Weekly Poll 10/1/2018 - The Gunplay!

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How do you like your CRPG Gunplay?


  • Total voters
    198
I’ve noticed.

Well, you’re the ”lucky” one here, so to speak. You got to argue mechanics; I’ve done nothing else lately than outlines of genre definitions and semantics. Perhaps I should start to demand turnbased combat and (like I did at a time) argue for its superiority on all accounts. ;)

Fun times.

I wouldn't call turn based combat superior but they're pretty good when they shots don't miss at 92% accuracy (Looking at you XCOM). Divinity Original Sin 2's combat is fantastic.
 
Yeah it's not turn based just the conversation itself. See https://forums.cdprojektred.com/index.php?threads/gameplay-depth-vs-complexity-vs-fun.31312/ for context.

You guys have been moderating forums long enough to know how this works. The only people here are the most passionate about the game and the company. I haven't been here for 3 years just for the lulz. Mostly, my role lately has been to balance out extremes, it would seem.

I'm pretty sure some trends have emerged, regardless of how long a discussion goes on. CDPR could probably close the book on this thread and come away with some neat ideas (not to say they will use any of them) despite the constant discussion.

Buuuut... we all like talking about mechanics so I'm sure it would crop up again.

I think he means that is was hard to moderate.

Probably not hard to moderate, but tiresome for them to read through. I think the "core" userbase has been hanging around enough that really heated discussions (with swearing and personal attacks) are uncommon enough to be nearly nonexistent. I think it's more that it gets frustrating repeating your arguments constantly (a necessity because the forums have new people enter, and those people obviously don't read all 300 pages of a thread), and it gets frustrating to read those repeated arguments for people who have already seen them a million times (I.E. Sard).
 
Probably not hard to moderate, but tiresome for them to read through..

Nah, I tend to enjoy the discussion, even if it is repetitive. I'm a super PnP nerd that way.

It was tough to moderate because otherwise reasonable people could and would fight the same fight ten times over ten months. I had to infract people I'd never normally infract.

Not really a hot button topic, per se, just an inevitable muttering session.
 
Nah, I tend to enjoy the discussion, even if it is repetitive. I'm a super PnP nerd that way.

It was tough to moderate because otherwise reasonable people could and would fight the same fight ten times over ten months. I had to infract people I'd never normally infract.

Not really a hot button topic, per se, just an inevitable muttering session.
Understood. I'm not privy to all of the reports you get behind closed doors, obviously. I'm glad it doesn't get too annoying for you guys. :)

Anywho, more to the topic, The Last of Us has been mentioned as an example of skills affecting combat in some way via weapon sway - because the game wasn't an RPG, it didn't have many other skill-based elements. However, Weapon Sway was a specific skill you could spec into to improve Joel's (the main character) handling of guns. It's hard to demonstrate because

If it can work in a major AAA title that sold (probably?) a boatload of copies (and got a remaster), it can work here. Naturally, I'd want many more elements than just weapon sway, but, y'know.

Whether or not you can even play FPS-like games is another story. Personally, my issue has always been motion sickness with first person cameras, and the demo did worry me a bit (VERY low FOV) so I understand where you're coming from. But at least that can be fixed with settings.
 
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I will stay with my "steady aim time" idea. It can even include huge aim assist on max rank of gun stat.

Suddenly i have an idea. It came from my thoughts about "everyone can do 1-2 precise shots until hands start shaking". Do you guys remember sniping in most of shooters? Where when you aiming with scope, your aim shaking terribly, and you have a "hold your breath" or concentration ability which negates aim shaking. My idea is apply the basics of this mechanics to aiming in general. When the player aims at the sight, he has a few seconds of stable aiming, after this time the sight begins to tremble. The amount of time of stable aiming depends on character's skill of shooting. The strength of the shaking also depends on the shooting skill. For example you have 0,5 or 1 second of stable aiming at low level of shooting skill, which increases to 5-8 seconds at high level. At max level of shooting skill your aim is always steady (or maybe you can even get aim assist).

Now, to details. If you moving and jumping while fight your "steady aiming time" is also spends but slowly. When your "steady aim time" is ended it needs to "recharged" which you can do by standing still or sitting behind a cover. It's not a cooldown, you can use your "steady aiming time" at any time. But how many "steady aiming time" is recharged, so much is spent. When you shoot from hip, you have bullet spread, which also depends on stats.
I just went back and re-read it. It's a very, very cool idea (going to quote it in a spoiler tag here if anyone wants to read it), but it's not enough in my opinion. There are other elements of character skill you could implement alongside it. How significant is the weapon sway after the "steady aim" period ends? That could be reduced with skill.

So could reload speed, and recoil (Recoil is not the same as weapon sway), and bullet spread could apply to more than just hip fire (Although I'd accept that if it wasn't feasible for aimed firing).

Again, love the idea, just want to expand upon it.
 
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Nice bait.

It was. It did lure the flock around (you included). And I hadn’t even started really fishing yet. ;)

::cries::

Remember the Gameplay thread? All 300 pages of circular argument?

I certainly do. That and many others.

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Anyways, I’m all out of ideas and arguments. Well, not really. Just of those worth anything to this discussion, the way it’s going.
 
