The game-breaking romance plot. I feel dirty now [Spoilers]

[Graelock]

The game-breaking romance plot. I feel dirty now [Spoilers]


Witcher 2
So, it's like this. I played Witcher 2 and I romanced Triss. I didn't even know if there would be a Witcher 3, let alone Yen making an appearance in the sequel. I knew nothing about the lore/ books etc. All I knew, is that Geralt lost his memories and therefore, doesn't recall anything about his former life. So, I made Triss Geralt's opportunity at a new life...a new him" After all, Triss helped him piece together his memories, working with him the whole step of the way....Yen was obviously out of his life...or so I had thought.

Witcher 3
Having remembered Witcher 2 and Triss, I couldn't wait to meet Triss again. I figured, "I don't care who they put as a new romance option, I'm totally staying Triss..." and I did so without regret...even though Triss is nothing like the old Triss in Witcher 2. The Triss in Witcher 2 was quite the vixen and she had an edge to her. The Witcher 3 Triss is borderline school girl innocent. Not sure what happened there, but whatever.
Later, I do some missions with Yen, and I start to really adore her quarks and love how she keeps Geralt in check. Clearly, they balance one another out. So, I figured, "Wow! I'm liking Yen and now I can see why Geralt did, too." I romanced her, figuring there would be a day I would have to let Triss know and/ or decide...such as would have been the case in a game like Mass Effect, where you are not locked into a decision and everything is much more rational. That day would never come.

The Finger
So what happens? If you romance Triss and Yen? Surprise! Wouldn't you know it? You're a whore!!! Congratulations in your future of becoming and old, lonely hermit! Here's a free voucher to the Novigrad brothel! Thanks for playing! Insert another token to start a new game!"

I was appalled that Geralt was automatically pulled into a quest of gullibility. "Alright man! Geralt gets a threesome? Rock on!!!" was not at all the tone I was going for. I had rather expected a, "Hey Triss, I'm sorry about what I said earlier. I do love you and all, it's just that some old feelings surfaced with Yen...I can understand if you want nothing to do with me going forward...I'm so sorry..." but alas! No such rationalization. You're automatically dirty scoundrel and Yen and Triss' tone with you is changed after that. Neither want nothing to do with you. It's contradiction, too. Yen already pointed out that she understood that you had lost your memories when you f'd her friend. Would Triss not then understand that Yen was his original love? And that something would likely re-spark?

 

[KillAWatt1705]

Agreed. The romance system is poorly designed and extremely shallow compared to previous games. I have two main gripes with how romance was executed:

1) The game forces you to love one person or the other, Geralt cannot love both. Even though this is entirely plausible and believable given his history (both canonical and from past games) with both women. I was eagerly imagining a confrontation scene where Geralt finally confesses his love for both women, and some sort of choice would have to be made with appropriate consequences. This would've been an excellent way to round off the trio's history from the games and cannon via the novels. But I was shocked to see CDPR take such a lazy approach to this, especially since romance had such a huge part to play in the last two games.

2) Aside from that though, the biggest problem is the 'layout' of the romance subplot. If a player follows the natural progression of the game, this always leads to meeting/completing Triss's Now or Never side quest well before even giving the player a chance to explore Yen's character and actually deciding who to romance.

This leads to quite the significant bias towards Triss very early in the game. At this stage Yen has little to no screen time to develop as a character, and the player has literally no one else to romance (not to mention that Triss is pretty much a useless character after the battle of Khaer Mohren. Even if you romanced her properly as I did, nothing about your relationship with Triss is referenced after that - Yen still feels like she has more precedence given her role in the main story. But that's another topic with lots of good threads for it already).

This bias later on shifts very significantly towards Yen when in Skellige, but at this stage its too late. The player is punished as a 'whore' for exploring what was at the time the only romantic path available to them if they later decide that Yen is their romance of choice. This doesn't represent how relationships work in real life let alone the back-and-forth Triss, Yen and Geralt have in the books. This aspect is poorly mirrored in TW3.

If the layout had been more fair to present both characters to the player equally (even a brief glance in this forum shows that Triss was severly under represented as a character). Then provide some form of choice between the two (which I was surprised not seeing given how TW has always been about choices) it would be structured far better.

The overall feeling I got from the romance system was that it was rushed and hastily done. There wasn't anywhere near as much depth as I would expect from CDPR games that I've grown to love.

Anyways, that's my two cents on the subject.

