2 rows instead of 3. Homecoming. [POLL]

[G4merY]

Thats the mindset right before anything bad happend.

But it's a bad experience for you, and a number of other players.

I hadn't played Closed Beta, so I don't know how good it was, although I can trust you. But we've come a long way from then. And CDPR mustn't have been happy with the state of things, and the vision that they had for this game. What's good is subjective for you, me and them.

What I'm concerned with is that they might not change the game enough with Homecoming, specially visually, and some gameplay elements.

Edit: And the "lost legs" isn't an appropriate example. It's more like your partner isn't faithful to you anymore, so you wish them luck and leave them...instead of bugging them to go back to Closed Beta. We all have our motivations, aspirations, and opinions.

 

[G4merY]

@Shadow-Stalker They aren't offering you a chicken-wing, but a dish you haven't ever tasted before. Now, you might have an opinion that that dish is bad, but the fact is that you haven't tried it, and don't know how they cook it. For all you know, it might turn out better than the prime ribeye steak you originally ordered. Or worse. #GoGreen

 

[G4merY]

I do play something else now, but I had hoped HC could reignite my love for the game, because I still love the core concept of the game and I'm a huge witcher fan.

Same here. So let's keep our fingers crossed, for Homecoming.

 

[xferus]

@Shadow-Stalker They aren't offering you a chicken-wing, but a dish you haven't ever tasted before. Now, you might have an opinion that that dish is bad, but the fact is that you haven't tried it, and don't know how they cook it. For all you know, it might turn out better than the prime ribeye steak you originally ordered. Or worse. #GoGreen

I don't care about their new dish, because I want my good old dish I've eaten so many times, just spiced up a bit (and possibly with French fries a.k.a. a campaign mode). What then? This is just an arrogant approach to your customers - "We know you want something else, but we don't care, our new dish will be the only thing you can order now". "Oh yeah? So... f... off! I'm going to another restaurant!" - would be my response. Period.

Anyway, does anyone see how many archetypes are going to be butchered (or made stupid)? Imagine playing a movement, weather or mill deck in a 2-row "Gwent"? It's either impossible, binary or ineffective.

 

[Restlessdingo32]

And when was it? Geralt into Eredin? Henselt promote? Play weather and set everything on the row to 1?

Also, a put Midwinter "create" debacle on community as well. People were constantly whining about how this game was predictable and were demanding more excitement and unpredictability, read rng...

Fine is subjective. So is good, bad, horrible, great or exciting. Personally, the game felt better in CB, despite the flaws, early OB, despite the flaws there, and has been steadily going down-hill. Homecoming, on the surface, sounds like a continuation of the trend. It doesn't sound much like returning the game to it's roots either. Obviously, this is still subjective and lacks proper information to claim with certainty.

For clarification, many changes to different aspects of the game were necessary. The issue isn't changing aspects of the game. The issue has been how they have changed them. In a general sense, the trend seems to have been to add flexibility, player freedom to both deck building and card play decisions, and increase the design space (give the developers more freedom in design). From my perspective, the way many of the changes were made to do so has also marginalized or outright removed much of the decision making going into when, where and how cards are played.

I'm not sure what you're getting at with putting blame on the "community". Developers make the game. Players give feedback. It's up to the developer to decide how they use feedback and, more importantly, how they address problematic areas of the game. Failure in either area does not rest on the players.

Adding RNG to the game isn't the only way to reduce predictability. Even if it did, predictability is a large component of the skill gap. It's not even particularly bad for the game to be predictable from a deck A vs deck B perspective. So long as the play by play and round by round isn't completely predictable and there is variability in the decision making process. In other words, knowing the opponent strategy is fine if they can still adjust their tactics to achieve it.

Going back to late CB and early OB.... At both points certain decks floated to the top, as they do in every meta once it has a chance to settle. At both points this is how the game play felt. I might see the exact same deck or build and get unique game play over the course of the game. As time has gone by this has felt like it's stopped being the case. Same deck/build, same game, lack of replay value. Not good for a CCG.

 

[xferus]

Homecoming, on the surface, sounds like a continuation of the trend. It doesn't sound much like returning the game to it's roots either..

