My thought exactly.
You know, its hard for me to really discuss their melee combat without seeing more examples from their vision. I'm hoping for next time they want to release a video I want them to show off more on stealth, hacking, melee gameplay.
As the topic says; is dual-wielding combat a part of CP2077?
Dual-wielding always tickles my fancy for silly gunfights. I'm generally drawn to the absurdity whether it made sense or not. After watching the recent demo-reel I saw evidence of it's availability, but no confirmation.
-Jackie at the start is seen using dual (snazzy gold-plated) pistols before he ditches them for the Scavenger's cannon
-V has dual Mantis arm-blades
Whether the latter only comes in dual modifications for both arms, or I can choose to have two different two types of melee augmentations/weapons I'm not sure. Perhaps it's too early to ask but I am simply curious.
Dual-wielding always tickles my fancy for silly gunfights. I'm generally drawn to the absurdity whether it made sense or not. After watching the recent demo-reel I saw evidence of it's availability, but no confirmation.
-Jackie at the start is seen using dual (snazzy gold-plated) pistols before he ditches them for the Scavenger's cannon
-V has dual Mantis arm-blades
Whether the latter only comes in dual modifications for both arms, or I can choose to have two different two types of melee augmentations/weapons I'm not sure. Perhaps it's too early to ask but I am simply curious.
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Well there was two sword slots on the wall, in V's gear room...so highly likely although that could just be two different types of blades. But since the mantis blade animation has a dual wield use it is a good assumption that yes probably.
Not sure. Jackie clearly dual wields, but that could just be a flavor thing, or perhaps it's a Solo perk.
Wasn't the slogan of the PnP 'style over substance'? If so, yes please. Looks cool and opens several new approaches to combat.
Should CDPR decide to keep the combat somewhat grounded in reality, then no. Dualwielding is nearly impossible in reallife and the few people that can pull it off for a show usually mention using just one gun or blade would be more effective. Although some strenght/ coordination boosting cyberware could handwave those issues.
Should CDPR decide to keep the combat somewhat grounded in reality, then no. Dualwielding is nearly impossible in reallife and the few people that can pull it off for a show usually mention using just one gun or blade would be more effective. Although some strenght/ coordination boosting cyberware could handwave those issues.
I'm just wondering how stealth will be handled in the game. Will we be able to do the stealth approach like in Splinter Cell?
I do not think FPP is a major issue, there are several good first person stealth games. Including classics like the first Thief from 1998. But I am also not sure if traditional stealth gameplay will be a major element, since there is apparently no stealth meter of any sort on the HUD (maybe it requires specific cyberware, though). I do not recall if the enemies have any "suspicious" state either, where they did not fully detect the player's character.
This is a great thread. I agree with many of the opinions. The most glaring is that like everyone said the ai will be exploited and v becomes an overpowered tank and massacre everyone in the room. Or in streets and with no consequences.
What I would like to see ai being addressed is as follows
1. Morale system
• Weaker grunts easily feared stronger elite forces has stronger will and stay in the fight longer
• I like the idea of them running away upon seeing their members being massacred. In shadow of war this is in brutality skill. In that game it got a bit silly though how the orcs still comes after u even while half the stronghold are being massacred while ur riding a giant beast. It's like they haven't learned the lesson and doesn't react to the genocide.
• I support those who wrote about morale systems
2. Consequences and Reinforcements
• Strength and weapon tech accordingly to the group's ability eg militech weapons or homemade
• It's hardly immersive when nobody cares after u killed every being on the streets. Deus ex haha. And they didn't care even when I took human only train all the time. Military police gangs corporate hitmen should come after u.
