Make Greatswords less great

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Make Greatswords less great

I'm not just talking about the card, but the deck that rules the meta. In past couple weeks it had the best win rate on high ranks (better than Brouver Spy abuse), and is one of the most popular decks.
The reason is the combination of powerful engines, insane consistency, resilience against most removal and some broken cards and combos that are overpowered even in isolation.
With all the nerfs happening and suggested to happen to Brouver and Henselt, I think it's only fair that this deck would also get some nerf.

So here's my package of suggestions to make the archetype a bit less strong.
  • Hym and Skjall shouldn't be able to pull Udalryk. While it's not part of the deck's core, it's just yet another Spy abuse, that's also crucial to why the archetype (and other SK decks) are more successful than they should be. In my opinion all Spy abuses should be eliminated, although I'd be happiest if they just eliminated CA Spies as a whole.
  • Pirate Captain should pull random Dimun unit instead of choosing one. The Captain is the main reason of why the deck is so insanely consistent. It's one of the few real Bronze tutors, that actually fetches what you need (the only other example comes to mind is Heymaey Protector, but he rarely can capitalize on this). This mechanic shouldn't exist on a Bronze card and while I'm not a fan of random unit drawing it would put him in line with NG's Recruit and Dwarven Agitator. I think he would still remain good addition to the deck, but it would be at least a risky card to play until you have a Ship in the grave.
  • Corsair's power should be lowered to 2 or even 1. It's a unit that puts another unit on the board, so it shouldn't be that strong. All other bronze cards that do this in one way or another give only 1 or 2 points in addition, and I see no reason why this one should provide more.
  • Restore's set power should be lowered to 4 or 5. It's too easy 19pt Silver even with Bearmasters, with current Captain -> Corsair -> Longship it's also 19pt, but also includes an engine (and again not that hard to setup). Although the best solution would be to completely rework the card instead, cause I think it's bad design: in order to not be OP it relies on no low power targets to exist in the game, that would let him generate too much value (we've already failed on this one), and the "putting back to hand" mechanic just makes no sense, other than an interaction with Bearmaster and Veterans that is just too strong and easy to exist.
I've left Greatswords themselves to the end as I have more than one idea to change them. I like the mechanic of generating carryover value over time, but the direct point value they generate with Lightships in addition is just too much. My other problem is that they act like a damage sponge: they laugh at weather and random damage engines like Mangonel, and you can't remove them with damage unless it's direct removal and you act fast (also it takes at least a Thunder for the Crached one), which is just too resistant for a unit that also has several resurrect options.

My first variant may not work well cause it's as much a buff as a nerf, which may make him too strong just in a different way. I would change his effect to "Strengthen by 1 on turn end if it was damaged this turn." (Similar to Farseer buffing.)
It would result in: ( (+) I consider effectively a buff, (-) a nerf)
(-) It would only generate 4 points over 2 turns instead of 6 with lightship.
(-) Removing the reset would remove the quasi-immunity to damage. Damage happening in opponent's turn wouldn't even trigger his ability, and if he got damaged in own turn for multiple points (like weather + ship + Spearmaiden) it would still only be 1pt Strengthening.
(+) Both carryover and direct point generation would be more linear, no 2 turn cycle anymore. With lightship they would generate each turn 2 direct and 1 carryover points instead of 1 direct on first turn, then 5 direct point and 2 carryover on second. Some might argue though that the 2 turn cycle brought in a nice tactical layer when playing against the card, as in you need to use the your damage card in just the right moment. However it also make the card more binary, i.e. if they remove him you gained nothing in 2 turns.
(+) Since the effect would now check getting some damage this turn instead of damaged state, buffing him would no longer be counterintuitive but a viable option to keep him alive.

In the second variant I would simply remove reset effect and leave the rest mostly the same. I'd probably make it Strengthen by 1 each turn start instead of by 2 each 2 turns to compensate a bit, but this variant would still be more of a nerf than the first one.
 
GS are OK, muzle and compresion destoys them, etc.