Definitely. The name "Homecoming" is misleading AF. It has nothing to do with coming home... Or maybe I'm just blind and I can't see this "home" thingy here... Mind you, CDPR, honesty is one of the important ingredients of showing respect to your customers.

 

[Fimbulthrym]

And when was it? Geralt into Eredin? Henselt promote? Play weather and set everything on the row to 1?

I had much more fun with each of them then now. I liked even the OFI deck (as opponent) because you could mostly do something about that. But i have to admitt i never played higher ranks (>21, i just dont have the time for that) so i dont get to the point were it could be frustrating.

 

[G4merY]

Imagine playing a movement, weather or mill deck in a 2-row "Gwent"? It's either impossible, binary or ineffective.

No, they redistribute the damage value to make it work. What do you think they're testing? For example, weather does 6 damage on 3 rows. So increase damage by 1, so that they still do 6 damage on 2 rows. Chances are, hazard decks will gain from 2 rows the most! Because their victims will have reduced options. And we want strong weather, at least me. Let's make Clear Skies and Dimeritium Shackles great again!

 

[BornBoring]

Also, a put Midwinter "create" debacle on community as well. People were constantly whining about how this game was predictable and were demanding more excitement and unpredictability, read rng...

And who were these people? A few streamers and a minority of players were in favor of this decision. I remember there was huge discontent about this mechanic since the first time they showed it. I also remember other people saying you can't judge a mechanic you have never played with (esspecially rethaz wasted a lot of time to tell us how great create is). This reminds me of sth.....


I know the flaws gwent had during CB. You could see a lot of progress during CB though (can't say this about OB). Remove faction abilites, find an interesting and balanced way too implement weather (tough task, but imo: current system is kind of balanced (a bit weak atm), but not interesting at all), improve card balance and you have a way better game than we have now (just my opinion).
You can't argue against that statement: I had way more fun. Yes, some broken sh*t was annoying, but some also extremely fun to play with. I've played dozens of decks in casual, because there were so many interesting things you could do, despite the card pool being so small. Only thing I've to admitt: pre midwinter ranked was a bit more enjoyable than end of CB ranked, because it was way more balanced.

 

[Archpriest]

Fine is subjective. So is good, bad, horrible, great or exciting. Personally, the game felt better in CB, despite the flaws, early OB, despite the flaws there, and has been steadily going down-hill. Homecoming, on the surface, sounds like a continuation of the trend. It doesn't sound much like returning the game to it's roots either. Obviously, this is still subjective and lacks proper information to claim with certainty.

Then why speak for the whole community? I personally think that Henselt Promote was the dumbest meta in Gwent.
I'll tell you what the real roots are, in my view: not catering to casuals, removing the cartoonish design, creating a good, skill based game. Given the current situation, keeping three rows is way down on my list.

I'm not sure what you're getting at with putting blame on the "community". Developers make the game. Players give feedback. It's up to the developer to decide how they use feedback and, more importantly, how they address problematic areas of the game. Failure in either area does not rest on the players.

Because apparently "community" knew better. Same as now with 3 rows. I do not put the sole blame or even half of it on players, mind you. But let's not pretend that CDPR didn't cave a bit under that pressure.

Going back to late CB and early OB.... At both points certain decks floated to the top, as they do in every meta once it has a chance to settle. At both points this is how the game play felt. I might see the exact same deck or build and get unique game play over the course of the game. As time has gone by this has felt like it's stopped being the case. Same deck/build, same game, lack of replay value. Not good for a CCG.

The most diverse meta was right before the last patch. Yes, ST was a bit annoying but you could definitely get to GM with 4? 5? decks, different factions. But no, the "community" knew better and kept whining.

So, I hope you'll excuse me my skepticism towards claims made by the aforementioned "community". I also dislike the mob mentality very much, which was/is everpresent.

 

[Archpriest]

Definitely. The name "Homecoming" is misleading AF. It has nothing to do with coming home... Or maybe I'm just blind and I can't see this "home" thingy here... Mind you, CDPR, honesty is one of the important ingredients of showing respect to your customers.

What Homecoming would be in your view? A 3 Decoys/5 CA Spies fest from Witcher 3?

