More Abilities like Lock Rather than Total Removal

[l_WHIT3WOLF_l]

More Abilities like Lock Rather than Total Removal

Hello, I would prefer more abilities like Lock then total removal of card from board. Few Suggestion Like...

1] Lock
Permanently lock the card

2] Freeze
Freeze card & its adjacent for 3 turn

3] Paralyze
Paralyze card for 3 turn & damage by 1 par turn till paralyzed.

4] Stoned / Statue
Stoned the card but add 5 base strength to card. Stoned card will get banished once enter in graveyard.

5] Confused
Confuse card will use it's ability on other side for X turn. For Exp. Triss Butt will buff opp. units or Yen Con going to damage own side units.

These are just suggestion but main point is removing total removal of card from board.

 

[ClimbHigh]

Good idea!

 

[Pruny]

Lock is already available but its useless in this meta vomit point spam braindead netdecks.
What can i lock against alchemy? At least i smash them with crushing trap and scorch.

 

[l_WHIT3WOLF_l]

What can i lock against alchemy?

I hope you read the suggestion with title. I am suggesting more abilities for engine to stop them somehow rather than focusing on control decks like alchemy which is braindead archetype imo.

Point spam is not a problem if there are some interesting abilities available to counter as well if you ask me Nr Machine, Sk Great Sword, Soc. Elf Buff. Mo Consume are the best archetypes we have which focus more on own deck & strategy & proper play or misplay can makes really good difference in points.
We need more archetypes which revolves on tags like Hensalt machine Crewman ability, So many different option available to play & you need to manage opp. board too for more points.

No cards like Viper witcher or Immirith :/

 

[TrompeLaMort]

I wrote a thread a while ago asking for something similar (https://forums.cdprojektred.com/for...-aa/suggestions-aa/10842421-hc-removal-rework).

On other approaches to lock, I think that is very cool. In another thread about Eredin rework, people suggested that some Wild Hunt units should have this "freeze" ability, that works like a 2-3 round lock. (And other WH units could damage (or do other stuff to) frozen units.)

Even frost could do that (as well as other potential effects). That would be a way to give meaningful and interesting differences between the hazards and boons. (They would have other stuff.)

 

[l_WHIT3WOLF_l]

Nice suggestion u have there, Yes if they add more abilities then direct removal, game will become more interesting as well positioning also going to be important.

I don't mind card removal too but it should give opp. chance to counter it having turn counter on card like cow dung & it's nice that if damage & buff ability on all cards will work on any side so that we can decide which side is better to target for our advantage.

 

[Laveley]

The problem with lock or any card effect that just "disable" an opponent effect is that it hasnt any point value itself. You depend on the opponent card effect to get some value out of the card. Thats why nobody uses lock anymore. What if your opponent doesnt use engines? You are left with a 0 point value on your hand. Nobody wants that, as nobody used clear skies back in time even when weather was very powerful since you would always face someone who wouldnt use weather, like... at all.

Removal at least gives you points.

The only cards that gives you points + lock are the silver ones. But those arent really worth it since you have cheaper forms of removal on bronzes that essentially serve the same purpose.

Theres nothing wrong with viper witchers for example, except for the fact that they have too much value; a 15+ bronze removal card that can be rez multiple times is a little bit too much. A viper witcher with 15 power+lock would be as good as it is now, well except maybe a little weaker just for the fact of no ointment synergy anymore, but as for intrinsic value it would be virtually the same.

So, in short, as i already explained on the thread linked above, removal per se isnt a problem at all.

 

[l_WHIT3WOLF_l]

But no1 is suggested to add such abilities as a special cards. We can have those abilities on units too as those are not permanent ability like lock but will work on turn so i don't see any problem if any bronze units will get them as for me it's far better than viper witcher.

Theres nothing wrong with viper witchers

Maybe it's not strong but is it challenging gameplay or entertaining? nope it's not like you just have to play the card & remove opp. main cards with it that's it. I am against such a gameplay & would prefer something more calculative.

 

[Laveley]

But no1 is suggested to add such abilities as a special cards. We can have those abilities on units too as those are not permanent ability like lock but will work on turn so i don't see any problem if any bronze units will get them as for me it's far better than viper witcher.

But thats pretty much what i said. People use removal now instead of lock, like viper witchers vs d-shackles, just because removal have generally more value attached to it.