The only thing OP its pirate captain that let you choose any card. Make it show 2cards like elven mercs.
 
Pruny;n10951994 said:
GS are OK, muzle and compresion destoys them, etc.

The only thing OP its pirate captain that let you choose any card. Make it show 2cards like elven mercs.

They are singlehandedly one of the strongest Bronzes in the game. They're not ok.
 
Pruny;n10951994 said:
GS are OK, muzle and compresion destoys them, etc.

The only thing OP its pirate captain that let you choose any card. Make it show 2cards like elven mercs.

So if you don't draw Muzzle or/and AC in round 1 it should be game over for you? Every time?
 
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Depends what you are playind, there are decks that can get more value fast, or control decks.
Also game has vico,caretaker,ozrel,scorch,necromancy, eskel etc:)
​​​​​​ my Dagon fog deck is very bad against them but can win with Sucubus
 
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Just watched the developer stream about the changes. Changes to Brouver & Henselt deck seem like improvements, but SK became the only one of the unholy trio to stay untouched. So welcome to Greatswords meta I guess.
I presume we'll see a lot of Artifact Compressions & Muzzles from now on. I can only hope it will help a bit if everyone will arm against Greatswords. Still it doesn't look like it's gonna be a healthy meta.
 
I expect spies to rise in popularity to counter the greatswords. The army of vicovaros and the ability to place disloyal units between ships and greatswords makes spies one of the best counter decks. In fact this is evident by the meta report too. Emhyr spies have a 49. Something % winrate and usurper spies are tier 1 with 51% winrate in the highest tier
 

rrc

Forum veteran
A single copy of a Longship can be resurrected seven times in a game. Isn't it freaking insane? It is like SK players will be laughing whenever you try to remove a Longship. Priestess, Corsair and the silver card who resurrects. Also, very valid poing on Corsair. Why does a bronze unit which resurrects another bronze unit has 3 points? Shouldn't it 1?

I have answer for all these questions. The top architect/design-engineers/QA in CDPR all play SK decks. So, they don't want to touch it while nerfing all other factions. NR was specifically mentioned. NG was specifically mentioned. SC was specifically mentioned. Since Monsters were already not so powerful, and since it didn't need any nerf, it was left out. And CDPR's favorite SK was left untouched. Good Job CDPR.
 
time_drainer;n10951991 said:
although I'd be happiest if they just eliminated CA Spies as a whole
You're not alone with this.

time_drainer;n10951991 said:
the "putting back to hand" mechanic just makes no sense
it's good against graveyard hate, if you have two thing that you want from the graveyard before they steal it.
Also Restore doesn't counts as a Ressurection, because it doesn't triggers the Tuirseach Skirmisher's or the An Craite Marauders ability.


I think Greatswords should be 6 strength units, this way you could shoot them with units that hit 4-5, or Mandrake them and they would be harder to pull with Crach.
 
I don't know, I didn't really have a problem with greatswords, except with how they utterly WRECK weather decks. If you play Deathwish, fog or not, you are doomed, and it is hard with axemen too even though your opponent may be packing no counters. Eredin as well. it's just bad to have that in the game I think. I read somewhere that Greatswords shouldn't be reset, and I agree with that. Make it so that if they are damaged, they are strengthened by 1 every turn, but not reset. Also, 6 strength serves them right as well.
 
I had a similar thread about this some time ago: https://forums.cdprojektred.com/foru...ather-too-hard

Problem with Muzzle and Artefact Compression as counters is that they aren't really good counters. For Muzzle, the Greatsword deck can Muzzle back. I remember reading that Muzzle is only good in the Greatsword mirror, so it isn't that common right now; however after the patch Greatswords are presumably going to get a lot more popular in which case we can expect them to start running Muzzle too. Artefact Compression is a more drastic card that's obviously very powerful, but it's embarrassing against non-Greatsword decks. Like, just go through all the non-Greatsword decks on the ladder right now. Compression is only great against Consume. The best you can hope for against other archetypes is to Compress a big unit like an Axeman or something, which is acceptable if it works, but against other decks such as Adda, Foltest swarm, Dagon Deathwish, Mulligan, Veterans, etc, it's just flat out embarrassing.

