Donar's ability needs to go!

[Laveley]

Donar's ability needs to go!

This guy ability of discarding a card from opponent deck is not just rng driven; its rng driven and can single-handedly win a match....

I dont have a problem with Regis, because its a gold restricted tech card. But donar its just stupid... cards that can interact with opponent decks are extremely powerful. Giving a card that ability and making it RNG its just... stupid, sorry didnt found any better word to describe that.

 

[kaalev]

Once on round 3 Donar got my last C.Harpy, which was my last bronze unit whereas I still had first light in hand. That lost me the game as my Unseen Elder had nothing left to consume, not to mention me having a dead card in hand too. We don't need such RNG.

Why not make Donar move a selected bronze/silver unit from enemy graveyard to yours? That would be far better. For example that would allow QG archetype a bit of a breathing room when put against MO/NG deck.

 

[Laveley]

Once on round 3 Donar got my last C.Harpy, which was my last bronze unit whereas I still had first light in hand. That lost me the game as my Unseen Elder had nothing left to consume, not to mention me having a dead card in hand too. We don't need such RNG. Why not make Donar move a selected bronze/silver unit from enemy graveyard to yours? That would be far better. For example that would allow QG archetype a bit of a breathing room when put against MO/NG deck.

To be frank, all the specific locking units should be reworked IMO. Let cleaver be the one unit lock.

That being said, i dont know to what rework donar, what i do know is that he cant continue the way he is now! Your example is just one of many that this card can simply win matches out of pure rng.

 

[KThomas14]

I agree that Donar needs to be reworked; however, I think it's because he is the weakest of the silver unit locks. Occasionally he can get something good; most of the time he'll grab something useless (like a weather card) and provide deck thinning. Losing a single game because of one card is not a problem. You'll lose far more games due to a bad draw, but that's just the nature of the game. If you are losing consistently to a particular card and there are no good answers to it, then there could be a problem with a card being OP.

There's plenty of ways he could be improved, though. For example, he could lock, draw and discard a card. He could lock and damage, or he could lock and heal a different unit.

Kaalev, your idea of moving a unit from the opponent's graveyard to yours is a good idea that would have utility against most decks (excluding Spella'tael), but it does not synergize with a locking unit. When something needs to be locked, it needs to be locked now, and it is unlikely there will be anything worth reviving when you need to lock a unit. Thus, in most cases Donar would still have by far the weakest secondary ability of all the lock units. A new unit with this ability would be good, though. Or perhaps Donar could lock and revive a bronze unit from either graveyard? The devs do have plenty of options here.

 

[Laveley]

I think it's because he is the weakest of the silver unit locks.

Only stat wise. Because, frankly, right now i would pick him over any other lock unit just for the "free win" he will give me now and than with that stab on the dark. Even if he gives me a free win on, say 1 out of 100 games, its already worth it.

Losing a single game because of one card is not a problem. You'll lose far more games due to a bad draw, but that's just the nature of the game.

I totally disagree. Bad draws are something innate to every card game and even so, you can somewhat improve your draws giving your deck more consistency. If you are constantly loosing to bad draws, than probably your deck lacks consistency. If your playing with a deck that lacks consistency, than thats your fault and you deserve to have bad draws and loose for it.

Now, loosing to one card effect that is totally rng driven and you cant do shitt about, just basically pray that it doesnt hit the right card, its just plain bs and shouldnt exist. Neither players have a slight indirect influence on the outcome of that card effect, your opponent just plays it and it can casually pick the card that decides the match and thats it.

that would have utility against most decks (excluding Spella'tael)

It would be good against spell taels since you can deny some high value targets for eithné. Not that i like that suggestion though, just saying.

 

[vikaroot]

I agree the card needs some kind of rework. However, I played the card myself and 9/10 times the card is not that good in comparison to other faction's lock unit. So the direction is something that less rng and more of a reliable card.

 

[KThomas14]

...

Donar is actually the second best stat wise (and the best in round 3 due to veteran). This is actually the main reason I still use him instead of swapping him out for another D-shackles.

I've changed my mind on Donar being the worst lock unit; I do think Donar is better than Ciaran due to synergy. Skellige has a lot of units that need to be kept free from locking. The main reason to lock Scoia'tael units is to remove resiliency, which unlocking doesn't do. I would thus rank the locking units from worst to best as Ciaran, Donar, Margarita, Fiend, and Auckes. I think CDPR would tend to rank them the pretty much th same way due to the power they've assigned to each of these units. For clarity, here's a brief description of each card with their strength in parenthesis.