 

[nordelaire]

If the layout had been more fair to present both characters to the player equally, then provide some form of choice between the two (which I was also surprised not see given how TW has always been about choices) it would be structured far better.

The overall feeling I got from the romance system was that it was rushed and hastily done. There wasn't anywhere near as much depth as I would expect from a CDPR games that I've grown to love.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[Cipher-Six]

I feel like people use the term "game-breaking" without any real consideration for what it actually means. If this romance caused the game to crash to desktop, then it might be game-breaking. But a scenario in which you tell two different women you love them and are unsatisfied with the results, that is not game-breaking.

 

[kraidy]

How is this gamebreaking? That two timing two people and playing with their hearts did not give you a desired result? Really? You got what you deserved if you tried to two time Triss and Yen.

 

[sarkocreme]

It's certainly not game-breaking, but as pointed out by @Graelock and @KillAWatt1705 it was not handled very well.

 

[randyrhoads]

It's certainly sort of an oversight but nothing game breaking. It's really harsh to just cut it off with either one of them given that you (Geralt) clearly care deeply for both.

 

[kraidy]

It's certainly not game-breaking, but as pointed out by @Graelock and @KillAWatt1705 it was not handled very well.

I have no issues what so ever that Triss and Yen want nothing to do with him if he pulls this crap. Characters should not kiss the players ass at all and Geralt professing his love to them both and playing with their feelings deserves this. It's not like it comes out of nowhere, Geralt HAS to tell both of them he loves them. I just can't see how people thought this would work out fine if you tell them both this.

 

[KillAWatt1705]

Geralt professing his love to them both and playing with their feelings deserves this.

If you look at it with the perspective of Geralt claiming to love both characters as "playing with their feelings" then I wouldn't disagree with you.

But it's far, far more complicated than that. A big chunk of the romanticism in the books is dedicated to this trio and the fact that Geralt loves/loved both Yen and Triss throughout many stages in his life and the turmoil which followed.

Heck, its emphasized even more so in the Witcher 2. Even though Yen and Geralt's relationship is forged by fate via the Djinn in The Last Wish, I loved how the TW2 contrasted this with Gerlat and Triss also forging arguably one of the most powerful representations of love in Elven history - the Rose of Remembrance. Regardless of the fact that in the TW2 you know that Yen was your true love before The Hunt took her.

So given the game acknowledges all of this, Geralt clearly did and does have feelings for both characters. The Witcher 3 world state assumes Geralt gave Triss the Rose (it can be found in Triss's estate in Novigrad) so he has already expressed his love to Triss in the form of the Rose. Likewise, we also know through The Last Wish Geralt also professed his love to Yen in the form of his wish to the Djinn. Hence, he has professed strong, binding oaths of love to both women in the past (there are many more counts of this but I'm picking the significant ones for simplicity).

So tell me, and I'm curious of other peoples thoughts on this too, considering the significant history Geralt has with both these women, TW1+TW2 and books included, does the TW3 really need to be so shallow as to think he expressed his love to both women only because he wanted some hot-spanky-spanky time or to "play with the feelings" of those he cares deeply for? I'm of the strong opinion that the threesome was a really half-hearted, alien way to hastily conclude what was such a big part of those characters' makeup.

To clarify, I don't think the threesome scene was bad. I believe it would've been an excellent consequence after exploring both characters equally (see my previous post about the poor romantic structure and representation in the game) and a significant romantic ultimatum between Triss and Yen was already made at some point after. If the player then continues flirting or pursuing both women aggressively, then that threesome scene would fit perfectly.

Otherwise, the romantic subplot in the game as it is now is extremely disappointing to say the least.

 

[kraidy]

You're only looking at it from Geralts POV. Yen and Triss are not looking at it from the same POV as Geralt. Again I have no issue with the scene, the only issue I do have is how Triss's romance and lock in is handled. The quality difference between Triss and Yen is just glaring.

 

[Hazevamp]

So tell me, and I'm curious of other peoples thoughts on this too, considering the significant history Geralt has with both these women, TW1+TW2 and books included, does the TW3 really need to be so shallow as to think he expressed his love to both women only because he wanted some hot-spanky-spanky time or wanted to "play with the feelings" of sorceresses? I'm of the strong opinion that the threesome was a really lazy, alien way to hastily conclude what was such a big part of those characters' history.