I'm not convinced the strategy itself is broken but I keep looking for more / better hate cards vs. the deck, and just can't find anything very attractive. Lots of cards help, e.g. Vaedamakar is better than nothing, but not by a lot.

Maybe make units resurrected by Priestess of Freya doomed.
 
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Generally greatswords and ships have counters, what i agree with is Pirate Captain, that card is broken, it's the only bronze that pulls targeted units.
 
Iuliandrei;n10955252 said:
Generally greatswords and ships have counters, what i agree with is Pirate Captain, that card is broken, it's the only bronze that pulls targeted units.

Targeted units, yes, but SK do have another card at 2 STR that pulls targeted Items - the Heymaey Protector which seems kinda unfair compared to familiar Units in other factions. For example, Elven Mercs are 1 but they pull from 2 random cards, while the Vico Novices and the Tormented Mages are 2 and also pull between 2 random cards.
 
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It seems like a lot of people have trouble facing greatswords. Some general advice you can follow is:
  • Lose round 1, but not too quickly if you can help it
The greatswords matchup is a bit different than others. You are aiming for medium length rounds so that their passive point generation is not massive yet, but also, you want to get the first say in Round 3. That's why you want to lose round 1. How quickly you pass also depends on your deck's long term gameplan. Spies can safely drypass round 1, since their longterm gameplan is one of the most powerful in the game. Axemen can as well, but unlike spies, they lack the Greatsword hate, which puts them in a tighter spot. This is done so that you go first in round 3 and can shuffle/steal/eat the largest greatsword before they can revive it. The rule is only void if your greatsword hate cards rely on greatswords being on the board (Artefact Compression/Scorch), in which case, try to win Round 1, or push as much as you can.
  • GS Hate cards - MO:
Caretaker, Ozzrel
  • GS Hate cards - NG:
Yennefer: Necromancer, Assire, Vicovaro Medic, Auckes
  • GS Hate cards - SK:
Coral, Donar an Hindar
  • GS Hate cards - Neutral:
Necromancy, Artefact compression, Mandrake, Muzzle, G: Igni, Scorch (if you can replay it via Yen: Enchantress, Eithne, Villentretenmerth, Schirru, etc)


Greatswords should get strengthened by 1 instead of 2... Or get a timer of 3 turns instead of 2... Simple as that

Hah. I wish it was that simple. Except with your suggestion they still utterly destroy weather decks, don't they? Something better would be if they didn't reset to base strength every 2 turns

 
pirate captain cant brick thats the problem, i open with elven mercs chain and i see 2thunders, let them see 2corsairs in round1
:rage:
 
I'm really not a fan of nerfing this deck in any way.

It's a strong deck but not an OP one. The difference is huge because the point of a deck is actually to be good. If CDPR starts nerfing decks because they're performing we will never have a set meta and will always have the problem of a couple decks dominating it.

GS can crush in some games but unlike what you said, it's very inconsistent. How many times do you end up on turn 3 with Corsair(s) in hand and no target to pull off the graveyard for example. This example can be extended to every form of resurrection (which is why I only play a single Corsair in my version of this deck).
A lot of things has to go right in order to win the game and there is plenty of counters to it (Coral, AC, Scorch ect on a ship is back breaker, muzzle can steal your GS, heavily control decks are almost unbeatable...).
 
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GenLiu;n10956020 said:
GS can crush in some games but unlike what you said, it's very inconsistent. How many times do you end up on turn 3 with Corsair(s) in hand and no target to pull off the graveyard for example.
About once every 20 match? At least that's my experience playing against them. With Captains and Spearmaiden, it's very rare that I don't see all 3 ships on board during first round. I see Corsair's often discarded with Udalryk, but that's not because he doesn't have a target, but because they just don't need yet another ship.

