TrompeLaMort's balance patch (NR, ST, and NG)

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TrompeLaMort's balance patch (NR, ST, and NG)

So we got a nice discussion on my first thread about balance changes, and I even changed my mind regarding Yoana (no buff needed) and Eist (+1 is probably alright). (But on the other points I still remain with my original opinion.) So let's continue and talk about NR, ST, and NG!

Again, as the game is in a good state right now, balance-wise, there are fewer changes than most people would expect.

Northern Realms

Philippa Eilhart:
+2 power.
Philippa is one of those cards that just got left behind when the power level of the game increased. With +2 power, she is a 18 point play, which is basically a Keira Metz, but only in best case scenario. It is common for her to be "bricked" by low strength units, and 5 point of damage rarely counts as removal, so I think she will still be a weak to acceptable choice even with this buff.

Kiyan: +2 power.
I understand that Kiyan is probably not meant to be very competitive, but let's not humiliate him by leaving him almost strictly worse than Burza. (Nothing against Burza, of course!)

Vandergrift's Blade: Deal 10 damage (instead of 9).
At least make the silver card kill something that a Bronze couldn't already kill.

Reaver Hunter: +1 power.
Right now, you need to play three Reaver to get a 12 point bronze. (First one buffs each for 1, second buffs each for 2, third buffs each for 3.) That is way too much effort to get a Bearmaster. Giving them +1 power, at least you get some reward for your effort. (Of course, playing 4 RHs will be, and already is, quite strong, but you need to consider the 5 point play from Operator, the silver slot, it is easily disruptable, you need to play around scorch, etc.)

Ban Ard Tutor: +1 power.
The effect is so conditional, that I feel he deserves a more competitive power level. And it would help Foltest swarm decks.

Scoia'tael

Brouver Hoog: +1 power. Play a silver unit or bronze dwarf from your deck.
The fact that Brouver, who should be a dorf leader, is being played even in elves, should be highly concerning balance-wise. Removing the pocket spy is a must, but I personally believe that he shouldn't be able to play non-dwarves at all. (It also makes him more flavorful, I guess.)

Zoltan Chivay: +1 power.
There was a time when a 14 point gold was quite fearsome, but now there is not much left of that world. Moving units is obviously strong, but giving Zoltan a vanilla Geralt power-level can never risk making him too strong.

Elf Scout: 1 strength, disloyal. Create an elf unit not from your deck, and boost it by 2.
So, the time has arrived to take out the big guns. Elf scout must go. How can we make a 1 strength unit weaker? I could make it damage the unit created, but self-damaging is not really a ST thing, and it would be awkward with 1 strength units. So better make it disloyal and boost. Then we might as well boost it by 2, since it won't put 2 units on board anymore. (Could also be more flavorful, since the scout "works behind the enemy lines".)

Mahakam Defender: +2 armor.
The problem of Mahakam Defender is that it is simply too fragile. 6 power for a resilience unit is good, but while Barbegazi can consume units for a bit more protection, Defender can't do so. Giving him 2 armor will never risk making him too strong, since he still dies to bolt, but at least can't be countered anymore by bronze units like panther, which was a complete blow-out.

Dol Blathana Bomber: +1 power.
Bomber is a cool card, but right now you need a high level of row-stacking for her to be even viable. Besides, it is disruptable with things like Vilgefortz, etc.

Vrihedd Vanguard: +2 power.
This is mostly to compensate the nerfs to elf scout and half-elves, so it doesn't totally kill the elf swarm archetype. (Although usually you don't want to be actually playing your vanguards much.)

Half-elves: 5 strength. Spawn a doomed default copy of this unit and strengthen it by 1.
This is a sad change, because it completely removes the symmetry of the half-elves. But what can we do? 12 point is way too strong for a vanilla card on two bodies and with tribal synergy. And 10 point would make them quite useless. (Although I'm not sure I would mind that as much as the other way around.) I tried to make it so at least with Iorveth they remain symmetric, but CDPR could do it the other way around.

