RPG Mechanics: Skill Progression and Roles

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Is this actually how progression is going to function in CP?
Yep, I've posted the tweet in several places, but I understand not everybody has time or the inclination to read through a bunch of threads.

Thanks @Rawls for posting. Perhaps update the unofficial Q&A if you haven't already?

At any rate, it's very clear that we do indeed have three separate forms of progression, which is excellent and exactly what we were hoping for. The Witcher 3 was, understandably (given the lore), quite limited in this regard. Geralt was Geralt. A swordmaster and a light magic user, but there wasn't much else to him.

In 2077, though... we should have way more options.
 
On the one hand I get why they're doing it like that, but on the other it was really painful in Skyrim because of how perk dependent it got at later levels.
 
On the one hand I get why they're doing it like that, but on the other it was really painful in Skyrim because of how perk dependent it got at later levels.
As long as they keep the number of perks down to a dull roar and make them minor bonuses not game changing advantages it shouldn't be a problem.
 
On the one hand I get why they're doing it like that, but on the other it was really painful in Skyrim because of how perk dependent it got at later levels.
I don't think skills are related to perks.

I'm assuming it's more like Oblivion, where you passively unlock bonuses/new abilities/whatever as your skills get higher. Perks are a separate progression system.
 
I don't think skills are related to perks.

It should be. Enderal did the opposite and it did not work well...you could perform some high skill ability, like a cool combat technique, without actually having any training in it. It made absolutely no sense and progression was more diluted as result.

Perks should feel unique, more direct talents and abilities in specific skill, so two characters equally trained in same skill can play completely differently. This is what mod overhauls like Ordinator do well. And why Action rpgs have better perks ( than classic rpgs): they more directly affect gameplay ( often with player skill factor involved).

For skill, like small firearms, improvement in every rank would make your basic handling better: recoil, crosshair, draw speed, etc.

Perks are more specific, should make you extraordinarily talented in certain base function or you could do something different with it.

I'm hoping all these three will be intertwined. Stats as char defining attributes and basic passive benefits/malus, skill as generic proficiency, perks as extraordinary talents and abilities with skills acting as their prerequisites and stats will augment/synergize with their effects and of certain cyberware.

Perk: Fast dodge. Pre requisite: Athletics, rank 3. For characters with high Reflexes, it becomes faster with better response time. For max Reflexes you also gain certain I frames.

This is what gives the system depth.
 
As long as perks introduce interesting functions and mechanics (like Deus Ex augmentations), and aren't just flat "Do X% more damage with Y" then I'm ok with it.
 
It should be. Enderal did the opposite and it did not work well...you could perform some high skill ability, like a cool combat technique, without actually having any training in it. It made absolutely no sense and progression was more diluted as result.

Perks should feel unique, more direct talents and abilities in specific skill, so two characters equally trained in same skill can play completely differently. This is what mod overhauls like Ordinator do well. And why Action rpgs have better perks ( than classic rpgs): they more directly affect gameplay ( often with player skill factor involved).

For skill, like small firearms, improvement in every rank would make your basic handling better: recoil, crosshair, draw speed, etc.

Perks are more specific, should make you extraordinarily talented in certain base function or you could do something different with it.

I'm hoping all these three will be intertwined. Stats as char defining attributes and basic passive benefits/malus, skill as generic proficiency, perks as extraordinary talents and abilities with skills acting as their prerequisites and stats will augment/synergize with their effects and of certain cyberware.

Perk: Fast dodge. Pre requisite: Athletics, rank 3. For characters with high Reflexes, it becomes faster with better response time. For max Reflexes you also gain certain I frames.

This is what gives the system depth.

Nah, I think Perks will be related to the classes. I think skills are something everybody can do.

So, netrunner, techie, and solo perks, but all three classes CAN hack, all three classes CAN shoot, all three classes CAN use engineering stuff, but some classes are better at it than others, and maybe theres specific perks that enhance your abilities or unlock new things.

By separate, I mean they are distinct.

The reason I'm so excited is because a lot of people here thought that skills and perks were the same thing, just with different words describing them. Now, we have confirmation that they are separate but almost certainly intertwined progression systems. So, layers of progression.
 
Well I think augs will be more analogous to cyberware. But yes, % increases are not mechanically interesting.

Keeping skills and perks separate is a good approach here.
It makes sense you gain all those +x% automatically simply by improving your level of skill. This is intuitive and keeps char progression easier to navigate.
For some reason Bethesda decided to make a mess with Fallout IV, by tossing everything under perks.
 
I hope skills aren't advanced by performing specific stunts or maneuvers just once. This kind of silly mechanic seems to be spreading in games.
 
Nah, I think Perks will be related to the classes. I think skills are something everybody can do.

So, netrunner, techie, and solo perks, but all three classes CAN hack, all three classes CAN shoot, all three classes CAN use engineering stuff, but some classes are better at it than others, and maybe theres specific perks that enhance your abilities or unlock new things.

By separate, I mean they are distinct.

The reason I'm so excited is because a lot of people here thought that skills and perks were the same thing, just with different words describing them. Now, we have confirmation that they are separate but almost certainly intertwined progression systems. So, layers of progression.

They confirmed there is no "class system", that they're going for something more fluid. I'm 99% sure they were referring to perks there. This reminds me of Amalur.

