Greatswords own weather too hard

[Jeydra]

Greatswords own weather too hard

It's one thing to be immune to weather (Dwarven Marauders). It's another to take the weather and turn it into an engine. Greatswords are especially strong vs. gold weather & White Frost.

I don't have any suggestions for how to improve this though without adding a sui generis exception for Greatswords.

 

[Pruny]

You can destroy them with muzle and compresion.

 

[FG15-ISH7EG]

It is the same case with Redanian Knights, who boost every turn by 2 if they are hit by 2 points. And if the weather is rain, Marauders also gain +1 every turn.

But I don't really see a problem with it. It hardly affects Frost, because there should be always smaller units on the row, if you don't use Frost without enemies on the board. Furthermore there is Drowner to move units in/out of weather and Bridge Troll to move the weather itself.
Furthermore the units become perfect scorch targets this way.

 

[Tschjo]

Just kill them before they grow or move them with drowners

 

[Jeydra]

It is the same case with Redanian Knights, who boost every turn by 2 if they are hit by 2 points. And if the weather is rain, Marauders also gain +1 every turn.

True. Redanian Knights are pretty uncommon though, since if they don't run into weather they're mediocre; however in principle I agree with you. Hate cards should not be too effective, while not being too ineffective if one does not play against the card being hated.

About "you can deal with it" - yes, you can. However decks play 4-power units (Wild Hunt Hound, Aretuza Adept) because they believe they can recoup the points lost with weather. Yes these weather decks can eventually kill the Greatswords with Scorch or similar, but because they've been playing 4-point bronzes, they're still going to lose. Further, since Greatswords turn weather into an engine worth 1 point a turn, it's only four turns before the Wild Hunt Hound / Aretuza Adept become worth negative points. That's worse than outright discarding them! Moving them with Drowners is similar - since the damage from Drowners is absorbed, the Drowners become 7-point bronzes. Killing them before they grow is unfeasible; you got 2 turns to do 8 damage. Weather does 2, but you still need to do five, and that's not easy.

I still think Greatswords own weather too hard. Marauders aren't that bad since they don't actually gain points, but Greatswords are RIP.

 

[Jeydra]

Bump. The interaction between Greatswords and fog has got to be one of the most ridiculous in the game.

Maybe make it so that Greatswords register both self-inflicted damage and opponent-inflicted damage, and it can only heal itself of self-inflicted damage.

 

[Khreygond]

I mean, that's true, but I don't think it's a problem. Decks have their strengths and weaknesses. So does weather and so do Greatswords actually. They may be the reason why Deathwish's popularity and winrate has fallen now but really, I don't see a problem with that. Greatswords in turn have other weaknesses, even Reveal (if played right) stands a chance against them. While if they run against a tech'ed opponent, like everything, they'll get crushed.

 

[Jeydra]

However if you're running fog / RNR and queue into Greatswords, the game is close to over from the start. The mechanic invalidates too many of your cards. Teching against Greatswords is nontrivial as well. Since a big chunk of your deck is now dead, you need to pull some serious weight with your hate cards, and it just isn't enough. With Freyas to resurrect the Greatswords as well you need an inordinate number of hate cards to start swinging the matchup in your favour. I'm not saying it can't be done, but you would have to run something like Miruna + Igni + Ozzrel + Artefact Comrpession in your Dagon deathwish deck before you can have a good matchup. Heck, that might not even be enough especially since Miruna can be answered. You just have too many dead cards: Archespore, for example, might easily be worth less than 10 points even in a 10-card round.

You can see similar issues with Axemen. With RNR now useless (Heatwave is impacted as well, but to a lesser extent), the Axemen deck is forced to rely on Axemen to generate points, and the GS deck runs Mandrake + Coral. To swing the matchup, the Axemen deck might need something like Muzzle + Artefact Compression (can't run Scorch since it'll just Scorch itself against other decks) + Donar, which is a heavy deckbuilding cost. None of these cards are ideal in other matchups.

 

[Khreygond]

Yeah that is true but this has always been going on. It's the same with Nekkers really. And most importantly, Axemen. When any of these decks get too popular, the meta adapts to shut it down because of how oppressive they are. They can be countered but both really have dedicated counters (Sweers, AC, Mandrake which is the only common counter of these 2 decks). I guess Greatswords are similar to an extent. Their counters are also dedicated to types of decks like them. I am not sure if that's a problem or not. I know I hate playing against the former 2 but not against Greatswords. Maybe it's just that I haven't used a weather deck against them for a while. The last matchup of my dagon deathwish vs Greatswords did end badly though.

 

[FG15-ISH7EG]

If you play a weather deck, you should have units that profit from weather being on the opponents side. Be it units that directly profit as Ancient Foglets, or units profiting from enemies being wounded/killed or just tools to punish rowstacking. If someone runs neither of these and just runs weather for raw points, I believe it is his own fault.
Of course even if some of these tools are included, Great Swords are a bad matchup, but it isn't as bad as without them.

 

[partci]

If you play a weather deck, you should have units that profit from weather being on the opponents side...

Those are only Ancient Foglets and they cannot compare to Greatswords at all. Your only salvation is a lot of movement and a good finisher, provided you get the chance to get to R3...

I think what weather decks are more in need is slight buff in points to some units (namely Hounds, Foglets and Sirens). They're being outtempoed with ease after the Midwinter Fiasco.

 

[Jeydra]

Ancient Foglet is barely a help against Greatswords. Greatswords under fog boost at ~1 point / turn. Ancient Foglets boost at the same rate, i.e. you're only breaking even. I can't offhand think of any playable units that profit from enemies being wounded or killed. As for punishing rowstacking, the two obvious cards are Lacerate & Hailstorm, and if you use those, you have one turn and then the Greatswords are back at full strength.

