She doesn't die instantly to frost anyway. For that it requires a rider and if Iris has 1 armor then there will be 2 riders so she'll die instantly anyway.
Iris is a very strong card, I am not going to argue about that. However, your proposed change only looks at one scenario where she is used in, while ignoring all the other cases where she is useful or maybe even more powerful. That's why this suggestion is not a good idea. Besides, this also makes Wild Hunt Warrior unable to snipe her, which is a step too far.
PS. Changed the title to better reflect the content.
PS. Changed the title to better reflect the content.
Pruny;n9903571 said:
I am getting a Natalis déjà vu here. You are not looking at the bigger picture. Instead, you zoom in on one specific case, which you find problematic, while ignoring all other situations (within the current state of a faction). Iris is the win condition of the Wild Hunt archetype. It's not a good design to solely rely on one card to win, but the Wild Hunt have little other tools which can make a big impact. After the Wild Hunt gets some improvements, then it's time to talk about Iris. And not just for Monsters, but also for archetypes like Spies, who laugh at the one extra armor.
Hmmm. Deploy: Gain 5 Armor; remove all armor after 1 turn?
This actually wouldn't save her from 3 DMG Frost, but would possibly deny other instakill situations, namely Nilfgaard. That being said, I'm not sure I'm a fan of this suggestion myself. Just thinking out loud.
This actually wouldn't save her from 3 DMG Frost, but would possibly deny other instakill situations, namely Nilfgaard. That being said, I'm not sure I'm a fan of this suggestion myself. Just thinking out loud.
It's currently one of the only high tempo plays the WH has, while also being easily countered. The move requires at least 2-3 bronze cards (Frost, Hound, Rider), 1-2 silvers (Iris and possibly Dorregary to spawn Savage Bear), and a gold to do it twice (Caretaker). With all that it's perfect acceptable to be able to pull off a 25-50 point gain, especially when many decks (handbuff, spelletael, veteran) can easily pull such a tempo swing off with FAR less work. At the same time it's ridiculously easy to counter by either removing the frost with a clear weather or nullifying the rider with a lock, artifact compression, or simply destroying it. WH hasn't been truly competitive since the weather deck and now you want to take away the one combo that they have left to win matches?
Wrong, i have played WH since open beta started without iris or raiders and i got in top100 . i run wiley to counter her but cant have 3grifins in deck, because they have no sinergy, curses...4RM3D;n9903711 said:
:eredinfacepalm:
PS. Spies can kill her instantly with 2enforcers, so make it 2 armor then
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I don't think Iris needs one armor, but she should not generate so many points. Iris is usually worth between 21-25 points (21 if you had to use a 4 damage to kill her, e.g. 2x Enforcers; 25 if you placed her in a weathered & otherwise empty row). That's tremendous for a silver card. Compare (all these assume maximum value):
Jotunn: 15 power
Ida into Overdose: 15 power
Buffed Hattori resurrecting Toruviel: 20 power (this assumes Hattori was buffed to at least 6 strength).
Muzzle: 16 power (potentially more depending on how much it impacts the opponent's strategy).
Imlerith: 17 power
Caranthir: 8 power + 2 / turn + movement
Isengrim into Toruviel: 21 power
Ifrit: 13 power
Myrgtabrakke: 12 power
Stennis bringing out Trollolol: 19 power (14 immediate, 5 armor from Stennis's effect afterwards)
Notice one thing about this: Iris generates more points than all of these cards. Her point output is almost double that of Myrgtabrakke's for example. Further some of these cards are actually golds. A max value Iris easily punches above the weight of a comparable silver card.
There's only one redeeming factor for Iris and that is that she is not easy to use. The main weakness is on the turn she's played - the opponent can just pass immediately to force you to use one more card to pop Iris. This is mitigated by the fact there are combos that kill Iris on the same turn. Another important weakness is that she can potentially be weak if you can't trigger her / don't have 5 units on the board. However the first scenario happens only if one's deck malfunctions; it's rare that Iris will not die if one's deck is built to support her. The second scenario is more common but still not that big. Triggering Iris on 4 units is ~17 power, which is still easily competitive with the above cards. Finally Iris can backfire if the opponent has a lock and one does not have an unlock, so she is in some sense medium-risk high-reward, but the magnitude of the reward is big, and opponent cannot unlock her if she dies instantly anyway.
tl; dr: I think Iris needs a nerf to her points output, or at least some kind of "this unit is invulnerable until the end of the opponent's next turn" mechanic. I prefer the former, since the latter adds variance (do you have a counter? If so you win, if not I win). Something like boost up to five allies by four points. Iris would still be worth slightly more than all these other cards, but wouldn't be worth much more than them, and she would still be balanced by the fact she's harder to use.