You want people to use more "lock-like" cards? Bump their value.

Maybe it's not strong but is it challenging gameplay or entertaining? nope it's not like you just have to play the card & remove opp. main cards with it that's it. I am against such a gameplay & would prefer something more calculative.

i dont know why you think lock is more "challenging or entertaining" than pure removal. they are different mechanics, but in short have the same exact purpose. people just use removal instead of lock nowadays because removal has more value than lock. thats it.

put a 15 body on d-shackles and see if it doesnt become an auto-include on pretty much every deck.

 

[l_WHIT3WOLF_l]

But thats pretty much what i said. People use removal now instead of lock, like viper witchers vs d-shackles, just because removal have generally more value attached to it. You want people to use more "lock-like" cards? Bump their value.

People are using removal coz it's easy to use, it's available in bronze, not every faction having resurrection abilities & of course as u said it's having body & that's what I am saying no1 is asking here to make new abilities as a special cards which not going to have body. Suggestion is about adding more abilities to stop the cards which having par turn abilities.

i dont know why you think lock is more "challenging or entertaining" than pure removal. they are different mechanics, but in short have the same exact purpose. people just use removal instead of lock nowadays because removal has more value than lock. thats it. put a 15 body on d-shackles and see if it doesnt become an auto-include on pretty much every deck.

I am not saying lock is more "challenging or entertaining" but I am saying adding abilities like which is suggested in thread will be more "challenging or entertaining" as those are not going to be permanent basis but will get auto removed after X turns.

 

[Laveley]

People are using removal coz it's easy to use, it's available in bronze, not every faction having resurrection abilities & of course as u said it's having body & that's what I am saying no1 is asking here to make new abilities as a special cards which not going to have body. Suggestion is about adding more abilities to stop the cards which having par turn abilities.



I am not saying lock is more "challenging or entertaining" but I am saying adding abilities like which is suggested in thread will be more "challenging or entertaining" as those are not going to be permanent basis but will get auto removed after X turns.

Well, this is clearly going nowhere and we are just repeating ourselves. To lock effect cards be usable, they need better value than removal, thats it. you can switch their effects whatever you want, if their value is still crap on comparison with removal, people will still use removal no matter what since the removal/lock function is essentially the same. in fact all the silver locks have already some extra effects on top of them and people still dont use'em. nuff said.

 

[l_WHIT3WOLF_l]

Well, this is clearly going nowhere and we are just repeating ourselves. To lock effect cards be usable, they need better value than removal, thats it. you can switch their effects whatever you want, if their value is still crap on comparison with removal, people will still use removal no matter what since the removal/lock function is essentially the same. in fact all the silver locks have already some extra effects on top of them and people still dont use'em. nuff said.

Removal & lock is not same as you can unlock the card which is locked as well lock card still have its strength on board but removal is totally different as not every faction having resurrection as well total removal means minus card strength too which is more bad.

Players are using removal as ever1 knows it's better than lock & nothing is surprising here as you are getting removal from bronze cards plus other advantages are there like you are adding strength to your side by making opp. almost handicap without key cards & at least I don't see any fun in this.

I am done, Thanks.

 

[SigilFey]

Let's keep it polite and friendly people. One post edited, and I agree that it's time to move the discussion on to some other detail. If it feels like things are getting tense, it's time to take a break.

 

[Hybridizati0nn]

The problem with lock or any card effect that just "disable" an opponent effect is that it hasnt any point value itself. You depend on the opponent card effect to get some value out of the card. Thats why nobody uses lock anymore. What if your opponent doesnt use engines? You are left with a 0 point value on your hand. Nobody wants that, as nobody used clear skies back in time even when weather was very powerful since you would always face someone who wouldnt use weather, like... at all.

Removal at least gives you points.

The only cards that gives you points + lock are the silver ones. But those arent really worth it since you have cheaper forms of removal on bronzes that essentially serve the same purpose.

Theres nothing wrong with viper witchers for example, except for the fact that they have too much value; a 15+ bronze removal card that can be rez multiple times is a little bit too much. A viper witcher with 15 power+lock would be as good as it is now, well except maybe a little weaker just for the fact of no ointment synergy anymore, but as for intrinsic value it would be virtually the same.

So, in short, as i already explained on the thread linked above, removal per se isnt a problem at all.