I don't think weather needs a buff. It's just that Greatswords make any control tool that doesn't kill them outright bad, and weather is the one that's most impacted.

 

[Jeydra]

Bump. I had this game where my opponent and I went into round 3 with one card each. I had a 14-strength Swordmaster, he apparently had a Priestess of Freya with an 18-strength Greatsword in the graveyard. This happened.

I played something.
He played Freya ressing Greatsword.
I played Swordmaster hitting his Greatsword.
He played something (Greatsword ticks once)
I passed.
Greatsword resets to 20 strength. He passed.

Some 14-strength Swordmaster that actually has "boost an enemy unit by 2" instead of its normal effect. I think it's pretty ridiculous (and yes, I should've hit the Freya instead, but I realized by that point I was going to lose anyway).

 

[Pruny]

Thats why is keep schiru instead of swordmaster in round 3.

 

[Khreygond]

Hmm, I don't know about greatswords owning weather too hard. From my experience I've won two out of three matches against them with Axemen. A very weather dependent deck, plus in all matches, my opponent had both Coral and Mandrake.

 

[Jeydra]

Hmm, I don't know about greatswords owning weather too hard. From my experience I've won two out of three matches against them with Axemen. A very weather dependent deck, plus in all matches, my opponent had both Coral and Mandrake.

Axemen has an unfavourable matchup vs. Greatswords. You need to mulligan away RNR (this is a bold move if all you know is your opponent is Crach - he could equally be playing Veterans and then RNR becomes one of your best cards!) and keep all Axemen. You also preferably should be playing a version with Priestess of Freya, because you really need to reuse your Axemen or you have no chance. The matchup is still unfavourable because of Coral and Mandrake answering two of your four Axemen (including Derren as an Axeman), you have no proactive plays, and they'll easily win a short round 3.

Axemen is especially disfavoured on the blue coin. You can imagine it yourself. You can't drypass because you'll probably lose in round 3 (even if you go into round 3 up a card - see what happens above with Greatswords shrugging off a 14-strength Swordmaster). But you also lack proactive plays. At best you could do something like play Derren first, which is usually a bad sign. They play a Greatsword. Now what? Against any other matchup you'd play weather, but against GS, you can't play weather, you can't use a Warship or Whaler because the GS just resets, and you can't play more Axemen because they'll simply play onto another row. Either way, it's an unfavourable matchup.

 

[4RM3D]

Axemen has an unfavourable matchup vs. Greatswords.

Except that the Longship is giving Axemen free points. Besides, you can still use weather, if you can prevent the Craiteswords from being hit. On a red coin, you'll have a decent chance to win.

 

[Jeydra]

Longships buff Axemen, yes, but it's only by one point. The Longship is still an engine that generates points, unlike weather. There will eventually come a time when Greatswords soak up your weather damage, which compensates the Longship buffing Axemen. Preventing the Greatswords from being hit by weather is why I mentioned mulliganing away RNR. The other three weather are still vulnerable to Greatswords as well. Heatwave is affected the least, but there's still nothing stopping the opponent from playing a GS onto an empty, Heatwaved row.

Don't get me wrong, the matchup is not abysmal, but it's disfavoured (especially if they're also running Muzzle). Axemen might win 40% of the time. Up to you if you call that "decent".

 

[Khreygond]

See here's the thing. All my matchups against Greatswords were with me the blue coin. Opponent had all the hard counters he needed for my axemen. And I still won 2 out of 3, even when going in a short round against them and playing both gold weathers. One opponent was smart enough to use his mandrake on a greatsword instead of my axemen in the long round 2. And even though my weather gave the greatswords points, it wasn't enough to match the points I gained, leaving me in the third round with a card up. You can also disrupt his longships and greatswords by moving the longships on a different row but take care to do that after they've played their grearswords so that they don't just play a new one where the longship is.

Priestesses suck though. Sigrdrifa, Restore and decoy are already enough revivals for axemen that are also flexible if you don't draw corsairs.

I am convinced a decent axemen deck has an advantage against everything in this meta's top tier. I am debating the Hym vs Coral for the last gold slot and whether to pick a couple of tuirseach veterans, just so Mandrake won't banish axemen and derran.

 

[Jeydra]

What rating are you at? I played Axemen at top 100 level and I'm certain it has an unfavourable matchup vs. Greatsword. You describe a situation where the opponent used Mandrake on a Greatsword. What the heck? Why would anyone not use Mandrake to kill an Axeman / Derren especially? Even if you're running a Veteran to get out of kill range, it should still be a very obvious play to use Mandrake to reset a big Axeman / Derren, unless he was behind by over 30 points, which should not happen even in a long round 2.

You can go into round 3 up a card vs. GS and still lose, because a lot of your cards are negated. Harald, Warship, Whaler, basically they all lose value if you have to hit a GS.

You can move Longships but once you do that, odds are you have weather hitting the Greatsword (especially the case if you had Skellige Storm on the row). Or you can move Greatswords, in which case you just played an 8-point bronze since the Greatsword mops up your Whaler damage.

Priestesses are bad but you really need multiple Axemen to win against GS. It's your only engine since weather is largely negated. Sigrdrifa is one res. Decoy could be another, if you're lucky, since Coral / Mandrake permanently answer Axemen. Restore on Axemen is usually bad since using it on Pirate Captain is more points, unless you're in a long round 3, which should not happen.

If you don't believe Axemen has a bad matchup vs. Greatsword, we can play some games.