I hate this rediculous mod limit (CDPR please fix this)

[JayJay83]

I hate this rediculous mod limit (CDPR please fix this)

Honestly its ruins the mod experience of this game.
I can't see why CDPR cant fix this, especially when they said they would support modding.

I barely have any mods as it is (Maybe around 20 or so) however If i insall one more then that's it - no more game loading

I have used mod merger but its next to useless - so many newer texture mods dont merge at all and its seems to only pick some and discard others

Sory for the rant but its just frustrating as the modding scene could have been so good it it wasn't for one such stupid flaw that I cant see how someone at CDPR cant fix to improve the modding scene again

 

[minicrom]

I admit I would like to understand why the mod limit works this way...

 

[AgentChaos]

This is the main reason why I'm reluctant to come back to this game after my SSD was wiped. I just cba to spend days download all the mods again to merge and test them until it won't give infinite loading screen. I redownloaded FO4 2 weeks ago and currently having 180+ mods installed with no issues whatsoever.

 

[Guest 3841499]

CDPR is not going to fix it. It could be due to how the engine works. Look at how the Content folder is structured - 0-12 folders, 13 in total, very close to the total number of un-merged mods we get to have - 12. It could be a coincidence or some entirely other reason for allowing only 12 mods, but the bottom line is that it will not be fixed.

 

[SigilFey]

This is not an official response, but based on the growth of modding overall (courtesy of games like Bethesda titles, Gary's Mod, Minecraft, etc.), mod limits are imposed for a number of reasons. Most notably, there is a finite amount of memory (RAM) and other system resources that any engine is capable of utilizing. This is not governed by the amount of RAM on your system, but by the amount of RAM that the engine itself is coded to use. As players install mods, it pushes this limit closer and closer to the point that it may run out of RAM. On powerful PCs, this may not be an issue, as the resources available my be able to "get around" the limit by simply processing calls "later". Textures may fail to load or "pop in" after the rest of the area has loaded, the game may hitch or stutter before recovering, or, in worst-case scenarios, the game may unceremoniously crash to the Desktop.

Trouble arises when the system in question does not have enough performance overhead "get around" the issue. Plus, since many mods are not aware of or intentionally push the boundaries of what an engine can reasonably do, it's very possible that lower end systems may be put into a situation from which they cannot recover. Especially where consoles are concerned, players do not have access to operating systems themselves, and if a game ever puts the system into a state from which it cannot recover, it could potentially brick the system. Obviously, companies cannot knowingly allow players to potentially do this.

The problem gets even more complicated when we consider the vast array of mod combinations that are possible. Sure, this mod that increases textures won't cause any issues alone. And this mod that increases draw distances won't cause any issues alone. But, if I install both at the same time -- kerblammo -- major issues. That's a simplistic way of looking at it, but it gets the idea across.

Increasing the complexity even more is the fact that many mod authors "go places" that the actual developers never intended or expected. They do things in ways that the devs could not have foreseen. Or they intentionally dig into parts of the engine they're specifically not supposed to in order to get their mod working. When that occurs...quite frankly...no one knows what it can potentially do. Again, not so much of an issue on PC with more hardware resources available and where a player can access their OS to recover if something goes wrong.

So, steps are taken to try to mitigate the potential problems that can arise, and ensure that most mod combinations will work fine (or at least not wind up creating a system issue). Granted, I believe the limits may be a little restrictive (across the board with all games) for the moment, but it does keep things working.

Also, because of modding's present popularity, there's also the issue of bandwidth that needs to be be taken into consideration. Console markets, especially, are already quite loaded with data and traffic on a regular basis. To be able to allow user-generated content...to be uploaded / downloaded...by anyone...anywhere...anytime...without restrictions...with libraries of mods and the traffic surrounding them growing exponentially over time... This requires an infrastructure to be created that doesn't exist yet. Hence, another reason to limit mods that can be installed at one time: it limits the bandwidth / traffic overall.

