Viper School Witchers - any counterplay?

[Sailears]

Viper School Witchers - any counterplay?

These things are worse than Assassins - pretty much instakill on any target they like.

Especially now that Quen has been deleted and taking into account Ointment which is capable of ressing them... there is very little way to protect anything from them aside from handbuffing up to silly numbers, but that's not effective in practice.

I've been looking at all the cards and can't seem to find a suitable solution here - is there any way to protect a unit from this ridiculous powercrept damage?

 

[Jesting-Jack]

Armored and immune units come to mind.

To be honest, I don't think their damage is all that bad because it depends on the number of alchemy cards one has in their deck. Too many alchemy cards and not enough units will weaken a deck, so it all balances out I think.

 

[Sailears]

Hmm, well Armour would be nice if it was more widely available and could be buffed in the hand. Same with Immune.

For example looking at Dol Blathanna Marksmen - there is no way to safeguard them given they need to be on the board to do any work (previously at least Quen could buy you a turn to do something on the board).

 

[DRK3]

Yeah, i think we can agree by now this bronze card is OP. Im using it on a 8 Alchemy card deck, but since i only have 1 ointment yet, the deck itself isn't as strong as some i've seen, that use 3x Viper Witcher, 3X Vicovaro Novice, 3x Ointment and 3x Mahakam Ale.

Nilfgaard seems to be the faction with the most powerful archetypes and cheap strategies with this update - spy remains very strong, reveal got stronger, then there's these new alchemy archetypes, strengthened NG knight on hand bullshit, and even some swarm and "reverse" (they use Vicovaro Medics and Slave drivers to play your own cards against you) strategies.

 

[4RM3D]

Nilfgaard seems to be the faction with the most powerful archetypes and cheap strategies with this update - spy remains very strong, reveal got stronger, then there's these new alchemy archetypes, strengthened NG knight on hand bullshit, and even some swarm and "reverse" (they use Vicovaro Medics and Slave drivers to play your own cards against you) strategies.

NG Alchemy is a solid deck; not too strong, just well-rounded. The NG (knight) handbuff is broken though. It's an all-in one-trick-pony that can be countered very easily, but if you lack any counters, than it's game over.

 

[OG.laloquaint]

Alchemy Nilfgaard is ridiculously strong in every round. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE this deck but I didn't expect it to be this good. I think that we can all agree that the most problematic thing about the deck are the Viper Wichers. IMO, there's two things that CDPR could do if it becomes too problematic:

1. Give the Viper Witchers the Doomed tag so that they can't be revived by Ointment in later rounds.
2. Nerf Ointment so that it can only revive units with 4 or lower strength.

Like yeah sure, you'll still get a lot of value from them but now you'd have to be more careful with how/when you use them. I can't think of any way of dealing with them except armor and spells.

 

[nemirni]

Viper alchemy deck is strong but it is also a reactive deck that needs strong oppo units to reach max effectivness. Luckily for it most of the meta right now is all about huge units but against some kind of swarm with a unit no higher than 7~8 points it becomes much weaker. Furthermore its finisher is a 2 turns setup that creates a lovely 25 point value unit. 25 being that magical igniting number as long as you play last.

So it also comes down to CA and coinflip basically.
Regarding that this silver spy spamming is getting ridiculous. Spy,spy, summon,summon back and than runes. Who doesnt get the spy from runes basically loses. I am really starting to think that the spy card itself should be removed. Does more harm than good.

 

[KingPegasus]

Yeah, weak unit is the best counter to it. Also the final play with trial of grass can be a bit vulnerable to scorch or igni. If you only have say 5 strengths units, the best the Witcher can do is 10. With strong units from opponents, or anyone that runs engine cards, this deck wrecks them.

 

[Sailears]

Hmm, maybe I just need to put aside movement ST for the time being as both alchemy NG and spy NG pretty much hard counter it by decimating key units such as Dol Blathanna Marksmen.

Either that or I should stick to casual.

 

[DRK3]

I think the meta is already adapting to these power creep units, and is going for numbers (of units) instead, but the wrong way. I've seen some crazy ressurect chains, that although that mechanic is associated with SK, and previously, NR, now its nerfed there but insane in NG and SC.

In NG, its the ointment + novices, or spy + vicovaro medics for 4/5 units played in 1 turn.

In Scoiatel, Its Brouver Hoog to Hattori to Barclay Els to Dwarven Agitator to whatever dwarf. And if that wasnt enough, they got another silver dwarf medic to ressurect another Dwarven Agitator into another dwarf, its crazy!

 

[GenLiu]

I think Witcher of the viper is just a poorly designed card. It kinda reminds me of Enforcers, the effect is just too strong (BS level for Vipers) and the only thing that keep them from breaking the game is that they're in an archetype that's currently weak.
I forsee a nerf on the card, as soon as the archetype will do some serious things (don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the deck is doing poorly right now, I'm saying that it's strong because of Vipers and as soon as some good card will appear to support it, it will become nonsense and be nerfed by CDPR).

