Making "Create" mechanic a lot more fair and interesting.. [for devs and not only]

[Udalryk]

Making "Create" mechanic a lot more fair and interesting.. [for devs and not only]

..instead of restricting it to Arena mode only.

A big issue with current Create mechanic is indeed that it's too rng-ish, with no way to counter it, and often not fair. Another is just how straight forward and boring it is to play. I have an idea that would address both of these issues, allowing Create to be just like another balanced mechanic in Gwent (even though current Gwent is not a good example of a balanced/interesting game).

You simply change the order in which the created card is played. It's revealed and placed back in hand with a condition of having to play it exactly next turn. Ordering is important:

1) Play a Create card (if it has a "tutor" body, don't place it on board).
2) Before seeing the Create options, choose and play another card from your hand.
3) See the Create options, choose one created card and place it in your hand, revealed, having to play it next turn. (When playing it next turn, if it had a "tutor" body, place that body first.)

This way, the other player would know exactly which card is coming from his/her opponent next turn, allowing that player to take actions to avoid its potentially harmful effects. The player playing Create does not have the option to set up for his/her created card as he/she would not know what card they would choose, before playing a card.

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Potential issues and how to solve them

Create card's body might have too high power. Solution: Preferred rows and/or Effort mechanic.
The reason why many golds, silvers and some times bronzes with special conditions have high power bodies, is to compensate for those times you end up not being able to use their abilities. Effort mechanic or preferred rows mechanic has potential to make those cards a lot more balanced.

What if Create card is the last card in hand? Solution: This one is more trickier. A solution I can think of now is allowing the created card to be played same turn, but having one (or two) less option to choose from (so would be 2 (or 1) options if 3 was the original). (You won't be able to play another Create card same turn. If however you only have Create cards in your hand, you will play a Create card this turn, but with reduced options. This is not the best solution for this, other solutions are possible.)
(Another solution: Create cards could for example have an "if" option, "if last in hand or played same turn, spawn a 5 power token in one of your rows", or something else for different cards. In this new Gwent, more cards in general would not just be almost completely useless in some cases, but just "useless".)

You will be able to pass next turn, without having to play your created card same round (of course).

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Additional notes

As the card pool gets bigger in Gwent, a buff to Create after this significant nerf could be displaying 4 cards, instead of 3. There could simply be different types of Create, current would be called "Create 3", then there could be "Create 2", "Create 4" and "Create 1", depending on card pool size and strength of those cards.

This is a nice buff to Reveal archetype.

Create mechanic now won't cause any major upsets in competitive play. It's now a fairly balanced and more interesting mechanic.

 

[Laveley]

The simple fact is that this game never needed a mechanic such a create.

Is mind boggling really how they got rid of so many interesting, flavor and tactically deep mechanics on gwent and than added such an uninteresting and problematic rng-driven one like create.

We all know that they didnt added create on an attempt to balance the game or make it strategically better/appealing. They added on a desperate attempt to attract casuals, on a naive move copycating a "fun" mechanic from another successful casual game, thinking it would have marginal effects on competitive play while appealing to casuals. Turns out they were obviously wrong.

So basically some people are now discussing how to "fix" create but, in other words, they just want to achieve what CDPR wish they had done on first place but were too incompetent to do it (or most probably didnt even tried it really); make it so create will be bad enough to not negatively impact competitive play. On the meantime, casuals will still not be attracted to gwent and its create mechanics because, well, as we all know, hearthstone exists.

So why keep it?

Why rely on gimmicks to fix an unnecessary and problematic rng mechanic by design on the first place? I will trade create for immunity, row-lock (or bonuses) and faction passives anytime.

On the limit, here is a much simpler way to "fix" the mechanic; just remove the rng part of it. Slave driver can summon any bronze card of your choice from enemy deck. Triss can summon any bronze special of your choice from either your or your opponents deck. Black blood working as a modified version of monster nest. Etc. Obviously some of those cards will become "op" or "broken" by the majority standarts. But thats just a matter of balancing them; like triss choosing only from your deck for example and only one type of special card like, say, spells. Black blood being monster faction specific. Putting a limitation on slave driver, only 3 power or less from opponent deck, etc.