Ciaran (8) locks and moves a unit, Donar (6,7,8) locks and moves a random bronze card from your opponents deck to your graveyard, Margarita (4) resets and locks, Fiend (5) locks and damages an enemy by half, and Auckes (4) can lock 2 units, damaging each enemy by 1.

Fiend and Auckes are consistently very good in situations where you need to lock units, and Margarita can be very good against certain decks (Axemen, Dwarves) and not really needed against others. I don't really know what you can say about Donar. He consistently gives you a small chance of stealing something your opponent actually could have used, which once in a blue moon could be something you could also use? I suppose you could try to build a milling deck around him. You could play Donar round 1, and decoy him to steal 2 cards. Revive him in rounds 2 and 3 with Sigrdrifa and Restore to steal 2 more cards. Throw in Avallac'h for 2 more cards and you could force your opponent through 19 cards. If they pulled 5 from their deck, you could then use Renew on Avallac'h in round 3 to draw 2, while your opponent could only draw 1 assuming they have 25 cards in deck. This might actually work somewhat consistently against Monsters and Nilfgaard spy decks given how many cards they already pull. I might have to give this a try in a Queensguard deck to see if it is feasible.

I brought up the point about card draws causing more losses not because I think they will cause a large number of losses, but because I think that randomness would cause you to lose more games than Donar's randomness. You mentioned Donar might cause Skellige to win 1 out of 100 matches (and I realize you probably made that number up). I would probably estimate that a bad draw causes me to lose 5 out of 100 matches (I like running Axeman, with damaging units instead of weather spam, which while very powerful, requires a lot of support to be effective). Against an equally skilled and equipped opponent, I would say those numbers are pretty small.

What I think we can agree on is that no one who has posted in this thread particularly likes how this card works. It looks like those who use him think he's too weak due to the randomness, and those who face him think he's too strong due to the randomness. When nobody likes how a card works for different reasons, that's a pretty good sign that the card needs to be redone.

 

[Laveley]

. He consistently gives you a small chance of stealing something your opponent actually could have used, which once in a blue moon could be something you could also use?

Which once on a blue moon can grant you a win out of pure rng. And thats the problem i'm pointing here.

Maybe you didnt ever saw a game-winning donar pull so you dont quite understand the gravity of the problem here. Donar can win single-handle against various decks that rely on bronze cards as win conditions. Some examples; DBP on Spell Tael, Siege supports on NR, Pirate captain or QG's on SK and VVanguards against Mul ST.

This are just some generic examples, but there are a lot more of ingame situations where your opponent relies on that final bronze unit draw and you just deny it by pure RNG with donar, like the example kaalev gave on this very thread.

Even if it is a rare occasion, it shouldnt happen. Ever.

You may say "but high vampire has the same ability". Yes, it has. But vampire is a gold tech card that you are putting on your deck with the specific purpose of screwing those strategies while weakening yourself against anything else. Thats not the case with donar; you are using him because of the lock. The free win that he will give you once in a while is just a bonus.

I brought up the point about card draws causing more losses not because I think they will cause a large number of losses, but because I think that randomness would cause you to lose more games than Donar's randomness. You mentioned Donar might cause Skellige to win 1 out of 100 matches (and I realize you probably made that number up). I would probably estimate that a bad draw causes me to lose 5 out of 100 matches (I like running Axeman, with damaging units instead of weather spam, which while very powerful, requires a lot of support to be effective). Against an equally skilled and equipped opponent, I would say those numbers are pretty small.

I understand that, but what i'm saying is that even if you loose more matches due to bad draw RNG, that is not a problem because A) you have somewhat a little control over draw rng and B) draw rng is something innate to every card game and so its a "non-problem".

This is a classic problem of "good rng vs bad rng".

There is no justification to exist a card that can win games out of pure rng that none of the players have control over it, even if it happens just quite rarely.

 

[4RM3D]

Donar's RNG is unhealthy and I have been wondering about it. What if it works like Sweers? Except that it only moves one unit to the graveyard. The fun thing about this change is that it also works on your own units when you (un)lock them. This gives it extra synergy with priestesses.