• I really liked the system in shadow of war for killing their blood brothers. Maybe a kind of system like this. Maybe send out an elite Assassin after u or bounty hunter. Though interesting to see how CD red handles killing citizens street people
3. Random pop ups.
• Shadow of war orc pop ups is hilarious. I get they giving the impression of hundreds of orcs coming after u. Which is awesone But it's rather funny when u catch them spawning in the middle of nowhere while killing their team. Not too much illogical pop ups too please. Many times I strategize for half hour and made sure I killed off my enemies to isolate the boss and just to have orcs magically pop up from nowhere. Annoying haha
4. The ability to use their environment
• How many times have we climb up to a safe zone and enemies just can't get to u and they get sniped helplessly. I get it if their grunts but elite forces should handle themselves better. Stop me prancing around them
5. Sword fights or brawl
• Incapacitates enemies leading to non lethal takedowns
• Consequences later in game for enemy bosses of lethal or non lethal takedowns. They respect u or their "blood brother " goes after u shadow o war haha
• Enemies challenge u to a sword or fist fight. Non scripted.
6. Enemies using covers
• Animations for the vaulting and hiding behind tables sliding and ducking for cover. And done fluidly and quickly like a real person do
• They might not always pop their head up while shooting from cover. Blind shooting
• Some may go berserk and charge at u wildly from covers
• All in all v should not feel completely safe behind covers or up high in "safe zones"
• They should run immediately for cover after someone being sniped instead of just wandering around being target practices.
• Just as in demo ur partner lifted the car to prevent incoming fire maybe stronger enemies can do the same. Using their environments. Elites try electrocute u if uve stepped on water. Emp electronically disruptions etc. Bring out the big guns on u for being an annoying fly that bullys them. Non scripted. Counter these enemies by research and info gathering preparations.
7. Ambush and encounters
• They can ambush u or u can see them coming in the distance if u pay attention. In streets etc. Or ur net runner warns u of their presence.
• Surely the gangs will send out hitmen after all the killings. Or ur random killing spree. They should be able to stop u or u find it hard to get away to a degree. But able too if u try hard enough. Shouldn't be an easy thing to do. Otherwise bad guys might as well just commit mass suicide for not competent enough to get u
8. Adaptive
• Enemies adapt to ur fight style. Smoke u out from hiding spots and turn on night vision to see u in dark.
• I support the different fighting style for different factions mentioned. Also to those posts that touched on FEAR ai, them not being too smart without reason, and difficulty level in just raising the damage accuracy and too much lowering of health. Maybe less tactical from ais in lower difficulty. And less consequence for committing mass murder in lower difficulty. Or costs of items are higher in "death march" eg increase health augments. Using tech against v equipment jamming etc etc
9. Using traps and ammo
• Enemies are able to place traps in mid fight. Non scripted. Limited number of traps carried per ai. Random ammo count generated.
• Perhaps limited gun ammo per ai as well. So enemies do conserve ammo instead of raining down bullet hails into u. Unless its mindless cowboy grunts. Elites wait for u to pop ur head out. Unless it's their bunker where they've got an excuse to be unlimited. Eg turrets with limited ammo but unlimited while plugged into a box of ammo. Reloading animation of course .
10. Ai jobs
• Just like witcher as to the ai perform their roles according to day night cycle. Maybe certain missions ai perform specific things accordingly to the minute. Think the upcoming game the occupation. This allows for stealth play. Time specific eavesdropping and clue and resource gathering. Impersonation missions.
11. More consequences
• Being in the wrong place. shops behind counters waltzing into peoples home Managers office using their computers drinking their alcohol stealing their food bumping into people especially gangs randomly . Totally no consequence in deus ex. I took their credit chits and they just stare at u or shout hey n nothing happened. Holding out a grenade or gun ais should notice shouting "hes got a grenade in his hand!!"
• Robbing that palisade bank in deus ex.. jeez common my face was on every camera and security still didn't know who broke in. I walked out the vault door in front all cameras and security guards singing merry xmas and they don't know who dunnit. Wow.
And went back a 2nd and 3rd time no extra security measures no team of investigators or forensics. even left a big hole in the wall in conference room. And it's still there. Amazing.
