How to fix Imlerith: Sabbath

[TheEpicWhale]

How to fix Imlerith: Sabbath

*Please mods, dont just stick this under a 4 month old thread.*

Now that all the rage about this card has died down a bit and hardly anyone seems to play him anymore,
I was thinking about what good changes to this card would be.
Because at the moment i am afraid he will just be made *doomed* and then be done with.
I don't think that would be the right fix for this card. Or not the only change it should get.

- idea 1: Make him duel the highest opponent on the opposite row.

- idea 2: Make him only duel an opponent under ice.

- idea3: Both.

All these ideas would at least fix the problem where the player of Imlerith can just pass and have him clear the board.
It would also force the player to at least bring drowners or bridge trolls.

Other than that i do think he should have some stat changes, like 4 armour instead of 2, maybe 1 more power.
But no longer heal or regen armour. Either remove on of them or both.

Another fix could be to give him a higher core power, but that he can no longer be strengthened beyond that.

Some ideas i have been playing with. I am sure there is some tweaking.
But i think now there can be a much more reasonable discussion about this card.
Because i really love the core idea of him, but it feels dirty to play him.

 

[4RM3D]

Because at the moment i am afraid he will just be made *doomed* and then be done with.

Which has also been suggested here.

idea 2: Make him only duel an opponent under ice.

No, interesting, but no. The plain old Imlerith already this condition and actually should be buffed to destroy a non-gold unit under Frost. As for Sabbath, he needs something else.

PS. Updated the topic of the thread to better reflect its content.

 

[G4merY]

I don't think he needs fixing. He's a powerful card, but an Imlerith: Sabbath deck cannot lead the Ranked Leaderboard. On the other hand, changing or nerfing it in anyway will break him.

 

[TheEpicWhale]

No, interesting, but no. The plain old Imlerith already this condition and actually should be buffed to destroy a non-gold unit under Frost. As for Sabbath, he needs something else.

PS. Updated the topic of the thread to better reflect its content.

I do mean he duels an opponent under ice at the end of every turn.
Not just once. Just a bit more restricted than he is now.

 

[thirdeye50]

I think for
1) He should activate at the begging of turn not end
2) Agree he should not regain armour
3) If under hazard takes 3 damage instead

 

[Bleach25]

*Please mods, dont just stick this under a 4 month old thread.*

Now that all the rage about this card has died down a bit and hardly anyone seems to play him anymore,
I was thinking about what good changes to this card would be.
Because at the moment i am afraid he will just be made *doomed* and then be done with.
I don't think that would be the right fix for this card. Or not the only change it should get.

- idea 1: Make him duel the highest opponent on the opposite row.

- idea 2: Make him only duel an opponent under ice.

- idea3: Both.

All these ideas would at least fix the problem where the player of Imlerith can just pass and have him clear the board.
It would also force the player to at least bring drowners or bridge trolls.

Other than that i do think he should have some stat changes, like 4 armour instead of 2, maybe 1 more power.
But no longer heal or regen armour. Either remove on of them or both.

Another fix could be to give him a higher core power, but that he can no longer be strengthened beyond that.

Some ideas i have been playing with. I am sure there is some tweaking.
But i think now there can be a much more reasonable discussion about this card.
Because i really love the core idea of him, but it feels dirty to play him.

You can play Frost

3x (tutored) with hounds
2x with white Frost
1x with Caranthir
Another with waedermaker

Most decks don't bother running one weather counter (except Scoia'tael and sometimes NR) so Frost condition wouldn't really be an option

Honestly Sabbath is probably one of the greatest developers' mistakes and right now matches against it are too binary, so I'd rather see him nerfed heavily or remove completely. That's my two cents

 

[BlunderMan]

At a bare minimum he should be doomed. Having to deal with him three rounds in a row is infuriating.

 

[giorno]

1) doom
2) same row only
etc.

 

[Jeydra]

The #1 thing that should happen with Sabbath is that he should NOT win the game if unanswered. Fix that first, and then we can think about how to make him more viable while keeping his design.

I don't like the changes in the OP because Sabbath is already not a very good card, and he doesn't need nerfs; he needs a rework.