I think this is a too simplistic view and is the reason the game has become the "bad" Gwent which it is in my opinion. (moderators happy now??)

Of course nobody is using lock, because removal is just a superior choice. But because removal is so easy and superior choice, almost nobody is using engine cards either because they get removed at an instant. Removing most (but not all) removal cards would make engines playable again. And then in the lack of the superior (could argue overpowered) method of removal players would run the lock -like mechanics because you really don't wanna let opponents engine cards run free. Meta and gameplay would be a lot healthier with strategy requiring engines and strategy requiring counters and also counters to counters.

 

[Laveley]

Of course nobody is using lock, because removal is just a superior choice. But because removal is so easy and superior choice, almost nobody is using engine cards either because they get removed at an instant. Removing most (but not all) removal cards would make engines playable again. And then in the lack of the superior (could argue overpowered) method of removal players would run the lock -like mechanics because you really don't wanna let opponents engine cards run free. Meta and gameplay would be a lot healthier with strategy requiring engines and strategy requiring counters and also counters to counters.

Theres nothing wrong with removal mechanics. NOTHING. People dont use it because "its easy". Thats just a stupid statement really. Removal cards are used over lock just because they get more value, like i already said more than twice here.

Than again, removal AND lock are necessary to a healthy mettagame. I already explained this on another topic. You dont want a mettagame with powerful engines running rampart either. Axemen mettagame was the most hated one that i witnessed on this game. Obviously, if you nerf or delete removal, people will be forced to use locks. Did i ever said the opposite? Question is; why is it desirable on the first place? Again, whats the difference between a 15 point lock and a 15 point removal to the opposite engine? NONE. If you want more engines on the game? fine, BUFF ENGINES! Do you want people using more lock? fine, BUFF LOCKS.

Enough with this "NERF THIS OP PLOX, MECHANICS ARE IMBA OMG, OMG OMG CDPR TOO MUCH OPNEESSS, CDPR PLOX1!111!!1!", thats what really ruined this game

 

[Draconifors]

You're free to disagree with others, but please don't make it personal by using phrases like "players like you are the reason [for X]". That kind of comments are best left out of public threads, because they will often cause arguments.

Two more posts edited.

 

[time_drainer]

Removal vs (current) Locks: I'm with Laveley on this one. They're pretty much the same. They both do two things: give you some point value (in some combination of increasing your own and decreasing opponent's) and disable an engine. Neither of them are more "easy" or "interesting". There are different counters to them, like elimination can be countered with resurrection and buffing (usually it means handbuffing as engines tend to get insta-killed) while against locks the only counter is your own lock effect into unlock. But that's just technicality.

In general you want to add some kind of price to disabling engines, otherwise everybody just runs these type of cards in the masses and engines have no chance. Trick is to define a proper price. You make it too low, and they're almost free so again everybody runs them. Make it too high they become too weak against non-engine decks (aka swarm or "point spam").
In current state locks' price is too high, while you might argue that elimination's price is not high enough. Still if any kind of balance exists, it's a very delicate one, and I'm not convinced, that it's even possible. Maybe the best thing is just some weird rock-paper-scissor setup where engine beats point spam, point spam beats control and control beats engine.
But that problem holds true for both lock and elimination effects.

Alternative Lock suggestions in OP: while I find them flavorful, I don't think most of them give too much mechanically to warrant the introduction of a new keyword / effect.

• Freeze: this one I find interesting, temporary block versus complete disable may be good balance. But it needs to be tested as this temporary block may be just enough to render the engine effectively useless, so it wouldn't be too different from complete disable. It would also need to be properly priced, just like complete disabling with the same problems.
• Paralyze: so pretty much the same plus some damage over time as added bonus which has nothing to do the problem we're dealing with. I could see this effect on a specific card but it just makes no sense to me to include it as a separate mechanic.
• Stoned / Statue: so basically a worse Artifact Compression when it comes to engine elimination. But instead of finding alternative value against non-engines by dealing with high point enemy units, you could use it it to buff your own. Sounds interesting but based on how many points you add to the card I have a feeling it would be too weak against either engines or non-engines or just mildly unimpressive in both cases.
• Confused: very binary. It wouldn't create any value against non-engines or even against some engines like self-buffing ones. Other cases it would be just enough or insane value. So strongly against it.