As people have pointed out when you put all of your eggs in one basket then it's logical that a counter card like Sweers will ruin your day. It's the risk you take for only having one win condition.
I agree, but I don't think the idea of having only one condition should be punishable by one card that doesn't require any setup. Especially one that's specific to only 1 faction. If there was a card that acted like a 'Sweers effect Multiplier' that would be more predictable and counterable. Nekker Consume relies on a specific card for their power, whereas a deck like Nilfgaard Spies relies on a specific card for their engine for their power. If a faction had a card with the ability "Banish all disloyal units from both decks" it would gain a lot more unpopularity despite it only heavily affecting Nilfgaard.
Yykkla;n9840181 said:
Honestly there is always going to a card or two that is amazing vs. certain decks. Scorch for instance is extremely good vs. any deck that relies on a lot of buffed units. I am playing a deck like that right now where if my opponent has scorch and maybe one debuff he can swing a round very quickly. My deck doesn't rely on just one strategy like yours does either. Now that I think about it using sweers on one of my cards would be pretty devastating but it hasn't even happened yet because Sweers isn't even used that often. That's kind of the problem with this thread. Sweers isn't OP in the least. It's only good a small portion of the time so I just don't see your side of the argument. If Sweers wasn't countering your deck then you never would have made this thread. That really hurts your argument.
I really don't see anything wrong with a niche silver card destroying a deck that only relies on one strategy. Especially a deck like yours that doesn't have a whole lot of counters.
Last edited:
StrykerxS77x;n9844731 said:
Yes, he isn't OP in the slightest, he's only crushing against the Nekker Warrior + Nekker combination specifically, which is my argument. I definitely agree that I would not have made this thread if it wasn't affecting my deck.
I do have to disagree though about the counters. I feel there's plenty of counters, it's just that opponents play them too late - eg, trying to shut down the Nekker train later rather than earlier.
If you play Hearthstone, the way I envision the Nekker Consume playstyle is like Jade Druid, and Sweers is like a class-specific card that removes all Jade Golem-related cards from your deck.
To me the game is less about strategy than archetypes - maybe that is why we disagree. I prefer to see the meta shift around archetypes, and not the other way around. Therefore, design should be appropriated around these archetypes, and not archetypes around design. Maybe some find that boring, but I personally prefer this method of balancing.
Yykkla;n9845021 said:
A non OP card that isn't used very often and is a terrific counter to a deck that has few counters. Again, not seeing the problem there, and it's still not a good idea to only have one win condition.
Someone has to have MULTIPLE counters to stop that deck as you know very well that there are many ways to pull and copy Nekkers. Once they are copied there is no way to really stop them that I can think of other than Sweers. So if a deck doesn't have those counters or doesn't have them in the first round there is nothing they can do about that insane tempo and carry over of the Nekkers.
Nerf Sweers please
Seriously guys Sweers ability needs nerfing. Consume decks stand no chance. That is not how a balanced game should be. I understand that some decks will have advantage/disadvantage against others, but this goes beyond a little handicap. One silver card destroying every single copy of an enemy? It even targets revealed cards, making reveal+ sweers the ultimate cheat. Forgive me people but this is bs, there is no counter to this with consume deck, unless you are very very lucky or the sweers user is a novice. So my suggestion is NERF HIS ABILITY. Either give him a 2-4 turns timer before his ability activates or make him destroy a certain number of copies instead of all. I m really tired of all those Nilf noobs relying on this ugly cheat.
Seriously guys Sweers ability needs nerfing. Consume decks stand no chance. That is not how a balanced game should be. I understand that some decks will have advantage/disadvantage against others, but this goes beyond a little handicap. One silver card destroying every single copy of an enemy? It even targets revealed cards, making reveal+ sweers the ultimate cheat. Forgive me people but this is bs, there is no counter to this with consume deck, unless you are very very lucky or the sweers user is a novice. So my suggestion is NERF HIS ABILITY. Either give him a 2-4 turns timer before his ability activates or make him destroy a certain number of copies instead of all. I m really tired of all those Nilf noobs relying on this ugly cheat.
I agree but I think he should be gold instead. Also reeks havoc on henslet, dwarves, reveal etc...
Paris155 thread merged
Ironic, Consume is normally at the top of the food chain. But that one thing that keeps the archetype in check needs to be nerfed so that Consume can reign supreme? Let's not.