• Logic logic logic
12. Ai partner not just for show
Who ever tags along should be of use as v is not a tank. Unless u augment to be one but at great cost of course and don't be annoying please. However demo shows great coop from partner ai. Great.
13. Pixel point accuracy. It can be frustratingly unfair haha. Maybe snipers and elites.
14. Cloaking and other abilities in general. I like enemies to use abilities we have ourselves but not with limitless resources. Smart use of cloaking. Not just for sake of it.
Anyhooo... in short. it's about diverse and smarter enemy ais. I think we all had it with ais which are such crash test dummies. An ambitious project like cp2077 is giving me the notion of expecting a kind of " AI:the next generation" version. again I guess their complexity can be dumb down via difficulty settings. I play death March from start when I first got the game. At start was hard after that was easy. But was good challenge still.
But I trust CD red has much of these points talked about already in their studio! That's my thoughts ! Thanks CD red for making cp2077!!!
What I would like to see ai being addressed is as follows
1. Morale system
• Weaker grunts easily feared stronger elite forces has stronger will and stay in the fight longer
• I like the idea of them running away upon seeing their members being massacred. In shadow of war this is in brutality skill. In that game it got a bit silly though how the orcs still comes after u even while half the stronghold are being massacred while ur riding a giant beast. It's like they haven't learned the lesson and doesn't react to the genocide.
• I support those who wrote about morale systems
2. Consequences and Reinforcements
• Strength and weapon tech accordingly to the group's ability eg militech weapons or homemade
• It's hardly immersive when nobody cares after u killed every being on the streets. Deus ex haha. And they didn't care even when I took human only train all the time. Military police gangs corporate hitmen should come after u.
• I really liked the system in shadow of war for killing their blood brothers. Maybe a kind of system like this. Maybe send out an elite Assassin after u or bounty hunter. Though interesting to see how CD red handles killing citizens street people
3. Random pop ups.
• Shadow of war orc pop ups is hilarious. I get they giving the impression of hundreds of orcs coming after u. Which is awesone But it's rather funny when u catch them spawning in the middle of nowhere while killing their team. Not too much illogical pop ups too please. Many times I strategize for half hour and made sure I killed off my enemies to isolate the boss and just to have orcs magically pop up from nowhere. Annoying haha
4. The ability to use their environment
• How many times have we climb up to a safe zone and enemies just can't get to u and they get sniped helplessly. I get it if their grunts but elite forces should handle themselves better. Stop me prancing around them
5. Sword fights or brawl
• Incapacitates enemies leading to non lethal takedowns
• Consequences later in game for enemy bosses of lethal or non lethal takedowns. They respect u or their "blood brother " goes after u shadow o war haha
• Enemies challenge u to a sword or fist fight. Non scripted.
6. Enemies using covers
• Animations for the vaulting and hiding behind tables sliding and ducking for cover. And done fluidly and quickly like a real person do
• They might not always pop their head up while shooting from cover. Blind shooting
• Some may go berserk and charge at u wildly from covers
• All in all v should not feel completely safe behind covers or up high in "safe zones"
• They should run immediately for cover after someone being sniped instead of just wandering around being target practices.
• Just as in demo ur partner lifted the car to prevent incoming fire maybe stronger enemies can do the same. Using their environments. Elites try electrocute u if uve stepped on water. Emp electronically disruptions etc. Bring out the big guns on u for being an annoying fly that bullys them. Non scripted. Counter these enemies by research and info gathering preparations.
7. Ambush and encounters
• They can ambush u or u can see them coming in the distance if u pay attention. In streets etc. Or ur net runner warns u of their presence.
• Surely the gangs will send out hitmen after all the killings. Or ur random killing spree. They should be able to stop u or u find it hard to get away to a degree. But able too if u try hard enough. Shouldn't be an easy thing to do. Otherwise bad guys might as well just commit mass suicide for not competent enough to get u
8. Adaptive
• Enemies adapt to ur fight style. Smoke u out from hiding spots and turn on night vision to see u in dark.