 

[Archpriest]

And who were these people? A few streamers and a minority of players were in favor of this decision. I remember there was huge discontent about this mechanic since the first time they showed it. I also remember other people saying you can't judge a mechanic you have never played with (esspecially rethaz wasted a lot of time to tell us how great create is). This reminds me of sth.....

The whole reddit was up and crying. And rethaz was high in favor there at the time...

You can't argue against that statement: I had way more fun. Yes, some broken sh*t was annoying, but some also extremely fun to play with. I've played dozens of decks in casual, because there were so many interesting things you could do, despite the card pool being so small. Only thing I've to admitt: pre midwinter ranked was a bit more enjoyable than end of CB ranked, because it was way more balanced.

I'm not arguing how you felt, it's your personal preference. I'm saying that your feelings aren't any indication of the facts. Especially if you're not playing on the Ladder consistently. Why people are having such a short memory is beyond me - having 1-2 decks isn't balanced. We had 4-5 decks right before the "Swap" update. Btw, I hated midwinter and, most of all, Create.

@mods

Sorry, i'm not used to the new design.

 

[BornBoring]

The whole reddit was up and crying. And rethaz was high in favor there at the time...

Häh, yes, I know the majority hated create since the first time they've shown it. That's what I said.

Especially if you're not playing on the Ladder consistently

Yes, thank you, but I've been in the top 1000 of the ladder for a long time during CB and 2 times at the end of the four seasons I've played during OB. So, I guess, I know a bit how ranked play looked like. Trying to discredit other people to help your argumentation is just incredibly weak.

Why people are having such a short memory is beyond me - having 1-2 decks isn't balanced.

I don't know about what season you are talking, but pre-midwinter update had way more competitive decks than 1-2.

I'm saying that your feelings aren't any indication of the facts.

Yes and the same applies to your opinion. So stop telling everyone who doesn't agree with you is either a bad player or doesn't remember anything.

 

[G4merY]

I'll tell you what the real roots are, in my view: removing the cartoonish design,

This CDPR, this! Why, when we know that you can deliver a realistic design, and atmospheric tavern-like atmosphere with the music and sound effects (people talking, drinks being put on the table, poured in glasses, etc.)...like from the original Witcher game.

A 3 Decoys/5 CA Spies fest from Witcher 3?

 

[Restlessdingo32]

Then why speak for the whole community? I personally think that Henselt Promote was the dumbest meta in Gwent.
I'll tell you what the real roots are, in my view: not catering to casuals, removing the cartoonish design, creating a good, skill based game. Given the current situation, keeping three rows is way down on my list.

Henselt Promote was an issue because Promote was a terrible mechanic. It was even worse of a mechanic when used the way people started using it. Even still, Henselt Promote could be hard countered and would simply lose against the right build. Case and point, a heavy control deck where you murdered everything they put on the siege row absolutely destroyed it.

The roots of Gwent are a skill based CCG with depth to the choices going into where, when and how you play cards, IMO. Even when it had problems this is how the game play felt. I might play one card and have 3-4+ decisions going on in the back of my head on that one card play. If I outplayed the other guy, he lost. As the game has matured it has moved away from both elements. A quick look at proposed changes doesn't raise any warm, fuzzy feelings of getting back to the roots of the game. It raises concern it's doing the complete opposite. I could be wrong. I hope I am.

Because apparently "community" knew better. Same as now with 3 rows. I do not put the sole blame or even half of it on players, mind you. But let's not pretend that CDPR didn't cave a bit under that pressure.

It doesn't matter what the community knows or thinks it knows. We aren't professional game developers. Professional game developers are supposed to be experts in their field. It's their job to design the game, decide how feedback is used and make the final decision on all matters related to game design. So no, they did not have to "cave" under the pressure. Just like they are fully within their right to ignore everything plastered all over the official forums, reddit, whatever about Homecoming.

Sitting there combing through reddit and deciding what to "cave" on would explain a thing or two.

The most diverse meta was right before the last patch. Yes, ST was a bit annoying but you could definitely get to GM with 4? 5? decks, different factions. But no, the "community" knew better and kept whining.

So, I hope you'll excuse me my skepticism towards claims made by the aforementioned "community". I also dislike the mob mentality very much, which was/is everpresent.

