Combat Thread - General

[Snowflakez]

I know I haven't been terribly objective lately.

Maybe I'm wrong, I really REALLY REALLY hope I'm wrong, but I'm even more concerned I'm not.

But we have no reason to think it's generic. Just because it's an FPS, does not mean it's inherently the same as all other FPS (no more than an RPG is the same as every other RPG). That's kinda the point I was making. I think MQ let her frustrations affect her ability to objectively look at the many differences (and, from what I can tell, benefits) of 2077's FPS combat over Doom/Bioshock/etc.

But I totally get your worries regarding RPG vs FPS combat.

Anyway, to your other point, I think you are confusing perks and skills again. A CDPR employee themselves differentiated the three (attributes, perks, skills), I think it may have been Vattier, just yesterday or earlier today. So it's not just journalists being dummies and for some reason using three words to refer to two.

Perks = stat bonuses, "you can now do a whirlwind," etc. (this probably includes wallrunning and stuff).
Skills = Engineering, persuasion, hacking... at least hacking and engineering are confirmed to be in-game. I'm not sure if any others were shown in the demo. These may not necessarily unlock entirely new abilities, but they'll give you a better chance, if not a 100% chance, at doing certain things in the game. Fiddling with wall panels and such.
Attributes = we know what these are already.

Dunno. Just makes sense to me.

 

[Suhiira]

But we have no reason to think it's generic. Just because it's an FPS, does not mean it's inherently the same as all other FPS (no more than an RPG is the same as every other RPG). That's kinda the point I was making. I think MQ let her frustrations affect her ability to objectively look at the many differences (and, from what I can tell, benefits) of 2077's FPS combat over Doom/Bioshock/etc.

I hope you're right. But Doom2077 is exactly what I fear.

Anyway, to your other point, I think you are confusing perks and skills again. A CDPR employee themselves differentiated the three (attributes, perks, skills), I think it may have been Vattier, just yesterday or earlier today. So it's not just journalists being dummies and for some reason using three words to refer to two.

Perks = stat bonuses, "you can now do a whirlwind," etc. (this probably includes wallrunning and stuff).
Skills = Engineering, persuasion, hacking... at least hacking and engineering are confirmed to be in-game. I'm not sure if any others were shown in the demo. These may not necessarily unlock entirely new abilities, but they'll give you a better chance, if not a 100% chance, at doing certain things in the game. Fiddling with wall panels and such.
Attributes = we know what these are already.

Dunno. Just makes sense to me.

Thing is are "you can now do a whirlwind," etc. just the end-game skills/perks in the tree that starts with engineering/hacking etc.? It was said wallrunning was a late game ability.

 

[Snowflakez]

I hope you're right. But Doom2077 is exactly what I fear.


Thing is are "you can now do a whirlwind," etc. just the end-game skills/perks in the tree that starts with engineering/hacking etc.? It was said wallrunning was a late game ability.

You are again mixing skills and perks. A skill is not a perk, a perk is not a skill, near as I can tell. I don't think CDPR views the terms as interchangeable. Engineering seems to be its own separate thing, like weapon handling and other stuff from the PnP.

Wallrunning would fall under the (agile) "Solo" portion of the perk trees. Perks are strictly a game mechanic, I don't think they have much (if any) relation to the PnP. I do not think they include skills. I could be wrong. But again, it seems these three things are different and separate progression system.

 

[Gillian_Seed]

Doom2077 is exactly what I fear.

I have similar concerns and not to be overly dramatic here but before I learned about CP2077 I had given up on the gaming industry after many years as I found myself disappointed with almost every purchase. I came to the conclusion that I was spending far too much money hunting and hoping for something that would satisfy me. Not that it matters to the industry but for me personally I really need this game to hit the mark or it's very likely I'll have to find a new passion to dump my money into.

 

[Suhiira]

You are again mixing skills and perks.

Actually I don't confuse the two, each is a very distinct and separate thing.
But I fear CDPR is.
A good many FPS games do so after all.

 

[Loostreaks]

I think they asked Kyle on how difficulty/dying will play out. Stated it's pretty standard, difficulty sliders like in most rpgs.
This kind of mode would work perfectly for Cyberpunk.
You save the game after each rest, only one, and Trauma team as your back up. When you're down it would work
similar to Far Cry II buddy system, screen is blurred, you see everything directly as they pull you away from enemies, dramatic scene as they try to resuscitate you, the full deal.This would also add "weight" do dialogue: no reloading to get a "better option", choice is one and done and you have to live with it.