 

[WingedEspeon]

As someone who has been playing a lot of skeliga lately and is running donar, I agree. I have pulled off stupid stuff like discarding dol bathana protectors and shield maidens to res getting 4 shield maidens off of a priestess, and I have also discarded bronze cards my opponent didn't need and just thinned their deck for them. I don't think the card is OP, but we don't need these kind of high variance cards in the game.

From experience I can tell you it is a lot higher than 1 in 100 chance to pull something stupid. Skeliga never wants more than 1 shield maiden in their had at once, and will often look to have a hand without shield maiden in their opening hand, leaving hem very vulnerable to donar. If nothing also, with 15 bronzes and 3 of them being screwing your opponent over with donar, that is about 20% chance (not perfect as mulligans exist etc, but an approximation)

On the subject of Higher vampire, that card is a little less RNG based because you at least get a varity of options. You also only get offered units, making it more reliable that you can do what you want to with it, as well as the fact that that is his main utility, not a random extra bonus.

 

[nhk3]

Completely agree with OP. This type of mechanics should be avoided at all cost, especially if the card which provides it can be replayed. Putting useless cards in opponent deck is one thing, but discarding a random card is just horrible, especially since bronzes have increased in power and in R3 the right card can make a big difference. I'd argue that even Regis: Higher Vampire needs to be reworked as well.

 

[The_Odinson]

Should I always just concede?

Literally every time I get matched against Skellige I can't bet 100% of the time that good old Donar an Hindar is going to pull a Reaver Hunter out of my deck. Doesn't matter how many other options are there, it ways happens. And then, you just can't ever win if that's part of your win condition. There is no reason for this card to no only pull the card out of my deck but also out of my Graveyard. No other card in the game does this. There are cards that can attack the deck or the graveyard but not both. Throw in the fact that its the highest base power Locking silver and you have some insane issues with this one card. I just can't get past how stupid this cards makes so many games. There is nothing fun about it for the opposing player. It generally doesn't actually lead to you ever rezzing or using the card you steal either, it simply sees play to completely screw the opponent, and it has no play around like many other strong cards. Why does this card still do this?

 

[StrykerxS77x]

That card is annoying. But I would suggest finding another main deck other than Reavers. People tend to know how to counter Reavers so I find them to not be terribly consistent.

 

[The_def_star]

There is nothing wrong with Donar. The card he pulls out of the graveyard is all random. I use him as a lock/unlock card along with my Warships because pulling the card you want from an opponents graveyard is all RNG. If all you have in there are Reavers that is your fault for setting that up with out proper execution. When using my Queensguard and I'm up against NG I make sure I don't set him up to steal them. You have to play your cards properly to avoid grave robbing.

 

[panerola]

There is nothing wrong with Donar. The card he pulls out of the graveyard is all random. I use him as a lock/unlock card along with my Warships because pulling the card you want from an opponents graveyard is all RNG

It pulls the card of the DECK, not the graveyard. As Regis the Higher Vampire consume from the opponent DECK. Donar an Hindar is random, Regis chose from three cards. Just be careful, or do not rely too much on a tactics, always have a backup.

 

[The_def_star]

It pulls the card of the DECK, not the graveyard. As Regis the Higher Vampire consume from the opponent DECK. Donar an Hindar is random, Regis chose from three cards. Just be careful, or do not rely too much on a tactics, always have a backup.

My mistake, I was confusing his ability with Birna Bran. That makes it even more random to be pulling Reavers.

 

[tortugueta]

If your whole strategy to win is based in one combo, to the point that having that combo broken leaves you without any hope of victory, I would suggest adding some backup to your deck. Every now and then I come across somebody who forfeits in round 1 after I destroy what they apparently were going to do. Blows my mind every time.

 

[fartingunicorn]

Having Shani, Operator, Neneke is crucial if you want to rely on Reaver hunters as your win condition. Those cards tend to let you play around your mistakes and opponent counters. Also, a lot of Henselt - Reaver hunters deck doesn't even use Henselt on Reaver hunters anymore.

 

[devivre]

Yes, Donar in general is an issue. There's a thread just about that in this forum. I still hope that CDPR will eventually change it. This type of randomness doesn't really fit to a card like that and it is not good for the game.

But yes, having a backup plan is probably a smart idea.

 

[SarahGabriella]

Always concede if youre about to lose, saves a lot of time one can spend in another match.