That is much easier to do than just trying to balance rng through gimmicks.

just my 2 cents.

 

[Udalryk]

So why keep it?

There is a good argument in favor of keeping it (of course only in the form I suggested, or similar). It's the versatility it adds to your own games, occasional fun interaction. Some times finding the answer you didn't have is just a part of this mechanic. And it's not a bad thing IF your opponent gets a chance to react to it, which is exactly what I suggest (in addition to added Effort to Create cards with bodies, etc). The one playing Create would be at a pretty big disadvantage, in most cases. You can even pass if you're ahead on points for example, after seeing that the card your opponent will play would be very advantageous for him this round, or not passing when behind on points, seeing that his card would be good in next round, etc.
I think this kind of Create adds something cool to the game.

But this mechanic would really fit best in with all other changes to mechanics, in a future new Gwent. Probably a Gwent we will never see though, but it's still fun to daydream!

 

[l_WHIT3WOLF_l]

I will prefer more fixed abilities on card with different conditions to use particular ability than create as at least it's not going to be quite rng-ish, Like...

Some Card with abilities like..
- Spawn clear weather if there is more than 2 different weather available on board
- Damage enemy by 5 if row strength is less than 15
- Lock unit if it's strength less than or equal to 4

Above abilities are just for ref. purpose only. The whole point is to add conditional abilities rather than create.

 

[CallMeHoot]

Your solution, while well meaning, is intrinsically flawed.

Foreknowledge of what someone has "Created" would be a fine balance to the system if GWENT was a reactive game. Decks are set. The only cards you have are the cards you've put in your deck before the game has began. Someone using "Create" could potentially draw ANY card in the game, many of which you won't have answers to so all your method will do is just give someone foreknowledge of how they've been highrolled.

No, there is NO GOOD ARGUMENT to keep "Create" in the game. Again, people miss the point about why "Create" is a shit mechanic. I see this reasoning every time :- "Oh well, the guy playing "Create" will draw no answers just as often as he draws answers!" and "Oh, it adds versatility to a deck!".

Both of those comments, while factually accurate, do not address the problem intrinsic with "Create". There is no skill to it. There is no way to play around a high roll or a low roll. It removes player agency from the game. Your solution would do nothing to change that. The guy getting highrolled would simply be aware he was highrolled two turns before he was actually highrolled. Look at the final game in the recent GWENT Challenger. Freddybabes got screwed because Tailbot, running Black Blood in a freaking Nilfgaard deck, miraculously drew a Nekurat using that card and cleared a row that Freddybabes would have been able to win that game with. Complete RNG. Completely unforseeable. Completely removing player agency from both players. Tailbot just had to pray to the RNGesus and Freddybabes just had to watch as his careful plan got bodied by a bullshit card.

No, it's bad and no amount of balancing will fix the core issue of what is wrong with "Create".

I'm getting sick of these endless, straw-man "let's defend this bad mechanic that has forced many players away from the game!" arguments. It's a fucking bad mechanic and it needs to go. Totally ruins the game.

I will prefer more fixed abilities on card with different conditions to use particular ability than create as at least it's not going to be quite rng-ish, Like...

Some Card with abilities like..
- Spawn clear weather if there is more than 2 different weather available on board
- Damage enemy by 5 if row strength is less than 15
- Lock unit if it's strength less than or equal to 4

Above abilities are just for ref. purpose only. The whole point is to add conditional abilities rather than create.

I 100% agree with this statement. Conditional abilities are far, far more interesting and skill based (because you have to have meta knowledge to know how effective such a card will be in any given scenario) than just "play and hope" cards.

 

[TrompeLaMort]

I believe that making create really be like Discover (adding the card to the hand, without CA of course, instead of playing it immediately) would go a long way towards making it a more fun mechanic. I also think they should build more carefully the pool of cards create gets from, like with Shupe. Maybe they should change create into having a set pool, like spawn, but instead of the player choosing one, it randomly chooses.

Because (and this is totally off topic) I can't think of a single spawn card in the game today that is really interesting and well implemented. Monster Nest, for example, 90% of the time Ghoul is the obvious choice, sometimes the resilience one. A lot of the other choices are really idiotic (like Foglet).