As modding continues to become less of a 3rd-party "hack" and more established as an "industry standard", things will become built around it. Already, more and more developers are building modding into their engines from the beginning. The industry needs time to develop systems to support it.

 

[rfuzzo]

Also, do you notice how CDPR (C=3, D=4, P=16, R=,18) stands for 41?? (strange that those numbers are ordered from lowest to highest!)
Now to the number Monarch just gave us, add the number of the official DLC (=16). Now we have 13+16 = 29. And AGAIN the difference is 12!! (This IS the mod limit!) Coincidence? I surely think not! For those of us who know the significance of the number 12, it comes as no surprise that 12 is just 4 (3 acts plus the prologue!!) times 3 (=Witcher 3!)!?

 

[SigilFey]

Also, do you notice how CDPR (C=3, D=4, P=16, R=,18) stands for 41?? (strange that those numbers are ordered from lowest to highest!)
Now to the number Monarch just gave us, add the number of the official DLC (=16). Now we have 13+16 = 29. And AGAIN the difference is 12!! (This IS the mod limit!) Coincidence? I surely think not! For those of us who know the significance of the number 12, it comes as no surprise that 12 is just 4 (3 acts plus the prologue!!) times 3 (=Witcher 3!)!?

This proves it beyond any reasonable doubt: The Great Pumpkin is real.

 

[LukeSparow]

I understand the complaint but Mod Merger should work fine.
I am running around 70 mods without issue.

 

[traderain]

This is not an official response, but based on the growth of modding overall (courtesy of games like Bethesda titles, Gary's Mod, Minecraft, etc.), mod limits are imposed for a number of reasons. Most notably, there is a finite amount of memory (RAM) and other system resources that any engine is capable of utilizing. This is not governed by the amount of RAM on your system, but by the amount of RAM that the engine itself is coded to use. As players install mods, it pushes this limit closer and closer to the point that it may run out of RAM. On powerful PCs, this may not be an issue, as the resources available my be able to "get around" the limit by simply processing calls "later". Textures may fail to load or "pop in" after the rest of the area has loaded, the game may hitch or stutter before recovering, or, in worst-case scenarios, the game may unceremoniously crash to the Desktop.

Trouble arises when the system in question does not have enough performance overhead "get around" the issue. Plus, since many mods are not aware of or intentionally push the boundaries of what an engine can reasonably do, it's very possible that lower end systems may be put into a situation from which they cannot recover. Especially where consoles are concerned, players do not have access to operating systems themselves, and if a game ever puts the system into a state from which it cannot recover, it could potentially brick the system. Obviously, companies cannot knowingly allow players to potentially do this.

The problem gets even more complicated when we consider the vast array of mod combinations that are possible. Sure, this mod that increases textures won't cause any issues alone. And this mod that increases draw distances won't cause any issues alone. But, if I install both at the same time -- kerblammo -- major issues. That's a simplistic way of looking at it, but it gets the idea across.

Increasing the complexity even more is the fact that many mod authors "go places" that the actual developers never intended or expected. They do things in ways that the devs could not have foreseen. Or they intentionally dig into parts of the engine they're specifically not supposed to in order to get their mod working. When that occurs...quite frankly...no one knows what it can potentially do. Again, not so much of an issue on PC with more hardware resources available and where a player can access their OS to recover if something goes wrong.

So, steps are taken to try to mitigate the potential problems that can arise, and ensure that most mod combinations will work fine (or at least not wind up creating a system issue). Granted, I believe the limits may be a little restrictive (across the board with all games) for the moment, but it does keep things working.

Also, because of modding's present popularity, there's also the issue of bandwidth that needs to be be taken into consideration. Console markets, especially, are already quite loaded with data and traffic on a regular basis. To be able to allow user-generated content...to be uploaded / downloaded...by anyone...anywhere...anytime...without restrictions...with libraries of mods and the traffic surrounding them growing exponentially over time... This requires an infrastructure to be created that doesn't exist yet. Hence, another reason to limit mods that can be installed at one time: it limits the bandwidth / traffic overall.

