Elven Nihilism

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Ciri's story could continue. I mean apparently she is happy in the world she ended up in (the arthuric one), but she can still travel worlds so could still have adventures.

But i'd kind of prefer it if he didn't write any books. Because if he did, I don't think he and the people responsible for the witcher games are going to go to too much trouble to get their lore right.

Personally, I'd rather think of the games as a 'sequel' in story to the books, rather than if the books continued, the games would be an alternate cannon to the books.
 
vermeer said:
I meant Oberon, the king of fairies...

About the mirror...
I thought Ciri appeared in the lake, lost in her endless travels, and Nimue (who already saw her in her youth) was waiting for her, during all her life in fact. Nimue opened the portal (which also toke Ciri through time, since the Gate was open in that period, I suppose) to Strygga castle. I can't remember any reference to the mirror.

Yeah well but that's what got me wondering, why did Ciri pop up there twice. So I read the bit about the mirror, and I thought it might have something to do with it.

I skipped a few chapters and translated this:

"Tonight," Nimue said, wrapping herself in fur, "it will be a good night. I can feel it. "
Condwiramurs did not comment, though she had already heard this kind of insurance often. Because it was not their first evening on the terrace, in front of a glowing sunset reflected on the lake, and behind them the magic mirror and the magic tapestry.
..... (skipped a bit)
"Today it is a good night. The last before the summer solstice. The moon is waning. The sun emerges from the third to the fourth house, the sign of the goat-fish. The best time for divination ... the best time ... Concentrate, Condwiramurs. "
As many times before, Condwiramurs focused obedient and gradually shifted into a state of autotrance.
"Find them," said Nimue. "She's there somewhere between the stars, between the moonlight. Between places. It is there. Alone. She is waiting for help. Help her Condwiramurs. "

So from this I think the Carpet and the Mirror have some sort of influence on it, together with Condwiramurs trance.

vermeer said:
Ciri's story could continue. I mean apparently she is happy in the world she ended up in (the arthuric one), but she can still travel worlds so could still have adventures.

But i'd kind of prefer it if he didn't write any books. Because if he did, I don't think he and the people responsible for the witcher games are going to go to too much trouble to get their lore right.

Personally, I'd rather think of the games as a 'sequel' in story to the books, rather than if the books continued, the games would be an alternate cannon to the books.

Well if you like the books as much as I do you really don't care if a next book makes the game un-canon or alternate-canon :)
 
vermeer said:
Yes, and yes. Cirilla's name comes from the elven word Zireael, which means Swallow.
Well, that confirms that Ciri and not any of her future descendants will be the savior of the Aen Seidhe, according to the Ithlinne's Prophecy. That means that the end of Geralt's world is nigh.

COME AT ME, TW3.
 
I just read through this incredibly illuminating thread, and here's a summary of what everyone has been able to reasonably conclude thus far, either from direct literary evidence or suggestive storytelling.

1. Long ago, the race of elves suffered in a war against humans in their original world (#77), so with the help of unicorns, they gained control of Ard Gaeth for inter-dimensional travel and decided to sail upon white ships and move to what is now Geralt's world/dimension. At the time this new world only had Gnomes and Dwarves.

2. Sometime after moving to Geralt's world, a faction, possibly a majority, of the elves decided to move on to a "more interesting" place. This faction became the Aen Elle, whereas the elves that stayed in Geralt's world became known as the Aen Seidhe. (#106)

3. The two factions remained in contact and rose to prominence in their respective worlds, and all was going well for these elves for untold ages until the Conjunction of the Spheres 1500 years ago, a collision of many dimensions that also somehow broke Ard Gaeth (#106). This makes sense as the wiki states that the Conjunction "trapped many unnatural creatures in this dimension, including ghouls, graveirs and vampires." It also states that humans entered the world of the Aen Seidhe via the Conjunction. It's possible that the Conjunction caused humans to enter the world of the Aen Elle as well, and that the fate of human vs. elves unraveled in opposite directions in each world.

4. Pretty bummed about losing control of Ard Gaeth, a group of especially powerful Aen Elle mages created the Hen Inchaer, the Elder Gene (#106), in an attempt to engineer elves who can eventually recover full control of the Ard Gaeth. This gene had a peculiar feature of having an activator half and a latent half (#106). The activator half propagates only through male lineages, the latent half only through female lineages, and the gene only becomes evident when both halves are present (#106). This process is complicated by the fact that while one can verily receive at least half of the gene (according to one's gender), one cannot reliably receive both halves at once, as the gene split after Lara and didn't reunite until Calanthe. Sile suggests that this complicated process implies the possibility that Lara may not have been the only remaining individual with the gene, as halves of the gene may be present and undetectable in others, only to be reassembled in the future (Alvin).