 

[TheEpicWhale]

I still don't think that doomed on him is really a fix, just an easy way out.
That will just kill a card with some good potential.

I also see asking for a fix, but not a nerf. well, when is something a nerf and when is something a rework?

I have been suggesting to limit his targets to 1 row or under hazard.

You can play Frost

3x (tutored) with hounds
2x with white Frost
1x with Caranthir
Another with waedermaker

Most decks don't bother running one weather counter (except Scoia'tael and sometimes NR) so Frost condition wouldn't really be an option

So just because decks don't run weather control we should no longer use weather?
I think you have not thought about this clearly. At the very least it is a nonsense argument.

If the player needs to keep frost on the board:

- he needs to fill his deck with these cards
- he needs to spend turns keeping frost going, so not spending it to heal or boost imlerith

But with limitations to his targets there should also come a slight boost in power.
Altough this can be very subtle, given how duel works.

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[TheEpicWhale]

I think for
1) He should activate at the begging of turn not end
2) Agree he should not regain armour
3) If under hazard takes 3 damage instead

I would be curious to see how he would work out if he would activate turn start.
It would make it more fair, but maybe he should also attack once at deploy as well.
Otherwise he might be just a 5point play in 80% of the games.

I dont see much sense in the extra damage under hazard. That is hardly going to stop him.
But maybe he could receive extra damage when damaged, much like Golyat.

 

[1990BW]

The main problem I have with this card is that it's a dominant removal machine.
If you can't counter him and your opponent has the oppertunity to mandrake, boost and resilience it he's unstopable.
In arena Sabbath is a fun card especially when you have multiple of them so (#1) moving him to Arena with it's current ability could be a option.

(#2) Another option is letting him duel at the start of a turn but this alone can make it the most stupid card in the game.
It will do nothing when he gets removed or he gets easily beaten by something strong played by your opponent.
In order to improve the removal weakness Sabbath can be made immune this will also stop the mandrake/resilience/boosting thing.

The point of concern of making him ummune will be the boosting with Wild Hunt Drakkars and Royal decree.
Playing enough Drakkars (with Nekker Warriors/WH Navigators/Operator/Decoy) can make him a unstoppable finisher.
So he shouldn't interact with them or the boost must disappear when he gets reset after his first duel.

Another issue is the armor reset/gain if he wins too much duels the armor can make him unstopable as well.
In this case the armor reset/gain ability should be removed.

The biggest problem is perhaps the unlimited amount of duels.
It can have to much control in a match which isn't fun to play against to be honest.
In order to fix this his number of duels should be limited.

Last but not least is the ability to ressurect the only way to find this out is by testing it.
The value it can get in different match-ups should indicate this.

(#3) My last option would be turning him into a Gold engine finisher.
He will duel once but his (duel) power can be greater by the amount of Drakkars on the board.
This is my personal preference because this will be a engine deck + Sabbath can't dominate the match anymore with unlimited duels.
If you play royal decree and have a few Drakkars on the board he's a great finisher.
Opponents need to play more counters to not get trashed by Sabbath.

Summary:
The options are:

1 Move to arena
2 Change it
3 Engine finsher

Option 2:
- Duel at the start of your turn
- Immunity
- No boost from drakkars or duel boosted once and reset
- No armor reset
- Limit his number of duels
- Ressurect must be tested

Option 3:
- Engine finsher: duel once + drakkar synergy

 

[Gamer_Matt]

I dont see him as a threat, in ranked he is easily dealt with by one mandrake or by a couple of alzurs, then the opponent forfeits. So my advice is, always make your decks versatile

 

[Jeydra]

I dont see him as a threat, in ranked he is easily dealt with by one mandrake or by a couple of alzurs, then the opponent forfeits. So my advice is, always make your decks versatile

Mandrake is the only foolproof answer, but you have to actually draw the Mandrake. If you don't have it, or a way to tutor it, when Sabbath hits the battlefield, you could easily lose. Now of course the odds that you draw it are higher than you not drawing it. But there's still a nontrivial chance that you will not draw it. Alzur's Thunder cannot answer a Sabbath that's above 9 toughness - not that hard to do, a single Royal Decree is likely to suffice. If Sabbath doesn't die at once it's usually also buffed with their own Mandrake, Parasite, etc.