As modding continues to become less of a 3rd-party "hack" and more established as an "industry standard", things will become built around it. Already, more and more developers are building modding into their engines from the beginning. The industry needs time to develop systems to support it.

That's either horrible design or the lack of programming knowledge.

 

[Guest 2364765]

That's either horrible design or the lack of programming knowledge.

 

[Valas991]

Increasing the complexity even more is the fact that many mod authors "go places" that the actual developers never intended or expected. They do things in ways that the devs could not have foreseen. Or they intentionally dig into parts of the engine they're specifically not supposed to in order to get their mod working.

Of course people will dig into places they weren't normally supposed to do. They have to if they want to mod a game they like. They have to, because the promised redkit was not delivered. (the reason does not matter)

 

[Marcin_89.683]

The answer is simple . They dont like people which have a better ideas how to improve/expand game...

 

[bulkane]

I understand the complaint but Mod Merger should work fine.
I am running around 70 mods without issue.

Same here.
The tool called Mod Merger is the best friend of people who wants to use large amount of the mods without any issue. It's really useful.

JayJay83 Stop complaining and show some respect to CDPR. Then do some research about the mod limit, conflicts & compatibility. You need to learn which mods to merge and which ones not.. (ie do not merge the lighting mods via mod merger, do not merge bundled texts via script merger...)

 

[Riven-Twain]

Moderator's reminder to all: Keep it civil, please. Yes, we know people are disappointed and annoyed by the limitations of modding in Witcher III. As far as we know, however, for technical reasons, this is the reality with which all must live, including the REDs. Regardless of personal frustrations, though, please, try to keep discussions respectful.

 

[SigilFey]

That's either horrible design or the lack of programming knowledge.

Of course people will dig into places they weren't normally supposed to do. They have to if they want to mod a game they like. They have to, because the promised redkit was not delivered. (the reason does not matter)

It is, often, terrible design and a complete lack of programming for the engine in question...

...on the mod author's part.

And I don't mean that to be in any way insulting, as I, myself, wound up breaking Morrowind repeatedly while I was modding back in the First Times. The problem is that there is only so much a mod author can know about the nuances / limitations of an engine through the modding tools themselves. The rest is normally discovered the hard way. And studios are not at liberty to disclose details about the source code, so it's up to mod authors to "feel out" the situation with an engine over time. This means that a lot of trial and error goes into the creation of any complex mod, and the results can often be bewildering to even very talented modders.

When it comes to an engine like the RED Engine in TW3, it's already pushing the envelope of what it can reasonably do. Not exactly a system that is cordial to modding as a whole. To be honest, I've been endlessly impressed with what people have pulled off -- a sign of the talent of the people involved. But that doesn't negate the fact that all engines have an upper limit, and all engines can be put into a situation from which they cannot recover. It's necessary (especially because of limited user access to a console's OS) that a game not be knowingly allowed to do this.

Eventually, a system will be worked out that allows for much more freeform modding.

The answer is simple . They dont like people which have a better ideas how to improve/expand game...

Absolutely untrue. If that were the case, then 0 hours would have been spent creating tools for modders. Instead, an entire suite of tools (however underwhelming their reception may have been) was released into the community for free, and exactly nothing has been done to squelch creativity on anyone's part. What point would there have been for any company to put the thousands of hours needed into these options if they were intending to try to prevent people from using it?

I'm willing to admit that I, personally, found the REDkit to be very clunky, and that's a large part of why I was not inspired to explore it. But looking at the small forest of mods that has grown up around it, it's impossible to make the argument that the tools were ineffective. Not as effective as other mod kits, perhaps, but it obviously didn't stop people from coming up with some wild stuff.

Besides, you don't wind up with a studio capable of creating The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt if they're focused on strangling the creativity of others. That's not in their blood.

