but it can get by better on just 2 of it's key cards and can also use Milva in an emergency on any creature.Hellsmoke77;n10680841 said:
I don't know how you guys can defend either of these decks. I understand that people who eat, sleep and sh*t gwent enjoy more complex decks with a higher skill ceiling but these decks destroy the balance of the game. Either give every faction an archetype with this potential output or remove these two, it's that simple. The solution is never to just leave it as is and screw everyone else.
Nobody I argued with in this thread came across as "dumb" but all of you refuse to acknowledge the fact that either every faction gets it or none, it's called balance.
Void_Singer
I'm not going to try the deck, I don't like the faction. Why don't we just all play NG, I'm sure that would make gwent a great game to play right? I've seen plenty of people run more than one Knight, that argument is worthless. There are several variations of this deck, not just one. People complain about seeing the same decks all the time, this does nothing to change that situation. You either run a op deck or you tech the necessary cards to stand a chance against said deck. There is little room to be creative if you plan on winning anything.
Decks like this are unhealthy for the game, it's not balanced.
Nobody I argued with in this thread came across as "dumb" but all of you refuse to acknowledge the fact that either every faction gets it or none, it's called balance.
Void_Singer
I'm not going to try the deck, I don't like the faction. Why don't we just all play NG, I'm sure that would make gwent a great game to play right? I've seen plenty of people run more than one Knight, that argument is worthless. There are several variations of this deck, not just one. People complain about seeing the same decks all the time, this does nothing to change that situation. You either run a op deck or you tech the necessary cards to stand a chance against said deck. There is little room to be creative if you plan on winning anything.
Decks like this are unhealthy for the game, it's not balanced.
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Every faction CAN use this type of handbuff. Ocvist, Phoenix, and Mandrake (and Mardroeme) are all neutral cards... I keep waiting for someone to build the SK version because it'll probably be even stronger. And it's beyond ridiculous to claim that every faction should get exactly the same or none at all... the point of factions is to behave differently. if you want that kind of 'balance' you may want to stick to Arena.
It's equally silly to complain about things you dislike and think are OP, but then don't bother to make even the barest effort to understand how they work... it makes it very hard for us to take your opinion seriously, moreso when you suggest learning how something works is equivalent to 'everyone should play NG'. Those of us that have made the effort, discovered it's flaws immediately, and no longer fear it... I'd rather face off against either version than most of the top decks.
You complain about it being unbalanced yet the only T1 decks it really does well against are are weather, deathwish, and blue stripes... everything else, even Machines it's 50/50 at best, and usually below. The only reason it's doing well this season is thanks to a lot of players leaning heavily into Imerlith which it can stomp flat.
PS
I'm going to have to doubt your "plenty of people", considering your penchant for exageration and the fact that I have not seen NG Hanbuff a single time on the ladder in this season or last, other than the times *I* played it for change of pace. I saw it 3 times back in early january before the ointment nerf though. I will say that anyone playing a version with more than 1 Knight is playing a weaker points version than even the original. the bronze package is just too tight. it'd require very strong sacrifices and there's no real benefit since the starting unit is the least likely brick point with even just one silver as backup.
It's equally silly to complain about things you dislike and think are OP, but then don't bother to make even the barest effort to understand how they work... it makes it very hard for us to take your opinion seriously, moreso when you suggest learning how something works is equivalent to 'everyone should play NG'. Those of us that have made the effort, discovered it's flaws immediately, and no longer fear it... I'd rather face off against either version than most of the top decks.
You complain about it being unbalanced yet the only T1 decks it really does well against are are weather, deathwish, and blue stripes... everything else, even Machines it's 50/50 at best, and usually below. The only reason it's doing well this season is thanks to a lot of players leaning heavily into Imerlith which it can stomp flat.
PS
I'm going to have to doubt your "plenty of people", considering your penchant for exageration and the fact that I have not seen NG Hanbuff a single time on the ladder in this season or last, other than the times *I* played it for change of pace. I saw it 3 times back in early january before the ointment nerf though. I will say that anyone playing a version with more than 1 Knight is playing a weaker points version than even the original. the bronze package is just too tight. it'd require very strong sacrifices and there's no real benefit since the starting unit is the least likely brick point with even just one silver as backup.