The other problem with Sabbath is that the very threat of Sabbath can force you to not pass. Like, game starts, opponent plays a bunch of engines. You're up 20 points and a card. Pass? You could, and against many other decks that'd be fine, but against Sabbath you could get wiped out by the opponent playing Sabbath + Adrenaline Rush into Mandrake at the start of the next round. This kind of play can come out of any Monsters leader except Arachas Queen.

At this point, I practically just ignore the possibility of Sabbath. If my opponent has it and I haven't drawn my answers, I concede and go next. I probably win more games than I lose vs. Sabbath, but win or lose those games are not fun. I don't even make any decisions, it's all a matter of "did I draw Mandrake or not".

 

[Bleach25]

I still don't think that doomed on him is really a fix, just an easy way out.
That will just kill a card with some good potential.

I also see asking for a fix, but not a nerf. well, when is something a nerf and when is something a rework?

I have been suggesting to limit his targets to 1 row or under hazard.



So just because decks don't run weather control we should no longer use weather?
I think you have not thought about this clearly. At the very least it is a nonsense argument.

let me flip this: if a banch of guys play Imlerith, everyone needs to have weather clear?
and let's not forget that you need several of them to counter weather spam

If the player needs to keep frost on the board:

- he needs to fill his deck with these cards most Frost decks already run these cards.


- he needs to spend turns keeping frost going, so not spending it to heal or boost imlerith losing turns or even card advantage means very little against Imlerith. I once Highrolled him against Brouver with Uma (I was two cards down) passed and Imlerith did the job for me without even buffing him lol. Now, it was very funny but still very broken

But with limitations to his targets there should also come a slight boost in power.
Altough this can be very subtle, given how duel works.

Also, picture this scenario: If Sabbath is still niche and players aren't running a lot of weather removals

If my opponent rowstacks into Frost it's a lot of free target for Imlerith

If he doesn't you just spam Frost

True if the opponent has enough counters (like Witchers or silver mages) he won't care. But if he doesn't, it's auto-loss

except for Frost tempo loss there's little drawback

And when you can't counter it's at the very least turn winner


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[Romanians]

- idea 1: Make him duel the highest opponent on the opposite row.

This. Or just random enemies on the opposite row. I wouldn't mind that either. This would give the enemy player some way to play around Imlerith other than passing.

Having his effect work on turn start would remove some of his immediate value while still keeping him viable and forcing the player to respond somehow.

 

[LTK]

This seems like such an obvious suggestion that there must be a good reason for Duel not to work this way, but why doesn't it deal damage simultaneously? If Imlerith took the damage of the unit he duels before his own power value is subtracted, he'd still effectively eliminate weaker cards, but he'd be more easily counterable by units that exceed his power.

This is the same complaint I have with Treason, which doesn't indicate which of the two dueling enemies strikes first. If I want to use treason on a 16-power unit and a 10-power unit, choosing the right unit lets me deal a total of 24 damage, while choosing the wrong one only deals 10. Dueling them simultaneously would even that out to 20.

 

[TrompeLaMort]

Design-wise, I think making him doomed would be alright. Losing a round if you have no answer is much less triggering than losing the entire game. And I don't think that would kill the card: the less meme decks that run Imlerith don't even run renew; only the pure one-trick pony deck does.

But honestly, this discussion is pointless. CDPR has already indicated that he won't be changed this month ("only wardancer and create"), and comes HC every card will change, so it is hard to know if and how he would be balanced then. (And whether he will even continue with the same ability.)

 

[TheEpicWhale]

I don't think the discussion is pointless just because he isn't changed this month.
CDPR is in the habit of changing their mind a lot.
There are people who like to see this card played more without the dirty feeling.
And i really do think doomed is just gonna make him see play even less.
It will also fix nothing because if you can't counter him, you're still in shot if he is made resilient.
I still think the frequency of his duel triggering should be brought down.
I like the idea of him just picking a random target. Him getting damaged first would make him close to useless though.

 

[kaanakyuz]

i think best way, sabbath need timer ( 2 ) .. every 2 turn Duel highest enemy..
and doom tag.