Hawker Support: +1 power.
The idea is to make hand-buff more viable. It would make it a 11 point bronze, which is the norm.

Nilfgaard

Slave Driver: Spawn the highest strength bronze unit in your opponents starting deck.
So the most hated card in the game. How can we utterly destroy it? (JK.) I feel that with this change, SD can be played around, removes the RNG, but keeps him as a good (and interesting!) pick for arena. No more will the opponent get a Greatswords (+1 point) and then a Longship (+1 point) and be able to outvalue your own engine deck.

Impera Enforcers: Pre bug-fix.
Spies has always been an advanced and cool deck, and the way enforcers worked with emissaries made it a really fun and skill-intensive deck to play. And also important, made it different from just being exactly the same as any other engine in the game.

Alba Spearman: +1 power.
Drawing cards is such a rare effect, that they can be vanilla priced without it.

Nilfgaardian Knight: -2 armor.
With these balance changes, the Knight is already the highest power bronze unit in the game. (Which is alright, since revealing your own hand is supposedly a drawback.) But the armor is just a bit too much.

So these are the changes I propose. What do you think of them? What else would you like to see balanced? With these balance changes, I feel the game will continue to be balanced, but with a higher focus on engine and interesting decks, instead of just point-slamming cards that are overpowered just now.
 
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I agree with everything except Vrihedd Vanguard, Half-Elf-Hunters and Slave Drivers.

Buffing Vrihedd Vanguard won't make it more attractive to play it and will make the Vrihedd Officer even stronger. He is already 12+buffing all elves. To make the Vanguard more attractive it should instead have a deploy ability, which boosts itself and which isn't triggered when swapping.
Having the Halfelf-Hunter unsymmetric feels horrible. They are Hunters, so it would be ok as well if they just dealt 1 random damage.

I'm not really convinced about your Slave Driver suggestion. The highest bronzes are usually those with the least synergie, which would make Slave Drivers still a pretty unconditional card. And against some decks it would just be unplayable.
I believe just locking the created unit before it can deploy is a better fix.
 
FG15-ISH7EG;n10632161 said:
I agree with everything except Vrihedd Vanguard, Half-Elf-Hunters and Slave Drivers.

Buffing Vrihedd Vanguard won't make it more attractive to play it and will make the Vrihedd Officer even stronger. He is already 12+buffing all elves. To make the Vanguard more attractive it should instead have a deploy ability, which boosts itself and which isn't triggered when swapping.

Thanks for the feedback!
Maybe there are other ways to balance elves, I tried to go for those that change things the least, just adjusting power-level. That said, the Officer+Vanguard mulligan is basically the only considerable payoff of playing mulligan elves, so I am okay with it being a strong move.

Having the Halfelf-Hunter unsymmetric feels horrible. They are Hunters, so it would be ok as well if they just dealt 1 random damage.

About Half-elf, I agree that making them asymmetric is horrible. But this game just can't have 12-power 2-body vanilla cards. They are way too strong and consistent. And there is a reason why no card game makes vanilla cards competitively viable (or at least tier 1): they are boring cards. And making them so strong like now makes the entire game boring point-slamming. So, since changing the power-level of the entire game just so they can be symmetric is likely not an option, if we are not going for asymmetric elves, we need to either make them unplayable (5-5), or completely rework them.

Are you suggesting making them 5-5 deal 1 random damage? I guess they can consider that option, although this random 1 point damage added to the card seems very forced there.

I'm not really convinced about your Slave Driver suggestion. The highest bronzes are usually those with the least synergie, which would make Slave Drivers still a pretty unconditional card. And against some decks it would just be unplayable.
I believe just locking the created unit before it can deploy is a better fix.