Also, Sweers can be countered in a Consume deck. Simply don't be greedy. Keep one Nekker Warrior in your hand and use Brewess: Ritual to resurrect your Nekkers. Sweers is not an auto-loss when you know how to play around him. Now, RNGstone or Decoy is a different matter, but that's a rare exception.
Now, now, we've been over this. In no universe is Sweers is gold worthy. Instead, try to find a way to tweak him. For example, by limiting the number of copies to 3, if you must.
Ironic, Consume is normally at the top of the food chain. But that one thing that keeps the archetype in check needs to be nerfed so that Consume can reign supreme? Let's not.
Also, Sweers can be countered in a Consume deck. Simply don't be greedy. Keep one Nekker Warrior in your hand and use Brewess: Ritual to resurrect your Nekkers. Sweers is not an auto-loss when you know how to play around him. Now, RNGstone or Decoy is a different matter, but that's a rare exception.
Wonderboy8700;n10232822 said:
Now, now, we've been over this. In no universe is Sweers is gold worthy. Instead, try to find a way to tweak him. For example, by limiting the number of copies to 3, if you must.
4RM3D;n10232852 said:
Consume at the top of the food chain? What a joke. Everyone and their mothers is playing nilf, dwarves . Consume has many flaws nowadays. Keeping one nekker warrior in hand till the end just makes the whole strategy useless. Either you ll run out of copies fast, the remaining copies will have very low power, or simply you will not be in a situation with all 3 warriors readily available oh and the sweers user can always use decoy to destroy the rest of the nekkers or whichever card s copies he fancies. Brewess: Ritual is a completely useless gold i still regret crafting it. Resurrects 2 nekkers at base 4 power each.... And? most of the time we ll be close to end game not enough time to boost one or 2 more copies while having lost all the op ones. Plus Brewess: Ritual is way too situational to be useful all-around. It is a waste of gold slot. I insist Sweers can not be countered. Every other card in the whole game can be countered one way or another by every faction, Sweers against monster consume uncounterable, i believe limiting his ability a bit is completely fair. Otherwise go ahead, make cards like Succubus work on deploy turn, it will still be less OP than current Sweers
4RM3D, I agree there need to be ways to stop consume deck (compression, mandrake, vandergrift's blade, plus I already put up a thread about more doomed cards to stop revival and slylizard.) My point is (and has always been) that the effect is overpowered relative to every other silver in the game. Moreover, nothing ruins the fun of the game faster then watching your whole strategy evaporate in the first round while the enemy uses a draw deck and you no longer have enough cards to match much less win. In any event I decided to stop playing gwent because of the changes since midwinter (create and silver spy had me close, but cutting season rewards while adding points to reach top ranks sealed it for me.) I will check the message boards from time to time but that is it.
Last edited:
Paris155;n10232902 said:
Consume is the second or third top deck in the format, and it usually hovers around there. All this, despite Sweers existing for a rather long time.
Sweers can be played around. Nekker players do it all the time, and still beat the decks he appears in. You can insist that it's impossible all you want, but you're simply incorrect. Practice against it. Get a friend and drill it. Sweers has never been a problem and still isn't. He hoses one particular archetype when it's played very lazily.
You just dismissed the Brewess as a counter, despite her literally being a counter play that would let you get nekkers back on the board and re-warrior them. She's 'way too situational'. As opposed to Sweers, the definition of a situational card that most NG decks would rather not run in place of a more broadly useful silver?
Wonderboy8700;n10232922 said:
Demonstrably untrue. There are tons of obscenely powerful silvers. Sweers' effect is unique, not overpowered. There are multiple decks in the game that get Sweersed and literally couldn't care less (I've been in this situation myself, and that was when he hit two cards). Not to mention the times when he hits 1 card. Most of the time he's a bit of an annoyance, and that's it. Some silvers in this game form the backbone of decks' power plays (crone trilogy, ST rez combo, Sigrdrifa, Stennis and Nenneke, etc.). If you take Sweers, that's a slot you could have filled with something better.
Last edited:
iamthedave. Any good card (literally any good card) can be made meaningless by circumstance. Ciri nova can be igni or scorch killed. Igni can be 5 power if no row has 25 or more. Scorch can kill your own cards, etc... Sweers can be useless. For example if you run a shupe deck you only have a single copy of every bronze. That said, his effect is unique in the game. This is a fact. No other card in the deck allows opponents to take a card from your deck and place it in the graveyard. You are correct that some silvers may guarantee more points, but this does not make them better. You could argue that original geralt at 15 is better than triss butterfly which only guarantees 8. But given 4 units of the same power (and that they are the lowest units) you get 12 points on turn 1 and are up to 16 by the end of turn 2. Opportunity is the value, and sweers has the opportunity to destroy hands. If you use a henselt deck and wench approach that is 3 cards sent to graveyard. Nekkers sends more, dwarves send less (but brick more.) Anyway, this conversation is only valid until the developers give the players the option to exclude factions from opponent search. At that point NG will be boycotted until they fix sweers.