To clarify, I don't think the threesome scene was bad. I believe its an excellent consequence after exploring both characters equally (see my previous post about the poor romantic structure and representation of the game), as well as a significant romantic choice between Triss and Yen was already made, yet the player continues flirting or pursuing both women aggressively. The threesome scene then fits the bill perfectly.

Otherwise, the romantic subplot in the game as it is now is extremely disappointing to say the least.

You bring up a very interesting point and I do believe there should have been some balance. Perhaps save the relationship stuff until later on in the game particulary since the player knows nothing about Yen. However, the scenes that lock you into a relationship are very clear. With Triss you tell her to stay and that you love her. With Yen you tell her that you still love her and thus want to be with her. How long are both women to wait until Geralt makes up his mind? How accepting and understanding should they be? If you tell Triss to stay then your mind should already be made up that she is the one for you, if not, if you're unsure, then let her go and move on. Keeping both women hanging on is just selfish.

So the threesome scene is both women acknowledging that Geralt is being selfish and they have taken it upon themselves to decide for him, he gets neither.

 

[nordelaire]

How long are both women to wait until Geralt makes up his mind? How accepting and understanding should they be?

Well they should be as accepting as Geralt was, in the books Yennefer spend years cheating on Geralt with another mage and when both men confront her to choose one of them she flee, wasn't that selfish ? Yet Geralt forgave her and come back to her because he love her.

As for Triss she manipulate geralt and use his amnesia to make him love her, wasn't that also selfish ?

The geralt of the books was in loe with yennefer, the amnesic Geralt was in love with triss, the TW3 Geralt is a combination of both, yet when Geralt is unable to choose between two girls he have known for decades because he care about them too much the game punish him by making him the bad guy of the story who end up alone and sad.

There should be at least one part of the game where Triss and Yenn present a ultimatum to geralt to choose one of them and there if Geralt tell them cleraly that he want to be with both at the same time therehe is being really selfish and the threesome scene will occur. Instead geralt can spend time in novigrad with triss to realize he love her and then some time in Skellige to realize that he still love her but if that the case he is condamned to be a whore.

 

[KillAWatt1705]

You bring up a very interesting point and I do believe there should have been some balance. Perhaps save the relationship stuff until later on in the game particulary since the player knows nothing about Yen. However, the scenes that lock you into a relationship are very clear. With Triss you tell her to stay and that you love her. With Yen you tell her that you still love her and thus want to be with her. How long are both women to wait until Geralt makes up his mind? How accepting and understanding should they be? If you tell Triss to stay then your mind should already be made up that she is the one for you, if not, if you're unsure, then let her go and move on. Keeping both women hanging on is just selfish.

I partly agree, and this brings me back to my first post. The threesome lock-in thing wouldn't be such a glaring issue IMHO had the player been given a balanced, fair representation of the options. As as you say, Yen is no where to be seen and the player knows almost nothing about Yen until way after Triss has had her way with you in the first half of the game.

So it just seems like the romantic design didn't leave much choice available unless you had prior knowledge of how the flow of the game would move.

As a small side note on something you mentioned, you can actually ask Triss to stay with you, but not initiate the scene in the light house or lock-in a romantic relationship (basically making it a friendly version of the "stay with me" option). It requires preparation beforehand though.

 

[kraidy]

I partly agree, and this brings me back to my first post. The threesome lock-in thing wouldn't be such a glaring issue IMHO had the player been given a balanced, fair representation of the options. As as you say, Yen is no where to be seen and the player knows almost nothing about Yen until way after Triss has had her way with you in the first half of the game.

So it just seems like the romantic design didn't leave much choice available unless you had prior knowledge of how the flow of the game would move.

As a small side note on something you mentioned, you can actually ask Triss to stay with you, but not initiate the scene in the light house or lock-in a romantic relationship (basically making it a friendly version of the "stay with me" option). It requires preparation beforehand though.

I do agree here. The lock in for Triss is too early for non-book readers.

 

[Darth-Death]

I guess that's why it pays off to be semi faithful. Sleep with any women you want, except it can't be Triss nor Yen at the same time.

 

[jockmick]

Well they should be as accepting as Geralt was, in the books Yennefer spend years cheating on Geralt with another mage and when both men confront her to choose one of them she flee, wasn't that selfish ? Yet Geralt forgave her and come back to her because he love her.

As for Triss she manipulate geralt and use his amnesia to make him love her, wasn't that also selfish ?