 

[traderain]

So first of all:

Absolutely untrue. If that were the case, then 0 hours would have been spent creating tools for modders. Instead, an entire suite of tools (however underwhelming their reception may have been) was released into the community for free, and exactly nothing has been done to squelch creativity on anyone's part. What point would there have been for any company to put the thousands of hours needed into these options if they were intending to try to prevent people from using it?

wcc_lite wasn't really created for us. RedEngine uses wcc.exe to do some stuff, they just stripped some stuff and released it without proper documentation and testing.

It is, often, terrible design and a complete lack of programming for the engine in question...
...on the mod author's part.

They create tools for people to use. It's not black magic. Look at skyrim for example. They just need to properly design them.

When it comes to an engine like the RED Engine in TW3, it's already pushing the envelope of what it can reasonably do. Not exactly a system that is cordial to modding as a whole. To be honest, I've been endlessly impressed with what people have pulled off -- a sign of the talent of the people involved. But that doesn't negate the fact that all engines have an upper limit, and all engines can be put into a situation from which they cannot recover. It's necessary (especially because of limited user access to a console's OS) that a game not be knowingly allowed to do this.

The problem is not the lack of tools rather the laziness. they would just need to add (c++ like pseudocode):

try
{
   loadmod(*mod);
}
catch(WitcherModLoadException ex)
{
   printf("Failed to load mod. Reason: %s",ex.toString());
}

And everyone would be legit satisfied you would know why the mod limit thing happened correct it and play along. The problem was here that they probably weren't really designing it with the modding tools in mind or didn't have enough resources to do so what is perfectly fine.

 

[SigilFey]

wcc_lite wasn't really created for us. RedEngine uses wcc.exe to do some stuff, they just stripped some stuff and released it without proper documentation and testing.

They create tools for people to use. It's not black magic. Look at skyrim for example. They just need to properly design them.

The problem is not the lack of tools rather the laziness. they would just need to add (c++ like pseudocode):

That's still not the message intended. Any computer system made for modern hardware must have a finite "start" and "stop" condition. This necessitates a minimum and maximum limit to the operating environment. This is why even Gamebryo / Creation Engine can be an absolute nightmare to deal with -- even though it was specifically designed for modular editing from the beginning and is fairly easy to pick up and learn. This is why modders have been forced to create utilities like WryeBash, SKSE, and ENBSeries to hook the engine itself with shell programs in order to achieve a greater level of compatibility with functions the engine itself was never designed for.

The actual Gamebryo / Creation Engine is incredibly limited in what it can actually do on its own. It's basically the text-based system of Morrowind with animation packages and system "suspends" hamfisted into it in order to create things like spoken dialogue (which are simply individual audio files that play on quest flags), "cutscenes" (which are nothing more than quest scripts involving navmesh coordinates and forced idle animations), and a slew of bare-bones game mechanics (many of which cannot work as intended through the actual engine...like the infamous "pickpocket bug" and the even more infamous "ash pile bloat"). It's a system of give and take. Yes, Bethesda titles are infinitely more friendly for modding than TW3, and the toolset is utterly expansive by comparison...but Bethesda titles themselves offer little more than the ability to arrange animatronic mannequins on endless loops around a very static gameworld. The illusion it creates is fantastic, but it's still a series of very simple processes layered over one another to create a sense of "depth".

From what I've seen, RED Engine is a totally different beast. It's also nothing more than illusion (as are all games), but rather than worrying about being modular, TW3 carefully crafts a series of intricate mechanics to create single, set-piece instances. This is why TW3 cutscenes may contain such detailed and nuanced physical performances from the characters. There's no "modular" function being used...it's specifically crafted "scenes" that rely on specific, scripted code for that scene and that scene only. It will often never be used in any other part of the game. Such an approach does not lend itself well to being "tweaked".

Analogy:

TW3's approach and engine is like a film production. It requires a specific set to be built around a specific scene. Actors perform a specific series of lines, and the scene is shot using specific angles. The takes are then edited into a "final cut", and that's what we see in the game. If I reach into a scene and try to "pull the camera back", then the beautiful garden veranda reveals itself to be...nothing more than a facade of set pieces using forced perspective, plastic plants, and careful lighting on a sound stage. There is no veranda, and there is no garden. If I want to change the scene, I can't simply "move the camera"...I need to build a completely different set.