Well, if Slave drivers continue meta after this change (which I doubt it), the opponent can play around it in deck building. But I'm not even sure whether strong bronzes (in constructed!) are the ones with the least synergy (greatswords, berseker marauders, infiltrator, griffin, etc.), and all the broken interactions with slave driver (heymaey protector, elven mercenary, vicovaro medic) tend to be with low power units. And also importantly: my change keeps slave driver a decent/good arena pick, as it was intended.

Overall, locking the unit before deploy is IMO basically the same as scrapping the card from the game. It would be completely unplayable basically anywhere, be it constructed or even arena.
 
Nilfgardian knight is already very scorchable, not need for nerf.

slave driver should create cards from oponent faction and damage them by 1.
 
So the most hated card in the game. How can we utterly destroy it? (JK.) I feel that with this change, SD can be played around, removes the RNG, but keeps him as a good (and interesting!) pick for arena. No more will the opponent get a Greatswords (+1 point) and then a Longship (+1 point) and be able to outvalue your own engine deck.

For me, this card, and Elven Scout (though this card is more of a priority) should be completely removed from all modes except Arena. It is a killer against so many decks it is not even funny. Even with the change you propose it wrecks reveal by spawning alchemists and revealing the fire scorpions and daerlan soldiers one has in hand. As if it's not enough having Alchemy being able to reliably remove all Mangonels one places on the board. But since that is (sadly) never happening, I actually quite like your change. Because that rework means even reveal players will know how it works. As such, they can include a Master of Disguise or an NG knight in their deck and avoid that trap :) It is actually the only rework that leaves the card almost untouched, still as useful as it is in Alchemy decks AND makes it far less annoying. +1

I read somewhere the suggestion that SD should create a locked unit and there would be some Lock synergy with Slave hunters and infantry, one boosting self by the amount of locked units on the board, another triggering the deploy ability of a locked unit which I quite liked but I can't remember where :)

I'd also make Master of Disguise STR 10 and I wouldn't change the Alba Pikeman, since any unit with an ability needs to be below the nominal Strength imo.

Also I'd like to add a few things:

Tibor: STR 10
Boost self by 20, then your opponent draws a Bronze card and Reveals it. Immune

This is a must for me. When he was regressing, he was immune to mandrake and resetting effects and no one played him anyway. Now he got nerfed even more. Even without the power change, immunity to Tibor is a must.

Henselt: STR 3
Choose a bronze Machine or Kaedwen ally. Play up to 3 copies of it from your deck

I find this the happy medium, since there is no way to just add them back with Nenneke and bring a swarm of machines in the end, but players using Winch are still rewarded if they manage to get a Machine they have copies of in their decks. Nenneke will still be useful against removal, and Reaver Scout (an already great card), can also find some use in Machine decks. This is already skirting it, since there is a reason the bronze limit is 3. Being able to create more and use more is already against the game's spirit if you ask me, but whatever, there are a lot of things to change before this one. I'd hold on any further Henselt change than the one proposed anyway.


Impera Enforcers: Pre bug-fix.
Spies has always been an advanced and cool deck, and the way enforcers worked with emissaries made it a really fun and skill-intensive deck to play. And also important, made it different from just being exactly the same as any other engine in the game.

If you mean taking them back to retroactive targeting, I am all for that but everyone was whining about that. They need to be retroactive, everything but Spies has been ridiculously powercrept, retroactive targeting for enforcers was the only thing that kept spies competitive. I think all factions should have more ways to interact with spies on their side though, like encouraging the importance of locks, being able to swap them with the old field medic and stuff like that.

Dol Blathana Bomber: +1 power.
Bomber is a cool card, but right now you need a high level of row-stacking for her to be even viable. Besides, it is disruptable with things like Vilgefortz, etc.

I'd make that into:

Dol Blathanna Bomber: STR 7
Ambush: Whenever a unit appears to the opposite row, flip over and deal 2 damage to the row.