5. This engineering project originated by few powerful Aen Elle, but the gene was planted among the Aen Seidhe due to the latter world's relatively brisk time (#83). This was possible after the Conjunction because there were still a few select individuals (Eredin, Avallac'h, Auberon) who could travel between the worlds of the elves, although limited by arcane devices like Tor Zireael in Geralt's world and the Spiral in the Aen Elle's world (#92). I assume that the Spiral is simply Tor Zireael's counterpart in the world of the Aen Elle, but we know for a fact that inside Tor Zireael are portals to other worlds, one of them leading to the world of the Aen Elle. It is interesting to note that Ciri first traveled to the world of the Aen Elle via Tor Zireael.

6. Some time after this engineering project, the Aen Seidhe Ithlinne Aegli aep Aevenien made some prophecies, all of which has come true. Her most famous one regarding the end of the world states that the blood of Aen Seidhe will soak the earth, and soon after there will be armed conflict, "Wolf's Blizzard" (having to do with Geralt, maybe?), and an ice age. Humans will die and the remaining Aen Seidhe will be "saved by an offspring of the Elder Blood, known also as the Swallow." Ciri's name is Swallow (#108). This prophecy also states that the son of Ciri will rule half the world, and her grandson will rule the whole world.

7. Emhyr wants to incestuously father a son with Ciri because he wants his offspring to rule the world. The Aen Elle wants Ciri because she's their ticket to regaining control of Ard Gaeth. Geralt and Yennefer are the only people Ciri really cares about and so they're caught up in this mess. After Ciri arrived and subsequently became imprisoned in the world of the Aen Elle (during which Eredin killed Auberon), the unicorns helped Ciri realize her innate ability to freely travel between worlds, after which she travels to the world of King Arthur, which is not in the Spiral so the Aen Elle cannot pursue her further (#92).

8. Both Emhyr and the Aen Elle now need Geralt and Yennefer to lure her back, and as of this point, Emhyr has the upperhand because, as stated, he's a cunning motherfucker.

Let me know if I've missed anything!
 
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junki said:
Let me know if I've missed anything!

Just a few notes:

-Is not clear if Eredin killed Auberon or not.

-Emhyr willingly abandoned the idea of marrying Ciri and let her go. At the time of both games he was not searching for her any longer.

-The Spiral doesn't seem to be a construct like Tor Lara/Tor Zireael. Is more like a network of worlds that are somehow connected. Eredin can travel through the worlds of the Spiral and not beyond.

Also, I advice against taking Ithlinne's prophecy too seriously. Prophecies are tricky. For instance, it's true that Witcher's world is entering a glaciation, but Nimue said it would take like 3000 more years to reach an actual catastrophic situation.
 
vermeer said:
-Is not clear if Eredin killed Auberon or not.
Hey! Thanks for coming back to the thread. Are you sure about that? The wiki states pretty clearly that he did and how he did it.

"He died before he was able to impregnate Ciri. He was killed, possibly unwittingly though likely not, from an overdose of an aphrodisiac or performance enhancer supplied by Eredin Bréacc Glas who viewed himself as a better potential ruler."
 
Junki, thanks for the summary, nicely written :)

One thing I'm not sure about is this text on the wiki:

"Despite the fact that Ciri was his daughter and only child, he wanted to marry and have a child with her, because as Ithline's prophecy said, Ciri's child would rule half the workd, and the son of her son would rule the whole world."

I'm not sure where that came from, because I do not remember that from the books. I've read through the books almost twice (reading the last one now), and I think it is a little more vague then the Wiki states. I did read somewhere that Emhyr believes Ciri's offspring will rule the world, not Ciri's son or grandson.
Also you forgot one more "enemy" of Ciri, because the Lodge of sorceresses also wants Ciri. They want her to marry some prince of Kovir or something like that, and use her as the leader of their little club. But Ciri got away from them and they might try to get her back.
 
A nice summary, but you mixed one major thing up.

The unicorns make it clear to Ciri that the Aen Elle brutally conquered their world, slaughtering and enslaving it's human populace.

Also, the speculations about a pre-Conjunction war between Humans and Elves are completely unfounded.

The Elves are just bloody conquerors
 
Hope the mods don't mind the necro but I thought this would be the best place to ask, are the Elven Elders in Dol Blathanna and elsewhere actually just waiting for humanity to wipe itself out and move on or have they given up hope with the loss of their pre eminence in the world. It's not been so long since humanity first appeared after the conjunction of the million spheres (at least to the elves) so I was wondering if some of the old ones are taking a really long term view, rather than being the the hopeless idlers that Iorveth speaks of.
 