Hate to break it to you but it's been like this for every iteration of the game. 4-6 decks end up "tier 1" and dominate the game at higher levels of play. The difference isn't whether certain decks float to the top. It's extremely difficult to prevent this from happening once a meta settles down, the strongest general concepts are recognized and the individual cards best able to exploit those concepts are identified. The difference is in the game play.

My previous post isn't claiming the game is bad. My previous post is claiming the game play has progressively regressed over the life-time of the game. This isn't a statement of fact. It's an opinion.

Oddly, most of the complaints at various points in the game have nothing to do with the top decks at higher levels of play. They are routinely targeted at mid-tier play, where many players see a concept as overpowered simply because they do not fully grasp how to stop, play around or deal with it.

 

[Archpriest]

Hate to break it to you but it's been like this for every iteration of the game. 4-6 decks end up "tier 1" and dominate the game at higher levels of play.

Hate to break it to you but I'm playing since day 1 of CB and I've seen quite a few 1-2 deck dominated meta's. Besides pre-Swap patch, I don't recall any season with 4-5 GM capable decks. I'm talking about different types and different factions.

Oddly, most of the complaints at various points in the game have nothing to do with the top decks at higher levels of play. They are routinely targeted at mid-tier play, where many players see a concept as overpowered simply because they do not fully grasp how to stop, play around or deal with it.

This is a bit off-topic but: Are you aware that top was and is dominated by OP decks? Every damn season. Has nothing to do with the illusory "because they do not fully grasp how to stop, play around or deal with it" notion, which is a complete bs, if I may. OP decks are there for a reason. This comes from someone who usually gets to GM against the grain. Also, look up in the Pro-Ladder, most of the players reached their top MMR with SK already. "Coincidentally" SK is dominating regular Ladder as well. Why is that?

P.S. At this moment, Gwent is a failure in my eyes. No uniqueness of factions, everything is pretty binary, apart from very few exceptions. Keeping it as it is, I'm talking about the current design, is probably a bad idea. It has to change and the changes need to be drastic. If Homecoming fails, I'd be bummed but at least CDPR tried. But this...

 

[Archpriest]

This CDPR, this! Why, when we know that you can deliver a realistic design, and atmospheric tavern-like atmosphere with the music and sound effects (people talking, drinks being put on the table, poured in glasses, etc.)...like from the original Witcher game.

I'm sorry, I want to clarify that this is compared to the "3 rows" outcry. I woulldn't give a damn if there were only one row but the game is good and skill-based. But yeah, the lore and atmosphere are important too. I don't play any other CCG, couldn't care less about them. The only reason I play Gwent is because of the books and the Witcher game.

 

[Archpriest]

Häh, yes, I know the majority hated create since the first time they've shown it. That's what I said.

And so did I but the majority was ecstatic.

Yes, thank you, but I've been in the top 1000 of the ladder for a long time during CB and 2 times at the end of the four seasons I've played during OB. So, I guess, I know a bit how ranked play looked like. Trying to discredit other people to help your argumentation is just incredibly weak.

It was not to discredit you. But if you're not playing lately, not in cb but now, then your argument on the current situation can't have credibility, I'm afraid. Or did I misread your post?

I don't know about what season you are talking, but pre-midwinter update had way more competitive decks than 1-2.

2-3? Care to recall those? When I'm saying 4-5 decks, I mean 4-5 "readily available" GM decks.

Yes and the same applies to your opinion. So stop telling everyone who doesn't agree with you is either a bad player or doesn't remember anything.

I haven't called anyone a bad player so far, do not make stuff up.

 

[Sardukhar]

Doo dee doo dee.

Everyone keep it CIVIL please. If you're not sure that post you're about to send is civil, then don't post it. If you do post it and we decide it's not civil, well. Not so good.

 

[Thunderscape]

Hate to break it to you but I'm playing since day 1 of CB and I've seen quite a few 1-2 deck dominated meta's. Besides pre-Swap patch, I don't recall any season with 4-5 GM capable decks. I'm talking about different types and different factions.

You usually have almost a viable deck per faction.
Theres almost always a bad faction that got nerfed hard. Every patch. Now it seems to be NR.

Its hard to have multiple decks that are GM ready with such a limited card pool.
We need more cards per faction for that to happen.

If we could mix factions you probably would see more.