 

[TrueForestRaptor]

I think I actually really like this option. Everydeath drives up your debt until Trauma Team no longuer responds and it's game over, man, game over.

Good catch! Have a Red Point!

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

Yes, we'll have CDPRs legendary attention to detail and story telling. But we won't have have the option for RPG/character combat.

Nor skill checks in dialog, apparently.

A lot of questionmarks in this game. Quite a lot.

Will a good RPG layered under a generic FPS work?

Not to me it won't. I've played too many of these games where I have to actively avoid certain design solutions, cause they are just not up my alley (the new Deus Ex games in the fore front).

I can tolerate clumsiness in design, tons of it even, if the idea behind the execution is interesting and engaging, but I can not find anything good - anything - in an RPG cutting corners with combat by just making it a generic occasional (how ever frequent) FPS event.

 

[4meg]

Yeah, I struggle with this as well. For me, the first RPGs I played were the old Bards tale and Ultima Underworld. The only viewpoint you had was First Person.

So the idea of a first-person RPG as opposed to a game where you are -also- in First Person and have a gun in your hand is far from novel for me.

Deus Ex was not really close to Quake. I mean, no.

I mean, if stats are your thing:

So I don't really see the confusion between a Shooter and a Role Playing game...that also has shooting.

One is fast and frenetic and relies nearly exclusively on -your- skills and genetic advantages. The other, although it may be fast, is much less frenetic and relies on different skills (character build, quest solving, gear choices) to succeed.

Not like one is so much easier than the others. Check online help FAQs and forums for RPGs vs Shooters. Pages and pages of gear build and puzzle advice.

They are different genres, is all.

My first and still one of my favourite rpgs.

And Zork. I almost forgot Zork.

I hope you're right. But Doom2077 is exactly what I fear.

My fear exactly.

 

[Snowflakez]

I'm very confused by people who are expecting Doom2077.

Have you read the previews? The combat is quite clearly not Doom. If you can't differentiate between action combat with a lot more player agency and options than action combat where you literally just go shooty bang bang on some heckin' demons, I'll admit I don't understand that and would love clarification.

Unless you're just being hyperbolic and choosing a random adrenaline-filled shooter for the lulz. That's fine too.

If you're just worried that the combat will be more action than RPG, that's a fair concern and not one I'm going to argue with right now. But if you're worried it'll be "just another shooter," you haven't played many of today's shooters...

 

[exogenesis09]

I’m not finish watching it yet, but YongYea confirmed that the game offer Fast Paced Combat which I’m really excited too as I say since the past. The fact that the fast paced action does make sense for them to implement it in the game due it’s recognizable content as a both Shooter/Melee Action RPG Game set in a Sci-Fi World.

Yes, fast paced combat will be more similar to the games like Doom with Bioshock/Borderland’ish kind of gameplay. If you imagine it..

 

[Yhiirt]

Cyberpunk is not a FPS. It's not a shooter with RPG mechanics either.

Cyberpunk is a role-playing game with attributes, skills, perks, items and choices with consequences. First person perspective is a tool we decided to use for narrative reasons.

has sense but why implement an heavy character creator if there is no possibility to look at it, apart those brief cutscenes?

 

[Snowflakez]

I’m not finish watching it yet, but YongYea confirmed that the game offer Fast Paced Combat which I’m really excited too as I say since the past. The fact that the fast paced action does make sense for them to implement it in the game due it’s recognizable content as a both Shooter/Melee Action RPG Game set in a Sci-Fi World.

Yes, fast paced combat will be more similar to the games like Doom with Bioshock/Borderland’ish kind of gameplay. If you imagine it..

Before anyone freaks out, this is nothing new. We still don't know whether or not skills/attributes/WTF-ever will affect accuracy.

I'm gonna watch this video, though, I was looking forward to Yong's full thoughts.

 

[JustACourier]

I expected it to be an RPG first and foremost, maybe with clunky combat, but if choices, consequences and branching narrative were present I would tolerate it. I didn't want it to be great FPS with some tacked on RPG elements. I wanted it to be AAA Fallout NV.
Now as I realised that it's not the case, I've come to terms with the fact that these are my expectations that were the problem. I had no reason to expect them to make the game I want to, because it's their game and they had never explicitly promised something I expected them to do. So now I am past dissapointment and ready to accept this game the way it was made to be. FPS or not.