Hi, just finished reading this interesting post. Learned a low of new things. As much as I can gather this is what happened.

1. Unicorns find the Aen Elle in threat of extinction(The cause of which is unknown) and take them to their new world.

2.While where the Aen Seidhe come from is debatable however with the similarity in names and their connection through the Elder gene my hypothesis is that the Aen Seidhe splintered off and came through the gate (Which they had control of during that time) before spending any significant time on the new world.

3.The Aen Elle start a systematic extermination of humanity (Which makes people think that they had been in a war with humans on their other world) which horrifies the Unicorns who take the Gate away from them so that they cant invade other worlds.

4. They start the Elder gene program and for some reason use Lara Dorren-

*On a side note the various members on this discussion have said that Lara Dorren must have been Aen Seidhe to fall in love with a human but on the Witcher wiki it places Lara with the Aen Elle)*

-from another world to be the one to carry the gene. Maybe the Unicorns magically restricted the Aen Elle from traveling between the worlds and so to circumspect this they decided to mate one of their own with one of the Aen Seidhe? Just speculation.

The rest as they say is history. Is there anything I missed?

Oh and

Hope the mods don't mind the necro but I thought this would be the best place to ask, are the Elven Elders in Dol Blathanna and elsewhere actually just waiting for humanity to wipe itself out and move on or have they given up hope with the loss of their pre eminence in the world. It's not been so long since humanity first appeared after the conjunction of the million spheres (at least to the elves) so I was wondering if some of the old ones are taking a really long term view, rather than being the the hopeless idlers that Iorveth speaks of.

Its unknown. There is precious little information on the Elvin leaders in Dol Blathanna much less their intentions.
 
ok, first of all a lot of people mix the stories in the books and those in the games. The author of the books sees the games as fanfic so I am going to draw my conclusions from the books:
1. the first to arrive on the continent were the gnomes followed closely by the dwarves
2. then came the Aen Sidhe and become dominant on the continent.
3. After about 500 years the humans came and started creating their own cities. A big note is that just with the colonisation of America by the time the colonists arrived the native population was already in decline and near extinction. Similar was with elves.
4. Dwarves and gnomes tried to make peace with both elves and humans and integrated pretty well in the dominant society.
5. Elves cannot breed after a certain age and they are not very prone to reproducing very much so their genetic diversity reduced severely in just a few generations. More than that the population become like living dead. They could not reproduce because of age and only waited for death. We know because similar thing is happening to Aen Elle . They are dying because they are not found of reproducing.
6. Elves are arrogant and proud and consider themselves the rightful owners of the continent although they arrived just as the humans. Also they disconsider and hate on humans. You may think is because humans have forced them to reservations but it is a general feeling as we see in the Aen Elle. Also for a long time most elves are to proud to try to integrate in human society or try to renounce their hunter/gatherer ways and start farming. We see that the elves of the Blue Mountains prefere to steal food instead of asking for help.
7.There are exceptions though proven by the fact that many hybrids exist. most are not even quadroons (1/4 elf) but they still exist. This proves that the two races could co-exists. Another proof is that the dwarves and gnomes manage to coexist pretty well with humans.
8. as the witcher says "the elves are already dead, they just do not know it yet"
9. elves have a reverence to nature to the point they will kill countless sentient beings for the sake of a rose bush.
10. Although the humans are blamed for many atrocities as a group the only true genocide was against the dragons. It was the only sentient being in the continent oppressed without much reason.
11. About leaving to another world, the Aen Elle claim they will allow the Aen Sidhe to repatriate to another dimension. Based on their history this was a lie. The history as revealed by Nimue though seems to say that the Aen Sidhe had left for another dimension but I think this was the work of Ciri.
12. I do not remember the Vran being mentioned in the books so I cannot tell you about it.
13. There is still hope for the elves. At the end of the last novels some elves returning from the war accept food handed by humans returning from the same war but fought on different sides. Also three travelers: a human an elf and another sentient being that is not mentioned as race start a journey together after eating a roasted giant rat. But even with that hope most will die.
14.All the Aen Elle are evil. They consider that the end justifies the means. that is why the unicorns denied them the ability to use the power to travel trough time and space and this is why there is hate between the two races. The Aen Elle though have great magical power so apparently can fight or even subdue the unicorns if the numbers are in their favor (about 3-4 elves to 1 unicorn)
15. The acts against non-humans started by humans are motivated by two factors: a)the cruel acts of some elves - for instance some scoiatel kill wounded people in a hospital motivating that this is war while a half elf reminds them that this is a hospital.b) fear that the other non-humans will join them and attack
16. I feel that the elves are the main antagonists of the series at least in the books. Their pride blinds them.
 
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