• I support the different fighting style for different factions mentioned. Also to those posts that touched on FEAR ai, them not being too smart without reason, and difficulty level in just raising the damage accuracy and too much lowering of health. Maybe less tactical from ais in lower difficulty. And less consequence for committing mass murder in lower difficulty. Or costs of items are higher in "death march" eg increase health augments. Using tech against v equipment jamming etc etc
9. Using traps and ammo
• Enemies are able to place traps in mid fight. Non scripted. Limited number of traps carried per ai. Random ammo count generated.
• Perhaps limited gun ammo per ai as well. So enemies do conserve ammo instead of raining down bullet hails into u. Unless its mindless cowboy grunts. Elites wait for u to pop ur head out. Unless it's their bunker where they've got an excuse to be unlimited. Eg turrets with limited ammo but unlimited while plugged into a box of ammo. Reloading animation of course .
10. Ai jobs
• Just like witcher as to the ai perform their roles according to day night cycle. Maybe certain missions ai perform specific things accordingly to the minute. Think the upcoming game the occupation. This allows for stealth play. Time specific eavesdropping and clue and resource gathering. Impersonation missions.
11. More consequences
• Being in the wrong place. shops behind counters waltzing into peoples home Managers office using their computers drinking their alcohol stealing their food bumping into people especially gangs randomly . Totally no consequence in deus ex. I took their credit chits and they just stare at u or shout hey n nothing happened. Holding out a grenade or gun ais should notice shouting "hes got a grenade in his hand!!"
• Robbing that palisade bank in deus ex.. jeez common my face was on every camera and security still didn't know who broke in. I walked out the vault door in front all cameras and security guards singing merry xmas and they don't know who dunnit. Wow.
And went back a 2nd and 3rd time no extra security measures no team of investigators or forensics. even left a big hole in the wall in conference room. And it's still there. Amazing.
• Logic logic logic
12. Ai partner not just for show
Who ever tags along should be of use as v is not a tank. Unless u augment to be one but at great cost of course and don't be annoying please. However demo shows great coop from partner ai. Great.
13. Pixel point accuracy. It can be frustratingly unfair haha. Maybe snipers and elites.
14. Cloaking and other abilities in general. I like enemies to use abilities we have ourselves but not with limitless resources. Smart use of cloaking. Not just for sake of it.
Anyhooo... in short. it's about diverse and smarter enemy ais. I think we all had it with ais which are such crash test dummies. An ambitious project like cp2077 is giving me the notion of expecting a kind of " AI:the next generation" version. again I guess their complexity can be dumb down via difficulty settings. I play death March from start when I first got the game. At start was hard after that was easy. But was good challenge still.
But I trust CD red has much of these points talked about already in their studio! That's my thoughts ! Thanks CD red for making cp2077!!!
Stealth was well done in the Hitman-games, but that relies heavily on world-geometry. So, parts of it might work to play stealth-characters (as seen when V crawls through the duct out of the room).
It's hard without a stealth meter at times u can't tell ur in total darkness as it doesn't look that in the game. And sometimes u think ur hidden and hello u stand out like dogs
Apart of stealth meter there shod be some mechanism allowing to look around the corner without being noticed. Otherwise we cannot talk about full stealth approach. And apart of regular leaning your head I'd like to see a camera implemented in a gun which gives you PIP on your HUD so you can shoot precizely from behind a corner without exposing yourself.
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I don't mind if one can't ghost/no-kill through the whole game but I hope Techie and/or Netrunner will bring real variations to the gameplay and not just some kind of option/dialogue to avoid combat. Which isn't bad in itself but I would be a bit disappointed if every stealth opportunity comes down to talking your way out of a high charged situation.