Void_Singer;n10681701 said:
It's on about 1.7% popularity at higher tiers according to the meta report. So a lot of us aren't going to run into it. I've not encountered it once this season either.
You might be right that the Imlerith decks are artificially increasing its win percentage; royal decree Immy can't take out a Nilf knight, and those decks often don't pack other proper removal. Either way its got a decent win per centage despite its low play rate.
Hellsmoke77;n10681141 said:
Pointless though it is I'll attempt to correct you one more time.
These decks do not destroy the balance of the game. These decks have had NO effect on the balance of the game. Provide some evidence, ANY evidence, that the format has been warped by handbuff. That is the sign of balance being affected. Imlerith: Sabbath has indeed warped the format, because mandrake has become a mandatory card inclusion to deal with him. That doesn't make I:S unbalanced though, as you yourself have argued.
This entire thread has been you going with feels before reals while we show you how your feelings are objectively incorrect and you stick your fingers in your ears and shout nananananananotlistening.
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It's beyond ridiculous to claim every faction can play it. NG has Emhyr to take back the buffed unit to the hand and Spotters. ST has Milva to get the buffed unit back in the deck and Mahakam horn. So they have both unique abilities.
The only reason why it is better this season is Triss: Telekinesis. She was not there before.
Hellsmoke is completely right and of course it's popularity has nothing to do with balance...
The only reason why it is better this season is Triss: Telekinesis. She was not there before.
Hellsmoke is completely right and of course it's popularity has nothing to do with balance...
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soph912;n10682011 said:
Weeeeell, technically all factions CAN play it. The non-NG versions use Ocvist, who's neutral. Wyvern's shield is also a neutral card, and most factions have some unit that can tutor it. The problem is that not all factions have decent strengthen cards, and mandrake plus a bit of mardroeme is too slow. I'm not sure how NR could do it, for example, and Skellige would probably struggle too, though maybe a version using a hyped up greatsword might be possible as a late late game option.
But I don't see the existing greatsword deck stretching to include shield and swordbearer, so if the tech's worthwhile nobody's using it.
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Void_Singer;n10681701 said:
It's quite hard to take you seriously as well since you and everyone defending the deck love to play it. I play ST yet I have no problem admitting that Swims current version is op as well.
Not every faction has a leader that makes such a deck possible. Emhyr works because he can scoop up any card at will which makes NG the most oppressive by far when it comes to handbuff. Eithne comes in at second because of double horn or mandrake but is restricted by Ocvist being vulnerable, just like every other faction. Good luck making it work in any other faction or wait for Swim to make it work for you like he made your beloved NG version. If it works so great in all factions I would like to see some ideas from you on gwent db but we know that wont happen as your only goal here is to defend your cheap deck that someone else created for you.
I don't "fear" your crappy deck, I don't wish to play against it. It's for low iq people who lack creativity and would do anything to win and get a rise out of people. It puts out too much bronze value and it's not worth teching agains just because a small percentage of people want to cheese their way up the ranks. As mentioned above, popularity has nothing to do with balance. If it were just you and Dave playing the deck it would still be unbalanced and needing a nerf.
As for doubting my "plenty of people" argument, watch some Twitch and Youtube videos, unlike you who just started playing after the midwinter patch I've been at it for quite some time.
You must be a magnet for this deck, because i think i encounter it every 50-100 matches at best (and beating).
The whole low iq argument is a bit needless, but you probably know that yourself.
The whole low iq argument is a bit needless, but you probably know that yourself.
Don't understand how some people complain about a deck that you run into 1 in every 100 matches. Both handbuff decks - the ocvist and NG knight / G. Hunt are super fun to play but not really competitive. If you pass round 1 against these decks thinking "YAY I got 3 Card advantage, no way I lose", and allow them to complete their combo unchecked, obviously you will lose even with 3-4 CA. That's how these decks works, don't mean they are OP. It's just like consume - you can happily have your 2 CA but if you let them have control of the game (by losing round 1), you might as well concede and save some time.