 

[BaalNergal]

Yeah it doesn't seem to make much sense. I think they have done a bad job of explaining that. I mean... aren't those things actually easier in tpp? I guess maybe when we see gameplay we will understand better. will be interesting to see if the combat swings more towards fps rpg or rpg fps though.

This makes me wonder if they have somehow done something completely different with things like wall jumping. Wall jumping is one of the things that is traditionally TPP; it is native to Mario, Metroid, Castlevania... games that are TPP and have a platformer history. And extremely difficult to pull off in FPP at best.

 

[Suhiira]

I'm very confused by people who are expecting Doom2077.
Unless you're just being hyperbolic and choosing a random adrenaline-filled shooter for the lulz. That's fine too.

"Slightly" hyperbolic.
The primary issue is twitch combat, doesn't matter if it's vs 1 wino or 50 demons.

If we're understanding the way they've implemented Smartguns (select a target and the some under-the-hood game mechanics decide if you hit or not apparently) AND they are available from the start of the game this isn't an issue. No need try to get a crosshair on the right pixel in a fraction of a second. But it seems Smartguns are a late-game item so that means you're forced to play shooter/twitch combat early game.

If you're just worried that the combat will be more action than RPG, that's a fair concern and not one I'm going to argue with right now. But if you're worried it'll be "just another shooter," you haven't played many of today's shooters...

You're 100% correct, I don't play shooters, ever.
I gave up on them long, long ago because I can't play them. I've mentioned I played Witcher 3 in "Story" mode because even it's combat was too "twitchy" (needing to time dodges and parrys).

 

[MGODP]

This makes me wonder if they have somehow done something completely different with things like wall jumping. Wall jumping is one of the things that is traditionally TPP; it is native to Mario, Metroid, Castlevania... games that are TPP and have a platformer history. And extremely difficult to pull off in FPP at best.

Perhaps the difficulty they were referring to is allowing the player to wall run etc whilst maintaining a functional aim mechanic.

A good example of what they might be going for is Lucio's wall ride in Overwatch. He is able to cling to and ride along a wall in first person, while still allowing the player to aim and shoot in all directions.

More recent first-person games have started to show how dynamic movement systems can be done well from this perspective; obvious examples are things like Mirror's Edge and Dying Light.

 

[Snowflakez]

"Slightly" hyperbolic.
The primary issue is twitch combat, doesn't matter if it's vs 1 wino or 50 demons.

If we're understanding the way they've implemented Smartguns (select a target and the some under-the-hood game mechanics decide if you hit or not apparently) AND they are available from the start of the game this isn't an issue. No need try to get a crosshair on the right pixel in a fraction of a second. But it seems Smartguns are a late-game item so that means you're forced to play shooter/twitch combat early game.


You're 100% correct, I don't play shooters, ever.
I gave up on them long, long ago because I can't play them. I've mentioned I played Witcher 3 in "Story" mode because even it's combat was too "twitchy" (needing to time dodges and parrys).

If you play on PC, it might be possible to just cheat an item in if need be, or steal a smartgun from someone else.

This should at least work for you and (maybe, if he's interested in the game after learning more about it) Kofe, since I believe you both do play on PC. Can't speak for other people who have issues with twitch combat, though, they may play on console.

 

[Suhiira]

If you play on PC, it might be possible to just cheat an item in if need be, or steal a smartgun from someone else.

Sure, I'm a programmer after all I can hack almost any game. But that's totally beside the point.

If a game, any game, requires FPS/twitch combat (or platforming, or QTE events, or ... or ... or ...) no matter how you try to gloss it over it's not a "true" RPG where event resolution is based on character stats/skills/perks. You're not playing a character with their strengths and weakness but an avatar with the players strengths and weaknesses.

 

[Snowflakez]

Sure, I'm a programmer after all I can hack almost any game. But that's totally beside the point.

If a game, any game, requires FPS/twitch combat (or platforming, or QTE events, or ... or ... or ...) no matter how you try to gloss it over it's not a "true" RPG where event resolution is based on character stats/skills/perks. You're not playing a character with their strengths and weakness but an avatar with the players strengths and weaknesses.

I'm aware, I was just giving you a possible solution to the problem you had with twitch combat.

I think it seems pretty likely that the game will not be a true RPG by your definition, but we still don't know if stats impact weapons, and to what degree they do if so.