The last two Deus Ex games offered that: stealth takedowns, different/secret paths to remain invisible/undetected. For the story's purpose and quest design I can only understand it can't necessarily be done for every missions but at least for some hopefully.
The last two Deus Ex games offered that: stealth takedowns, different/secret paths to remain invisible/undetected. For the story's purpose and quest design I can only understand it can't necessarily be done for every missions but at least for some hopefully.
I have always liked playing a game using stealth, but maybe not in ways others are used to such as using a stealth device or shield..what ever. Guess it's kind of in the blood as it were, so I addressed this issue in a previous thread with my response of...
"I like stealth...stealth is good. Now if i could just get my paws on a good bow with arrows equipped with explosive heads...the possibilities are endless. The mind boggles! "
Couldn't resist
Stealth is good...
"I like stealth...stealth is good. Now if i could just get my paws on a good bow with arrows equipped with explosive heads...the possibilities are endless. The mind boggles! "
Couldn't resist
Stealth is good...
Dual-wielding pistols without some specialized 'wares does little except to trade accuracy for double ROF and ammo capacity. Running on skills instead of wires, it might work out at the sort of close ranges that most combat IRL takes place at (under 15 meters), but even then only against one target at a time. If you have any need to aim though, then your only choices are 'wares or "Hollywood magic".... and the latter is rare in cyberpunk.
For melee though, dual-wielding is actually a cornerstone of many styles. If you went back in time and ran across Miyamoto Musashi, would you tell him that dual-wielding is silly and ineffective? If so, can I have your stuff after he proves you wrong?
For melee though, dual-wielding is actually a cornerstone of many styles. If you went back in time and ran across Miyamoto Musashi, would you tell him that dual-wielding is silly and ineffective? If so, can I have your stuff after he proves you wrong?
Heres my thoughts on this.
That said these skills should be dedicated thing. To address these I believe there's a few things that need to be thought out.
A)accessibility
If v could access all these skills eg dual wield samurai gun mantis heavy weaponry easily then it's just another shadow warrior or other fps.
How much access does player have to these skills? like witcher 3. U can access the skills but option of upgrading to better more refined skill tree.
But say under the tree skill dual wielding increase damage etc or dual wielding attack specific body parts or weapon steal etc . Arial strike now incapacitate instead of direct killing.
But my point is skills for each like heavy weaponry small weapons dual should be a skill. Like the master takes years to perfect. But in case of cp2077 were not going to wait years so it'll be under skill tree.
Maybe ability to poison dagger Heated tip Dual wild flaming sword perhaps? Idk
Some more question is would CD red separate dual wield sword skill and dual wield gun?
B) game difficulty
If the game is on easier levels then duh unlocks all skills easier but at highest difficulty u have to be careful to unlock according to ur play style.
Side note:-
Also a kind of chaos system to be implemented. U become a tank dual sword wielding machine the world should respond. Less lethal and intimidating skills a different playthrough. As the demo says ur actions affects the city around u so I expect this to happen.
Shadow of war did away to limit u so if ur using poison only u run into trouble with captains who have poison resistance etc
Which leads to my thoughts on..
C) application of weapons
Shot gun close ranged less effective as ranged crowd control
Assault medium to long range
Different bullet types etc etc u get the idea
So say a dual wield katana maxed out great fun in a crowded room but I don't expect to start deflecting bullets in a gun standoff . Unless maybe its titanium adamantium steel with ur booster inhaler haha who knows.
Single wield allows for activation of augments on the other hand maybe an energy shield or gun or sword. Etc etc
On side note :-
D) coop dependant
I'd like to see more coop with whoever tags along with u. So if ur dual wielding knife butchering machine. Make sure ur partner is long ranged. Stealth play. Maybe partner covers u while u get up close to target or stealing objective etc.
Example in demo the last boss when u take out the weak point causing the shield to be down maybe we could see ur partner take advantage as they have close combat skills and start knifing them or sniping them head shot if that's their ability.