Sure there are a couple decks that naturally count it (control decks mostly). But majority of the decks are disfavored unless they tech heavily against it. That's the indication of an OP deck in my opinion. Of course it would be even worse, if no counters would exist at all.

Brouver spy abuse decks were OP before the patch. Henselt was OP. Now they both get nerfed and we'll have to wait and see where they end up. Still Greatswords had a better win rate than those pre-nerf OP decks. If that's not being OP, nothing is.

Although there's still a chance that they not end up being the top deck of the patch, if they force everyone and their mother to tech against them like crazy. But I don't think that's gonna be a healthy meta either.
 
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ser2440;n10955978 said:
  • GS Hate cards - MO:
Caretaker, Ozzrel
  • GS Hate cards - NG:
Yennefer: Necromancer, Assire, Vicovaro Medic, Auckes
  • GS Hate cards - SK:
Coral, Donar an Hindar
  • GS Hate cards - Neutral:
Necromancy, Artefact compression, Mandrake, Muzzle, G: Igni, Scorch (if you can replay it via Yen: Enchantress, Eithne, Villentretenmerth, Schirru, etc)

Hah. I wish it was that simple. Except with your suggestion they still utterly destroy weather decks, don't they? Something better would be if they didn't reset to base strength every 2 turns

A few more hate cards:

MO - Miruna, Morvudd, Ice Troll (under biting frost), Drowner (not very reliable but can move Longships), Monster Nest since it can spawn Drowner, Cyclops, Parasite, Striga (lol), Nithral, Caranthir (move the Longship and keep its health lower than any Greatswords on the row), Imlerith, Imlerith: Sabbath if they're not running Mandrake

Neutral - Vaedamakar

NR - Vernon Roche, Sabrina Glevessig, Vandergrift's Blade, Seltkirk, Dethmold

ST - Elven Blade, Ida, Iorveth, Cleaver combo, buffed Swordmasters, Schirru

Making GS reset once every three turns means weather decks have more room to deal with them. Right now, you have to do 6 damage to an 8-strength GS over two turns to kill it (weather provides the other 2). With one reset / three turns, 4 points are enough, which opens up significantly more counters.

GenLiu;n10956020 said:
GS can crush in some games but unlike what you said, it's very inconsistent. How many times do you end up on turn 3 with Corsair(s) in hand and no target to pull off the graveyard for example.

Probably never or you are busted anyway, since you must've used Longships in rounds 1/2 and they're out of Mandrake range; meanwhile opponents with graveyard hate will be taking your Greatswords, not ships.
 
time_drainer;n10956053 said:
About once every 20 match? At least that's my experience playing against them. With Captains and Spearmaiden, it's very rare that I don't see all 3 ships on board during first round. I see Corsair's often discarded with Udalryk, but that's not because he doesn't have a target, but because they just don't need yet another ship.

Sure there are a couple decks that naturally count it (control decks mostly). But majority of the decks are disfavored unless they tech heavily against it. That's the indication of an OP deck in my opinion. Of course it would be even worse, if no counters would exist at all.

Brouver spy abuse decks were OP before the patch. Henselt was OP. Now they both get nerfed and we'll have to wait and see where they end up. Still Greatswords had a better win rate than those pre-nerf OP decks. If that's not being OP, nothing is.

Although there's still a chance that they not end up being the top deck of the patch, if they force everyone and their mother to tech against them like crazy. But I don't think that's gonna be a healthy meta either.

Much more like once every 4/5 games at least from my experience, There is a lot of things that can brick in this deck (Captains, Corsairs, Res units, Skjall...) and I know that I tend to be really unlucky by nature but once every 2O games seems like your opponent's should play the lottery.

To be fair I have no problem against this deck, no matter what deck I'm throwing at it so I just don't see it being OP at all.
And yes, of course I lose games against it but it's not like the doom of my existence like Dwarf back to the midwinter meta. The deck is strong but not to the point of nerfing it imo.

Also, most of the time you don't even have to tech against it because there is so many tech cards that disable at least part of this deck's strategy, your deck probably have some of those cards in the first place.
 
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