It was. It did lure the flock around (you included). And I hadn’t even started really fishing yet. ;)



I certainly do. That and many others.

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Anyways, I’m all out of ideas and arguments. Well, not really. Just of those worth anything to this discussion, the way it’s going.
Let's talk about ponies.
 
BAH.

In PonyPunk2077, Ponies Shoot YOU.

 
Do you know that Mass Effect 3, which was labelled as an RPG too, had a lots of players who did not play the solo part, and that soldier class was the most played one in both solo and multiplayer.
And that Fallout 3 had people cry over the aim being influenced by your character's skills?

You don't think those people were the people normally playing FPS?

I'm about sure the C2077 gameplay video appealed to them, but I'll investigate a little to verify that.

So what? CP is supposedly going to be a RPG. Where action RPG systems fall apart is when they're designed to cater to both extremes. I'd argue failure here isn't with trying to provide elements of both systems. It's with trying to do it in a way where a hardcore FPS player and a hardcore RPG player, neither of which wants anything to do with game play targeted at the other, end up happy. You combine elements of both systems to... please people looking for elements of both systems. Doing it to please each extreme only leads to disappointment for both.

I'm not against real time gameplay (even if I prefer turn based/paused one on a general basis), it's just that many suggestions I see here only help those who can already aim, aka FPS players (still the shorter way to say it).
It's even more annoying to see that when I'm almost sure I've already played a game including shooting at things where you just switching targets in real time just by pressing a button (which should not be hard to include at all).

Like I said I cannot aim at all while moving my character (and in general I cannot do two things at the same time even outside of video games. I have never been able to do a dictation and almost cannot do mental calculation when someone else is telling me to).

With these two quotes I assume you're using FPS player to mean the ability to aim, move, think and multi-task well in a fast paced combat environment. I can only assume RPG player is meant to convey the opposite characteristics. Fast paced combat environment and RPG combat system are not mutually exclusive.

Back in the day I approached the isometric Bioware titles with real-time combat/on-demand pause more as turn based games, believe it or not. This did not make them more like a RPG. Nor was it required to successfully navigate the combat. It was a preference. The reason for this preference is a longer discussion :).

It's not the same case actually.
With some of the systems I see given here a marksman V played by me would be shooting far worst than a non marksman V played by an FPS player (again I'll use that term until you propose better), because even perfect aim doesn't help if you cannot put your crossair on your target to begin with.

It wasn't meant to compare character driven vs player driven game play. It was meant to compare action RPG game play with shooter game play. They both use action combat but action RPG's rely on character progression and improvement to push the combat in a certain direction. By pushing the combat in this direction those progression and improvement systems matter. The push needs to be big enough. Otherwise it's irrelevant and, by extension, the character traits are too.

Most of the above has been discussed to death. The point I was getting at is I'd rather not see multiple combat systems if the choices are purely character driven and purely player driven. I'd rather see the options be purely character driven and mostly character driven with some degree of player control. If that makes sense....
 
I'd add that the argument about a game being or not being an RPG is not relevant to this thread, and it's a silly one to begin with. It's clear that a handful of users here think (as much as I love said users) that a game is not an RPG if it does not have combat in line with classic RPG combat (turn-based, or entirely character-based). Their minds will not be changed, but if we must have that discussion, here's a couple places to do it:

https://forums.cdprojektred.com/ind...memorex-the-mechanics-debate-thread.10980698/

https://forums.cdprojektred.com/ind...ical-faithfulness-to-cyberpunk-2020.10981118/

But I 100% agree with you, Dingo, particularly about this part:

So what? CP is supposedly going to be a RPG. Where action RPG systems fall apart is when they're designed to cater to both extremes. I'd argue failure here isn't with trying to provide elements of both systems. It's with trying to do it in a way where a hardcore FPS player and a hardcore RPG player, neither of which wants anything to do with game play targeted at the other, end up happy. You combine elements of both systems to... please people looking for elements of both systems. Doing it to please each extreme only leads to disappointment for both.

This is what, I think, Su doesn't understand when she says it's impossible to blend the two sides in a satisfying way.

Yes, it's impossible to blend the extremes, as you said, but you can (and it's been done several times now) most definitely combine elements of both while preserving the fun.

The system I propose, and the idea Poison proposed, are both examples of precisely this.

What I do not expect to see in 2077 is entirely FPS combat, where character skill has no impact on it except for a magical +5 damage because you have 5 weapon handling. If that's the route they go, I'll be right there with the more hardcore RPG fans here to call them out on it.
 
With these two quotes I assume you're using FPS player to mean the ability to aim, move, think and multi-task well in a fast paced combat environment. I can only assume RPG player is meant to convey the opposite characteristics. Fast paced combat environment and RPG combat system are not mutually exclusive.

Not what I meant.
I'm actually good at a lots of action-RPG and action games. Just not any which implies to aim in real time (never really tried rail shooters, though).
In my mouth RPG player means any players outside those playing FPS.
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The system I propose, and the idea Poison proposed, are both examples of precisely this.

I don't remember a proposition making you a good shooter if your character is, only propositions which makes you a bad shooter if your character is.
 
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