Jotunn: 15 power
Ida into Overdose: 15 power
Buffed Hattori resurrecting Toruviel: 20 power (this assumes Hattori was buffed to at least 6 strength).
Muzzle: 16 power (potentially more depending on how much it impacts the opponent's strategy).
Imlerith: 17 power
Caranthir: 8 power + 2 / turn + movement
Isengrim into Toruviel: 21 power
Ifrit: 13 power
Myrgtabrakke: 12 power
Stennis bringing out Trollolol: 19 power (14 immediate, 5 armor from Stennis's effect afterwards)
Notice one thing about this: Iris generates more points than all of these cards. Her point output is almost double that of Myrgtabrakke's for example. Further some of these cards are actually golds. A max value Iris easily punches above the weight of a comparable silver card.
There's only one redeeming factor for Iris and that is that she is not easy to use. The main weakness is on the turn she's played - the opponent can just pass immediately to force you to use one more card to pop Iris. This is mitigated by the fact there are combos that kill Iris on the same turn. Another important weakness is that she can potentially be weak if you can't trigger her / don't have 5 units on the board. However the first scenario happens only if one's deck malfunctions; it's rare that Iris will not die if one's deck is built to support her. The second scenario is more common but still not that big. Triggering Iris on 4 units is ~17 power, which is still easily competitive with the above cards. Finally Iris can backfire if the opponent has a lock and one does not have an unlock, so she is in some sense medium-risk high-reward, but the magnitude of the reward is big, and opponent cannot unlock her if she dies instantly anyway.
tl; dr: I think Iris needs a nerf to her points output, or at least some kind of "this unit is invulnerable until the end of the opponent's next turn" mechanic. I prefer the former, since the latter adds variance (do you have a counter? If so you win, if not I win). Something like boost up to five allies by four points. Iris would still be worth slightly more than all these other cards, but wouldn't be worth much more than them, and she would still be balanced by the fact she's harder to use.
Jeydra
Iris is strong, yes. Regardless, your comparison is flawed. Besides that you're comparing cards in a vacuum, you are only looking at the raw strength of the cards. You've already said so yourself when comparing Muzzle. The initial power swing is 16 strength max, but it can inflict much greater damage beyond that. Also, Iris requires setup, cards like Caranthir do not. Furthermore, Ifrit and Myrgtabrakke are inherently weak, but can become stronger when used with other cards. For example, using Myr to align targets for Scorch. Similarly, Germain is only a 12 strength silver, but works great with cards like Commander's Horn, Siege Support and Yennefer.
If CDPR wants to balance Iris, while keeping the strength boost intact, then an alternative is to use the same mechanic as Succubus: a loyal unit with a 2 turn timer, during which she can either be locked or killed to prevent her ability from triggering. This also prevents the (unfair) synergy with the Spy deck. Though, I am not a fan of this idea because it feels less unique.
Iris is strong, yes. Regardless, your comparison is flawed. Besides that you're comparing cards in a vacuum, you are only looking at the raw strength of the cards. You've already said so yourself when comparing Muzzle. The initial power swing is 16 strength max, but it can inflict much greater damage beyond that. Also, Iris requires setup, cards like Caranthir do not. Furthermore, Ifrit and Myrgtabrakke are inherently weak, but can become stronger when used with other cards. For example, using Myr to align targets for Scorch. Similarly, Germain is only a 12 strength silver, but works great with cards like Commander's Horn, Siege Support and Yennefer.
If CDPR wants to balance Iris, while keeping the strength boost intact, then an alternative is to use the same mechanic as Succubus: a loyal unit with a 2 turn timer, during which she can either be locked or killed to prevent her ability from triggering. This also prevents the (unfair) synergy with the Spy deck. Though, I am not a fan of this idea because it feels less unique.
4RM3D I think one important factor is missing in what you wrote. The main question is "at what point does Iris's value become too strong given her power output" and I'd say 25 points is above that threshold. Look at some of your examples. Germain gives 12 strength, but sets up Commander's Horn, true - but Commander's Horn is only 20 power. Yennefer triggering only on Germain's five bodies is 17 power. Siege Support triggering on Germain gives the two cards a combined strength of 23 power. Iris's 25 points is still worth more.
Not a fan of the Succubus mechanic either since that would probably kill Iris as an option. Almost every card runs some removal. Succubus already sees little play for that reason.
Not a fan of the Succubus mechanic either since that would probably kill Iris as an option. Almost every card runs some removal. Succubus already sees little play for that reason.
Jeydra;n9910131 said:
It's still an interesting comparison of raw power. Both cards require 5 units (although CH needs them on one row). CH is 5 less strength, but can be used instantly and doesn't require a removal of sorts. Iris giving 5 extra strength for the trouble seems fair. Although, neutral cards tend to be a tad weaker than their faction counterparts.