I feel this would make a really cool ambush unit without losing the current synergy with Movement Scoia'Tael. It would be like an ambush rotfiend, except without a deathwish, but triggering when a unit appears to the opposite row (moving units to that row would count as well. That would compensate the tempo loss by playing the Ambush in the first place. The turn you play the Ambush, you gain nothing in terms of points. but the next turn, Dwarven Agitator into Dwarven Mercenary and moving a unit to the opposite row could potentially unleash hell and earn you a proper amount of points to compensate for the 1 turn setup :p )

- Tuirseach Bearmaster: 1 Power
Spawn Bloodcurdling Roar

Like you said, 12 point bronzes without setup and added synergy are a bit too much. This is surely more prevalent in the half-elf hunter's case but I feel the Bearmaster shouldn't escape the same fate. That way, you have to sacrifice an ally, preferably a STR 1 ally. So aside from veteran decks, the best unit to sacrifice is the Bearmaster himself. plus, you can revive him afterwards :)


Wardancer: STR 4, Disloyal
Whenever you play a special card, damage all the other units on the row by 2

The card is pretty problematic as it is, due to the artificial carryover it provides. Brouver's Coinflip abuse is in no small part due to this card. So I feel that warrants a rework. The effect is what the Old Vrihedd Sappers had and it seems interesting enough to bring back along with some tweaking of the strength probably, since it is disloyal. Alternatively, it could get some ambush synergy, since the Old Wardancer's effect was:

Whenever you play an Ambush, boost self by 3


Balance-wise, there's not many other things I'd change. But I'd still make a lot of changes to make some cards more interesting, like the Shieldmaiden (old effect, as well as the Closed Beta effect were amazing! For the record, the closed beta effect was Retaliation: Play a copy of this unit from your deck)
 
ser2440;n10632701 said:
I read somewhere the suggestion that SD should create a locked unit and there would be some Lock synergy with Slave hunters and infantry, one boosting self by the amount of locked units on the board, another triggering the deploy ability of a locked unit which I quite liked but I can't remember where
FG15-ISH7EG;n10513732 said:
Slave Hunter: 3 points Create a locked copy of card from your enemies starting deck.
Slave Driver: 8 points Whenever a locked bronze card appears next to this unit, trigger its deploy ability.

ser2440;n10632701 said:
- Tuirseach Bearmaster: 1 Power Spawn Bloodcurdling Roar
The autor has created a different topic dealing with ST, SK and NE cards. There the beastmaster is already dealt with.

TrompeLaMort;n10632411 said:
Are you suggesting making them 5-5 deal 1 random damage? I guess they can consider that option, although this random 1 point damage added to the card seems very forced there.
Yes, that was what I was trying to suggest. It would be random, but as random as buffing one of them to 6 power.
 
ser2440;n10632701 said:
Tibor: STR 10 Boost self by 20, then your opponent draws a Bronze card and Reveals it. Immune This is a must for me. When he was regressing, he was immune to mandrake and resetting effects and no one played him anyway. Now he got nerfed even more. Even without the power change, immunity to Tibor is a must.

Henselt: STR 3 Choose a bronze Machine or Kaedwen ally. Play up to 3 copies of it from your deck

I personally don't like high power "vanilla" finishers like Tibor, so you won't be seeing me asking for buffs for any of them. For me he should be combo'ed with Imperial Golem (to make him a 19 point play) or played in mill (for a 25 point finisher). I guess he could use a couple of points, maybe they could buff him by 1, or perhaps even 2, but what you proposed seems too much for me.

About Henselt, I think he is truly fine right now. Most high-level players don't even play for the 3rd round Henselt anymore, since it is easily disruptable. He is more often played round 1. And as I said multiple times, a game should always try to give players opportunities to do something awesome. (Especially when it is skill-intensive.) And for me, limiting it to 3 copies is exactly the opposite: it is trying to limit the card for the situations where it is boring. My personal design philosophy is that a game should never do that.