In which reality did "{I} and everyone defending it" claim to "love to play it". Or for that matter, that I am 'defending it' at all?... because it's not this one. It doesn't need one. But to expect no one to ridicule hyperbolic misconceptions presented as fact? now THAT would be a stretch.Hellsmoke77;n10683021 said:
It's certainly easier to build with NG, because NG's whole shtick is using the game environment to attack the opponent. that doesn't mean it's the only means. As for posting decks I only post my fun decks, and I do it here, not offsite, because I have no interest in encouraging netdecking. and for the record I built my version after playing against someone else using it, because I liked how different the concept was and had most of the core available.
No? so then you didn't say...
nor...
... Thou doth protest too much, methinks
the endless clickbait highlight reel that is twitch and youtube is your 'research' material? Has it occurred to you that people don't tend to share their boring matches because no one else is going to share them either? or that just because someone recorded something doesn't make their opinion worth any more? Please let this be an object lesson in Selection Bias, AKA Cherry-Picking. I'm actually beginning to wonder if you yourself have ever actually played against one of these. They are easier to beat than all the top ladder decks, and not with teching, just smart play and basics that should be in most well rounded decks. do they have big creatures? you betcha, and their potential to get them out is 9/match unchecked... that's less than unchecked Nekkers can do in a single R3.
PS
A quick search of youtube only shows a handful or so of videos discussing Hnadbuff (mostly ST Ocvist after excluding ST Hand Boost), and of those all the few about the NG version are old and about swim's original version from last year, which has some obvious improvements that can be made. Twitch.... yeah I'm not even trying to search that uncategorized mess to figure out which flavor of the month streamer you're idolizing.
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Void_Singer;n10684561 said:
Shuuuuuut uuuuup, Void. You're talking SENSE. That's not allowed in this thread.
Hellsmoke has a voice in his head that tells him only a deck's ardent fans will support its existence, see his hilariously incorrect statement that I 'love' a deck I've played maybe 20 times total, that he repeats still despite my directly contradicting it. Note that he also considers playing a deck to learn how to play it to be equal to 'loving' that deck, and indeed seems to oppose knowledge itself.
If I didn't know better I'd think this entire thread was satire.
And Handbuff isn't much of anything for 'crazy plays on youtube'. I've seen Swim regularly finish round 3s with 100+ points on the board through a variety of intensely stupid and funny methods that should under no circumstances actually work. And as you point out yourself, Nekker consume rolls around on the floor laughing at NG handbuff's pathetic 23 point bronzes. I played a NR armour deck just tonight that finished with multiple 25+ point bronzes on the board by retriggering the armour boost guy whose name I can never remember. OMFGOPPLZNERF
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Void_Singer
You obviously have no clue what Twitch is or that most of the highest ranking players either stream many hours daily or dwell in the chat. A few months of watching can gain you a lot of insight on various decks and what makes them work.
If you were remotely informed on what is going on in the gwent community you'd know that there is a new version of your cheap deck flying around with which a player achieved the number 2 rank world wide. So much for it "not being viable" huh Dave?
But everything that needs to be said has been said, we'll see how it plays out. I'm pretty convinced this will be nerfed into the ground so enjoy it while it lasts. Even Swim said CDPR has a very good track record of nerfing these decks but you guys act a lot smarter than he does lol so I assume you must have more insight on it than he does.
You obviously have no clue what Twitch is or that most of the highest ranking players either stream many hours daily or dwell in the chat. A few months of watching can gain you a lot of insight on various decks and what makes them work.
If you were remotely informed on what is going on in the gwent community you'd know that there is a new version of your cheap deck flying around with which a player achieved the number 2 rank world wide. So much for it "not being viable" huh Dave?
But everything that needs to be said has been said, we'll see how it plays out. I'm pretty convinced this will be nerfed into the ground so enjoy it while it lasts. Even Swim said CDPR has a very good track record of nerfing these decks but you guys act a lot smarter than he does lol so I assume you must have more insight on it than he does.
This thread is going downhill again despite the reminder already posted here.
There is absolutely no need for personal attacks (including accusations of lying and references to others' intelligence), so please keep those out of your posts. If you cannot write posts without that kind of content, then it's better to not post at all.
There is absolutely no need for personal attacks (including accusations of lying and references to others' intelligence), so please keep those out of your posts. If you cannot write posts without that kind of content, then it's better to not post at all.