The geralt of the books was in loe with yennefer, the amnesic Geralt was in love with triss, the TW3 Geralt is a combination of both, yet when Geralt is unable to choose between two girls he have known for decades because he care about them too much the game punish him by making him the bad guy of the story who end up alone and sad.

There should be at least one part of the game where Triss and Yenn present a ultimatum to geralt to choose one of them and there if Geralt tell them cleraly that he want to be with both at the same time therehe is being really selfish and the threesome scene will occur. Instead geralt can spend time in novigrad with triss to realize he love her and then some time in Skellige to realize that he still love her but if that the case he is condamned to be a whore.

I also would have liked an ultimatum at the end. Because, I wanted Yennefer, but I ended up alone because I told Triss to stay. I didn't even say I love her. But, it counted anyway, which I read was a bug according to a dev. And it also feels way over-the-top that Yennefer would dump Geralt just because a little side step with Triss, considering their long and shared past, which has had far bigger obstacles than the Triss romance. I did not like that, because I'm a book reader, and that didn't sit well with me how the relationship ended. Because, as a book reader, Geralt and Yennefer should always be together.

 

[Ganen]

Referring to the people talking about how pursuing both women ends in a "superficial" outcome:

If we look about it well monogamy isn't really anything other than a lifestyle choice or state of emotional connection, some cultures in real life don't even frown upon it and even in cultures who do frown upon it, there are plenty of open minded individuals who don't actually go with the traditional code of 1 man 1 women.
Humans are not a monogamous species, that's biological fact, and everyone knows that even if you deeply love someone you can also love other people at the same time, and since its "hard" to quantify love...

But let's go with the norm, most people (even ones who dont frown on "open" relationships) find the idea of commitment to one mate part of what love is about (and it is in a way only it is a choice that both make that doesnt necessarily mean there is or is not love) and so Geralt, Triss and Yen would fit into that category, they could full well make a scene not unlike dragon age games do where the women confront you or each other to make a choice.

 

[KillAWatt1705]

Because, I wanted Yennefer, but I ended up alone because I told Triss to stay. I didn't even say I love her. But, it counted anyway, which I read was a bug according to a dev.

I'm curious, where did you read this was a bug? I also fell into the same "trap" as it were. As Ive read the books I wanted Yennefer as my romantic choice, but I also chose the "Stay with me" option given that the other options were "I love you" and "Farewell." I didn't want Triss to go, but it ended up meaning we entered a romance anyways.

 

[nordelaire]

. And it also feels way over-the-top that Yennefer would dump Geralt just because a little side step with Triss, considering their long and shared past, which has had far bigger obstacles than the Triss romance. I did not like that, because I'm a book reader, and that didn't sit well with me how the relationship ended. Because, as a book reader, Geralt and Yennefer should always be together.

I agree, i'm a book reader too and i prefer Triss over Yen but your point still remain, Geralt and Yen knews each other for years, he made the last wish to save Yen life where he could have wish to be rich or other thing, he trade his soul for Yennefer to Eredin without hesitation before the witcher 1. same goes for Triss, he slaughtered an entire nilfgaardian garnison to rescue her, he face with hunter and helped her with the mages. So we can't call him selfish.

As for the punishment part I think it would make sense for Yennefer to do that, tie him to a bed and leave him there but in that case she would came back afterward, she would just not leave, he had good reason to have feelings for Triss (with the amnesia and all) and she's already forgive him the whole Fringilla thing who was rather unforgivable (sleeping for month with another woman while she was imprisoned)
And i don't understand why Triss would accept to help yennefer with the threesome punishment, I mean in the course of a few years she grows from being just a one night stand/sex friends to someone that Geralt love as much as yennefer, that shoudl be in off to please her

Even if yen decided that she had in-off of geralt behaviour and that with the borken wish she didn't have any reason to stay. Triss would be supposed to see this as an opportunity to be with Geralt once yen is out of the picture, Geralt ending alone don't make sense at all, it's a really frustrating and incoherent turn of events >_<.

 

[jockmick]

I'm curious, where did you read this was a bug? I also fell into the same "trap" as it were. As Ive read the books I wanted Yennefer as my romantic choice, but I also chose the "Stay with me" option given that the other options were "I love you" and "Farewell." I didn't want Triss to go, but it ended up meaning we entered a romance anyways.

http://forums.cdprojektred.com/thre...a-MAJOR-flaw?p=1712752&viewfull=1#post1712752