Or they would call out to u to strike once they hack to jam their weapon. Non scripted. Vice versa partner should notice if u hack their weapon or expose enemies for them to hit them with critical damage depending on their skills .
So dual wielding if u had a energy shield in one hand deus ex remote hacking with the other.. so then partner can shoot the enemy?
Thoughts in the air for dual weilding
That said these skills should be dedicated thing. To address these I believe there's a few things that need to be thought out.
A)accessibility
If v could access all these skills eg dual wield samurai gun mantis heavy weaponry easily then it's just another shadow warrior or other fps.
How much access does player have to these skills? like witcher 3. U can access the skills but option of upgrading to better more refined skill tree.
But say under the tree skill dual wielding increase damage etc or dual wielding attack specific body parts or weapon steal etc . Arial strike now incapacitate instead of direct killing.
But my point is skills for each like heavy weaponry small weapons dual should be a skill. Like the master takes years to perfect. But in case of cp2077 were not going to wait years so it'll be under skill tree.
Maybe ability to poison dagger Heated tip Dual wild flaming sword perhaps? Idk
Some more question is would CD red separate dual wield sword skill and dual wield gun?
B) game difficulty
If the game is on easier levels then duh unlocks all skills easier but at highest difficulty u have to be careful to unlock according to ur play style.
Side note:-
Also a kind of chaos system to be implemented. U become a tank dual sword wielding machine the world should respond. Less lethal and intimidating skills a different playthrough. As the demo says ur actions affects the city around u so I expect this to happen.
Shadow of war did away to limit u so if ur using poison only u run into trouble with captains who have poison resistance etc
Which leads to my thoughts on..
C) application of weapons
Shot gun close ranged less effective as ranged crowd control
Assault medium to long range
Different bullet types etc etc u get the idea
So say a dual wield katana maxed out great fun in a crowded room but I don't expect to start deflecting bullets in a gun standoff . Unless maybe its titanium adamantium steel with ur booster inhaler haha who knows.
Single wield allows for activation of augments on the other hand maybe an energy shield or gun or sword. Etc etc
On side note :-
D) coop dependant
I'd like to see more coop with whoever tags along with u. So if ur dual wielding knife butchering machine. Make sure ur partner is long ranged. Stealth play. Maybe partner covers u while u get up close to target or stealing objective etc.
Example in demo the last boss when u take out the weak point causing the shield to be down maybe we could see ur partner take advantage as they have close combat skills and start knifing them or sniping them head shot if that's their ability.
Or they would call out to u to strike once they hack to jam their weapon. Non scripted. Vice versa partner should notice if u hack their weapon or expose enemies for them to hit them with critical damage depending on their skills .
So dual wielding if u had a energy shield in one hand deus ex remote hacking with the other.. so then partner can shoot the enemy?
Thoughts in the air for dual weilding
Hello to whoever cares, I loved everything about the demo except for the enemy AI animations. Everything else about the game looked so advanced technically. But the majority of the enemies just standing out from cover with their entire bodies exposed for multiple seconds at a time killed the immersion for me. With the amount of polish in other areas I was a bit disappointed with that. A good example of this is when the virus in the chip makes the deal go bad with the gang, all three enemies just stood in the same spot while V easily gunned all of them down. In real life people would scatter and run around like crazy if guns just started going off in pitch black. I understand there is a balance between realism and fun gameplay, but I dont find anything fun about shooting at enemies that are completely stationary majority of the time, and that dont seem to care about surviving at all. Also when V hacked the gang members gun to malfunction, in real life Im pretty sure the gang member would have just used the gun itself as a club to defend himself intead of just standing there while watching his buddy get stabbed. Small touches like that in the AI would go a long way in immersion. Also when you get the flank on enemies using the slow mo effect, they should be surprised when they see you and try to dive for cover instead of just standing still like a turret trying to still shoot you. I know its still extremely early in development, but that was by far the most lacking part of the demo for me.