Whereas Skyrim / Fallout works more like an amusement park. There are a ton of animatronic puppets everywhere, and the park itself was built to be walked through, so it maintains its illusion from various perspectives. However, it all appears somewhat plastic. Mountains are a little too small...scenes are a little too stiff. But it's easy for me to redecorate the entire place for Halloween, or Christmas, or a birthday party (Happy Birthday, Riven-Twain!) All I need to do is pull the deer costume off of that robot, turn it around on its track, and replace it with a wolf costume, and viola! It will now move toward you instead of away, and it looks like a predator; it's now "scarier" and more "dangerous". It's literally trading quality for quantity and speed.

Two different approaches. One is friendly and works more like Playdough. One is like trying to alter a finished oil painting. One is more fun to play with...one creates a more honed, final result. One was built to me changed and molded...one was really not.

The problem was here that they probably weren't really designing it with the modding tools in mind or didn't have enough resources to do so what is perfectly fine.

And I think there may a lot of truth in this. Perhaps there was a plan, at one time, to make modular elements more prevalent in the engine. Perhaps the dev team imagined they could work the tools in retroactively. But perhaps, as development continued, and the devs realized they could pull off something amazing for the game...they set the idea of being modular aside to create a better TW3. (I don't know; I'm guessing. But based on the experience provided by vanilla TW3, I'd have to support that decision.)

 

[Guest 3841499]

Also, do you notice how CDPR (C=3, D=4, P=16, R=,18) stands for 41?? (strange that those numbers are ordered from lowest to highest!)
Now to the number Monarch just gave us, add the number of the official DLC (=16). Now we have 13+16 = 29. And AGAIN the difference is 12!! (This IS the mod limit!) Coincidence? I surely think not! For those of us who know the significance of the number 12, it comes as no surprise that 12 is just 4 (3 acts plus the prologue!!) times 3 (=Witcher 3!)!?

Why do you think they decided to divide their content into 13 main parts? Maybe it's easier for the engine to load several bundles that are necessary for whichever location instead of loading them all. I don't know the real reason, but I doubt there was no reason at all to divide main game content into 13 parts, some of which actually have identical files.

I bet it has something to do with per-bundle Async Loading Auto-Discard Cleanup combined with Auto Purge Dependency Cache Compression Budget algorithm written in C+++ (noticed the third +) !!!!!!!!11111one...

There has to be a reason.

SigilFey,

What you said made little sense to me because someone could simply cook and pack a huge mod or simply merge existing ones. CDPR either did not expect modding to get so big for W3 or as I said, there is something about loading/offloading specific bundles based on need. Otherwise they would have a single ContentAIO folder. I think DLC's are divided for the same reason. If only one is activated, no need to load the others until they become activated.

 

[erxv]

Maybe it's easier for the engine to load several bundles that are necessary for whichever location instead of loading them all.

well of course its for separate levels... the bundle files inside the content folders are literally named like: "world_kaer_morhen_runtime.bundle" etc..

 

[ScoutBr0]

SigilFey,

What you said made little sense to me because someone could simply cook and pack a huge mod or simply merge existing ones. CDPR either did not expect modding to get so big for W3 or as I said, there is something about loading/offloading specific bundles based on need. Otherwise they would have a single ContentAIO folder. I think DLC's are divided for the same reason. If only one is activated, no need to load the others until they become activated.

Of course they would opt for a method that only load what they wanted. It removes strain from the engine and memory by not having to constantly fetch everything from one file. Most of the files are divided between the areas they are used in the content bundles. Same for the dlc, there is no point to aggregate them to the main bundles because you would force everyone to download the dlc files on an update even if they don't own the game (otherwise they would have to have different updates for people that have and don't have the dlcs).