 

[iamthedave]

Viper school witcher isn't the problem. Not even in the slightest. For him to be good you need to dedicate a minimum of a third of a 30 card deck to alchemy cards. The only thing making this deck dangerous right now is ointment being useable on novices; it RELIES on repeated alchemist use to thin out those alchemy cards, and Vesemir to thin a silver. Going over 10 in the starting deck is asking for trouble, 11 might be workable, 12 is almost certainly risking unworkable hands. Stick the doomed tag on the novice and the deck is suddenly left with about 6 alchemy cards it can't thin during a game and has to play from hand if it draws into them.

Besides, is 15-16 points even that good for a bronze in the current meta, with ST summon chains and the like and swarm play being the standard?

 

[Sigurd_3]

Viper school witcher isn't the problem. Not even in the slightest. For him to be good you need to dedicate a minimum of a third of a 30 card deck to alchemy cards. The only thing making this deck dangerous right now is ointment being useable on novices; it RELIES on repeated alchemist use to thin out those alchemy cards, and Vesemir to thin a silver. Going over 10 in the starting deck is asking for trouble, 11 might be workable, 12 is almost certainly risking unworkable hands. Stick the doomed tag on the novice and the deck is suddenly left with about 6 alchemy cards it can't thin during a game and has to play from hand if it draws into them.

Besides, is 15-16 points even that good for a bronze in the current meta, with ST summon chains and the like and swarm play being the standard?

15-16 points is really good in today's meta since you can ruin your enemy's strategy (just as it is good in pretty much every phase of the meta with strong control options), and shut them down. I have barely seen any swarm post-mid winter patch. Foltest and the blue reaver scouts, and occasionally NG slave swarm, and sometimes Nekker swarm. Other than Foltest swarm with the usual bronze units, I hardly ever see any swarm.

 

[Nentii]

I play NG reveal and this deck screws me every time. I was 0/5 against it by the end of the season. In casual after this last season ended i ran into it literally 3 times in a row and lost every single time. they just rev viper witcher over and over every time i put anything on the board. they have large removal cards whether you put all your units on one row or spread them out, and i really just don't have any way to stop them from doing whatever they want. Its pretty frustrating.

 

[G4merY]

Yes, Eithné. Or a swarm deck. Or any deck without high-value and engine cards, since high-value, specially engines, are primary targets for the Vipers. Hope this helps.

 

[Bondonkadonk]

I honestly think the main reason vipers have been so prominent is because of dwarves, bears and spies during the midwinter patch. They're not a counter to dwarves by any means, but thanks to the huge units that dwarves (and bears) put out, having vipers hit for 9-11 every single time you played them meant you were almost always getting full value with them. Vipers don't work well against decks that play lowers units or decks that can get a lot of units onto the board quickly. I personally often play a deck that has it's highest bronze unit at 3str and i almost always win vs vipers because they have very little to counter/remove and so just rely on the their ales. So as we watch the meta shift over the coming months, I reckon vipers will fall out of favour if gwent stops point slapping. It may be that they need some tweaking in the future, it's hard to tell for sure, might just be that they get lowered in str by a couple of points or gained a doomed tag, but we'll see. I think dooming them is over nerfing though, they're only as useful as what your opponent plays, and you have to build your ENTIRE deck around them to ensure you have enough alchemy cards within, dooming them so they're only a 3 use bronze (maybe 4 or 5 with decoy/emhyr) just seems a little harsh considering how much of your deck you have to sacrifice for them. A NG alchemy deck without vipers, is literally just ale and novices, which isn't much power at all.

 

[Void_Singer]

swarm made an interesting counter to this deck. unfortunately swam just got murdered by the doomed changes.

 

[Sailears]

I'm curious what the effect of removal of buffing from ointment will have on NG alchemy. Still a lot of one shots to deal with but at least ointment can only be used to res or be a dead card.

Also thank goodness enforcers have been curbstomped so don't have to deal with that nonsense from spy NG anymore.

 

[DRK3]

Sorry to deviate a bit from topic, but what's the most anyone seen Viper Witchers hit for?

The most i used on my decks is 9, and i've seen plenty use 10-11, but the other day (before patch), i saw one hitting me for 15! And i dont even know if that was the value, that was just the highest unit i had on board! The moment most of your deck is composed of alchemy cards, starts getting a bit silly no?

 

[Void_Singer]

I'm curious what the effect of removal of buffing from ointment will have on NG alchemy. Still a lot of one shots to deal with but at least ointment can only be used to res or be a dead card.

Also thank goodness enforcers have been curbstomped so don't have to deal with that nonsense from spy NG anymore.

not much really... I've seen it used in that deck exactly 2 times out of all my matchups against it... both were bad RNG draws into it first round... I on the other hand was regularly using it for the random buff in R3 as cover from scorch and now I'm kinda screwed