"If removing all that is cool and exciting is what it takes to have a balanced game, it is better to leave the game unbalanced."

The other suggestions are nice, but I wanted to try to keep cards as close as possible to what they were intended to, with reworks only when strictly necessary. Maybe they should do something about Wardancer, but I think that card will be okay once they: a) fix coin-flip, b) largely increase the amount of carry-over in the game.
 
I like most of the changes, especially the one about Scouts: it's flavourful and fun, addressing most serious issues while not making the card completely unusable.
I have some reservations about these:

TrompeLaMort;n10631861 said:
Vrihedd Vanguard: +2 power.
Officer + Vanguard combo seems strong enough as it is and I'm currently playing them in my own own spin of Swap swarm. On the other hand I agree with suggestion to make it a more viable move to play them from hand:
FG15-ISH7EG;n10632161 said:
To make the Vanguard more attractive it should instead have a deploy ability, which boosts itself and which isn't triggered when swapping.

TrompeLaMort;n10631861 said:
Half-elves: 5 strength. Spawn a doomed default copy of this unit and strengthen it by 1.
Yes assymetric half-elves seem weird, and I think with two-elves-on-board Scout gone, leaving them at 2*5=10 points would still make them viable in swarm, while not so much anywhere else, which is fine. Some possible tweak could be letting player choose placement of the copy (so they're good setup for Ale in alcoholist Spell deck) and/or maybe replace Spawn with Summon so you would at least get some thinning (though it feels weird to have a bronze that makes no sense to play in triplet).

TrompeLaMort;n10631861 said:
Slave Driver: Spawn the highest strength bronze unit in your opponents starting deck.
It still feels broken design to me, only not that OP anymore. The idea of having to twist my deck because of a bronze seems horrid to me, not to mention that not every deck can do that. So it would be very strong against some decks (consistent 12 power in two bodies + removal effect with deathwish Cyclops), while poor against others. This suggestion seems more viable to me:
Pruny;n10632521 said:
slave driver should create cards from oponent faction and damage them by 1.

TrompeLaMort;n10631861 said:
Impera Enforcers: Pre bug-fix.
I think they were too strong for a bronze that way, while I also see that now they're too weak. I think right way would be somewhere in the middle. +1 power is is the bare minimum to match similar engines but a stronger buff (that's also not restricted to power change) would be alright, just not that strong.
EDIT: how about deal 1 damage for each spy on deploy instead of flat 1*2?
 
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time_drainer;n10635691 said:
I think they were too strong for a bronze that way, while I also see that now they're too weak. I think right way would be somewhere in the middle. +1 power is is the bare minimum to match similar engines but a stronger buff (that's also not restricted to power change) would be alright, just not that strong.
EDIT: how about deal 1 damage for each spy on deploy instead of flat 1*2?

Oh, I meant to reply this when brought up before, but I forgot. To go back before bug fix I meanwhen cast it does 2 damage + 2 for each spy that was played that turn. (Which only differs from now if you got the enforcers from a spy, of course.)
 
Good to see another list with suggestions.

I really would like to see the slavedriver changed because it's to rewarding as it is now.
You benefit of the abilities of your opponent's bronzes AND your own deck, often alchemy, that ain't right.
So in order to 'balance' the slavedriver it should spawn a locked unit, give the slave driver a bit more strength to compensate but play a unit not stronger than 10.
Locked units seem so fitting for this card :p

I also have the idea to make a new gold card that will unlock all units on the battlefield, boost locked allies and damage locked enemies.
This will make dimeritium schackles perhaps a more viable choice with alchemy.
For more details about this check out my thread:

https://forums.cdprojektred.com/for...a/suggestions-aa/10566662-balance-suggestions
 
TrompeLaMort;n10631861 said:
It would make it a 11 point bronze, which is the norm.


Good thread but reading this as an NR player makes me chuckle^^ 11 power bronze what a blessing that would be xD
 
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