Simple lineup of skills with linear progression by ranks.

hu0RC.jpg


So the question is what kind of structure will it have. I doubt they will go for something convoluted like Path of Exile, instead dividing it into three perk segments, Solo/Netrunner/Techie :

maxresdefault.jpg


Now, what I'm hoping is that they've learned some lessons since Witcher:

- Each perk should feel one of a kind, instead of having ranks. When you repeat it second/third time/etc, it loses it's "uniqueness"
- There has to be clear structure in how certain perks/abilities lead to similar of higher rank. Investing into basic parry perk leads to more unique parry abilities and eventually to mastery of it. Don't toss everything into it randomly.
- Passives should have secondary benefits that can change/tweak rules of gameplay and add more dynamic to it( like casting signs from adrenaline)
- Low "lvl" perks should not become useless later on. They should synergize/scale/benefit more player stats to compensate.
- Mastery should require heavy investment. You can only max one perk ( tree?), but attaining must feel rewarding.
 
They confirmed there is no "class system", that they're going for something more fluid. I'm 99% sure they were referring to perks there. This reminds me of Amalur.

OK, you don't seem to be grasping what I'm saying. I'll try to explain more clearly.

First, I understand there's no hard classes. However, Techie, Netrunner, and Solo are represented in the form of perk trees.

"So, netrunner, techie, and solo perks, but all three classes CAN hack, all three classes CAN shoot, all three classes CAN use engineering stuff, but some classes are better at it than others, and maybe theres specific perks that enhance your abilities or unlock new things. "

To simplify this:
  • Yes, there will be perks.
  • I believe those perks will be in three separate "trees," representing Techie, Solo, and Netrunner. CDPR's words seem to confirm this.
  • Yes, the "classes" are not set in stone. It's a fluid system. I know that. They are still represented and you can specialize if you wish.
  • Skills are independent of perks. It might intertwine here and there, it might not. But they are distinct.
  • In other words, it is not a Skyrim-style perk system, where the perks are DIRECTLY nested under skills. Rather, it's a class based perk system, where perks are for each class. Not each skill.
You go into your character menu, you see two separate windows: Perks and Skills. Skills list all of the various things that every "class" can do, regardless of the perks they've chosen. Hacking, shooting, sneaking, etc.

I understand if there's possibly a language barrier (or maybe I'm just not explaining well enough), but hopefully that made more sense.

Here's a picture, to show how I envision it:

Perk Tree Example.png


Separate, very possibly with some stuff intertwining. But notice how this is different than Skyrim's perk and skill system.

 
OK, you don't seem to be grasping what I'm saying. I'll try to explain more clearly.

First, I understand there's no hard classes. However, Techie, Netrunner, and Solo are represented in the form of perk trees.

"So, netrunner, techie, and solo perks, but all three classes CAN hack, all three classes CAN shoot, all three classes CAN use engineering stuff, but some classes are better at it than others, and maybe theres specific perks that enhance your abilities or unlock new things. "

To simplify this:
  • Yes, there will be perks.
  • I believe those perks will be in three separate "trees," representing Techie, Solo, and Netrunner. CDPR's words seem to confirm this.
  • Yes, the "classes" are not set in stone. It's a fluid system. I know that. They are still represented and you can specialize if you wish.
  • Skills are independent of perks. It might intertwine here and there, it might not. But they are distinct.
  • In other words, it is not a Skyrim-style perk system, where the perks are DIRECTLY nested under skills. Rather, it's a class based perk system, where perks are for each class. Not each skill.
You go into your character menu, you see two separate windows: Perks and Skills. Skills list all of the various things that every "class" can do, regardless of the perks they've chosen. Hacking, shooting, sneaking, etc.

I understand if there's possibly a language barrier (or maybe I'm just not explaining well enough), but hopefully that made more sense.

Here's a picture, to show how I envision it:

View attachment 10974002

Separate, very possibly with some stuff intertwining. But notice how this is different than Skyrim's perk and skill system.


I understand what you're saying, where I disagree is that they should be ( mostly) independent of skills.

We know Hacking will be a skill. And that there will be perks for Netrunner. How on earth could someone be a great Netrunner while this being completely unrelated to his/her hacking skill?

Probably Fallout New Vegas is a better example, perks structure in form of a "list", pick and choose. Worse visual style and structure, but more open and easier to implement.

FONV_SlayerPerk_PC_Steam.jpg
 
I understand what you're saying, where I disagree is that they should be ( mostly) independent of skills.

We know Hacking will be a skill. And that there will be perks for Netrunner. How on earth could someone be a great Netrunner while this being completely unrelated to his/her hacking skill?

Probably Fallout New Vegas is a better example, perks structure in form of a "list", pick and choose. Worse visual style and structure, but more open and easier to implement.
Ah, okay. Well yes, in that case, we are in the same boat. I loved New Vegas' system, but I admit I didn't find most of the perks terribly interesting.

If we look at what CDPR is already planning for some of the perks -- wall running, double jumping and such -- that seems to be much more focused on "abilities" as opposed to "you now do 20% more damage with guns!"

Loved New Vegas, and I wouldn't be unhappy with a system like that here (especially as it relates to skills), but the specifics I would want to be more substantial.
 
I'm not expecting perks to be game changing, and frankly would be very annoyed if they were. While I sort of understand the folks that don't want to see them be mere skill increases what else would you suggest? Saying you don't like it is fine, and totally useless, come up with a viable option.
 
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