Last edited:
Fix the nekkers, not Sweers. I have no ideas how we can win a nekker consume deck without Sweers. Before winter patch, we can banish the nekker with mardrome & Peter so we have more solutions. Now the only answer to nekkers is Sweers & the silver alchemy card (forgot the name). Even you run a double scorch with Eithne plus Schirru, nekkers still win. I really hate the nekkers and always reach my climax when I pull out my Sweers.
pthieu1986. I already listed several cards that can destroy nekkers (btw I agree that we need more destroy and doom cards) but even without destroying them, resetting the cards that consume them is a good plan. I have defeated nekkers many times with good ST deck and with henslet deck. You can also play nekkers properly and force them to use most or all of the nekkers in the first 2 rounds thus giving you a win in round 3. It is a good deck, not an instant win (especially when you need nekker warriors in your hand to make it work. Plenty of people don't get one early enough to make a difference.)
Wonderboy8700;n10244142 said:
You're massively missing the point. Actually, Ciri: Nova can never be made meaningless. She's a 25 point play that will win the game if not answered in most circumstances. Sweers is a 9 pt play that people yawn at and play a bronze with a bigger body. His only value is the tech.
Gigni forces people to play around him 24/7 just out of fear of his existence. Gigni can shut down any round in any deck in the game, even dorfs if they get too cocky with skirmishers (as those are usually the biggest bodies in the deck) or accidentally buff the wrong units, as I've seen happen a time or two. Scorch is the same. These are cards so powerful that they effect games of Gwent where no deck is using them, out of fear that they might be used. Comparing them to Sweers shows how little you understand the cards in question. One deck in the game - ONE - has to play around Sweers or risk being defeated. Every other deck views him as an annoyance and goes on as normal. Every single deck in this game with the exception of spellatael maybe has to play around Gigni and scorch. And one of the strengths of swarm decks and why they're champed is that they're practically scorch proof (though most swarm decks come with a buff engine that can easily set them up to be nuked anyway).
You actually torpedo your own argument with the example you chose to support it.
Triss is better than vanilla Geralt (though Triss is not used much these days as far as I know) because you wouldn't use her unless the deck benefitted from her ability. She has an ongoing presence on the board that creates massive value over a fairly short period of time. Sweers literally creates no value. He creates 'phantom value' by preventing the opponent from playing cards or at least making it harder for them to do so in the case of Skellige. Sweers has no ongoing board presence and has debatable long-term effect, since engine cards - his usual targets - don't normally need to be played in doubles, and when they do there's usually resurrection protection or redundancy built in (Henselt sheds a tear if you Sweers siege support or the other guys, but it can get by with just one on the board and three of the other, or however many you fail to murder).
And lets not forget that Henselt decks often run Nenneke specifically as a soft counter to removal. If you Sweers and he Nenneke's he's literally just countered your Sweers play AND got an extra point of power out of the deal, while 'reloading' Henselt, who has one of the most powerful leader abilities in the entire game.
You really are giving Sweers more power than he warrants. There is a reason he barely appears in NG lists; most NG decks have better things to do with their silver slots than play a narrow tech card whose effect on the board is minimal. Remember: Nekkers are one of the top three decks, maybe top five. Sweers still isn't a commonly played card. According to GwentDB - don't know how accurate it is so forgive me if it's rubbish - the card has been played in 15% of NG decks in the last 30 days.
Do you really think you're seeing something that all those NG players are missing? If Sweers is so overwhelmingly powerful as you seem to think, why is he played in just over 1 in 10 decks?
Last edited:
@Wonderboy8700: Reseting the nekkers is not an optimal solution because the opponent can make at least 9 copies of nekkers. You simple cannot put all the reseting cards or whatsoever to your deck to merely counter consume decks (your deck will become very weak against other leaders). I agree that consume deck is still counterable but the winrate against it is not favorable if you're not playing Sweers. To add more, comparing between any ST deck and monster consume deck, I can confidently claim that the ST decks are the underdog.