Weekly Poll Question Friday Aug 24/2018: Cyberware Mental Cost to Character!

[Hoplite_22]

I don't really like the whole "cyber psychos" idea at all. the feed back systems such as touch, pain, movement etc are so integral and important to actually be able to move at all that if they are not there i'm not sure they would work as limbs.

even the very basic ones we have now the more feed back sensors there are in them the better they work.

this also glosses over the fact that some people will of had to have them as prostesis, are we really okay with the idea that people that need a leg replacing are less empathetic than people with both legs? that they are less human?

I'm really not.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

I don't really like the whole "cyber psychos" idea at all.

Of course you don't.

 

[Sardukhar]

this also glosses over the fact that some people will of had to have them as prostesis, are we really okay with the idea that people that need a leg replacing are less empathetic than people with both legs? that they are less human?

I'm really not.

This is a Cyberpunk 2020 thing - a Dark Future thing. It's not our time or our people.

In the Dark Future, Technoshock is a real thing. People are limited in their ability to adapt to the rapid pace of change, which by 2020 has been very very rapid indeed. Settled outer space colonies, full VR and VR immersion in the Net, cloned replacement limbs, cybersoldier wars, wholesale Collapse of the mightiest nation on Earth, commonplace human upgrading, Artificial Intelligence - full sapience.

And all in about 25 years. MOST people can handle it just fine. Some people cannot. But nearly everyone finds it more difficult to relate to other people in the Future.

We are seeing this in our world, today - this distancing of human contact, this virtual life.

In 2020, things that increase this sense of distance reduce your Empathy. Some cyberware has no Empathy cost at all! Some has very very very little, so you would see no difference in your empathy to others.

Some has much more and will serve to set you apart from what -you-think is Human.

On average, a relatively mentally healthy human will get a Cyberleg and will see -no- ( that is to say, zero) discernable change in their Empathy. None. For many, you could get BOTH legs and see little to no Empathy loss. Your ability to understand others, to socialize, to lie - all undiminished.

You are, at least by percentage, less human though. There is less human of you than there was before. But you don't feel or act any less human at this point.

Now if you keep going, keep adding, keep removing parts and changing yourself, well, in the Technoshock era, that's a problem.

It's a problem for people now, by the way. It's very jarring to lose parts of yourself or have parts held together with metal bolts. Some people are fine after a brief period, others less so.

And in the Dark Future of rapid, rapid tech, this can lead to a mental disease. It's not a de-humanizing-by-numbers, remember, it is a psychosis brought on by societal change that the sufferer has not adjusted to very well.

And again, it really varies from person to person. But, basically, a cyberleg - as empathic as ever, typically. Even both legs, quite common to see an unchanged empathy response.

Cloned limbs, for example, are also quite common. Personally I find a limb that was cloned from my now destroyed limb weirder than a machine replacement, but that's me. No empathy cost for cloned limbs.

 

[Snowflakez]

I don't think there should be any "warnings" or "levels" that would indicate when you will turn cyberpsycho.

The whole point of it is for you NOT TO KNOW when it happens. This way the player knows he takes a risk with every new piece of cyber, feels the anxiety before visiting a ripperdoc and never knows when he turns psycho.

There could be SOME warnings, but random for each player. Some sort of subtle hint, but still have a sense of "just one more modification..." with the mid and end results (dialogue locking and then outright cyberpsychosis) being achieved after a random number within a range.

So, let's say 15 modifications is the average threshhold cap (I have no clue how it actually works in the PnP, so this is just an example). Once the player hits, say, 10, the game selects a random number between 2-6, and at any point the player can go over the edge.

 

[Suhiira]

One thing to keep in mind, you don't risk cyberpsychosis with a handful of mods, it requires lots of them (or really extensive ones). And isn't anyone that would get that amount of mods already on the borders of being anti-social even before they get their first mod?

There could be SOME warnings, but random for each player. Some sort of subtle hint, but still have a sense of "just one more modification..." with the mid and end results (dialogue locking and then outright cyberpsychosis) being achieved after a random number within a range.

How about when your EMP drops to say half it's starting value you get a "warning" by way of even you start to notice you're starting to become a bit cold?

 

[Heart Of Dawn]

Diegetic warnings are best. The NPCs should see the signs of impending psychosis and act accordingly, whether it's by freaking out as soon as they see you (with either a fight or flight response) or by telling you directly 'you need to stop this'.

Jackie would work great as a litmus test as to how far you can go, not to mention any potential romantic partners.

There could be SOME warnings, but random for each player. Some sort of subtle hint, but still have a sense of "just one more modification..." with the mid and end results (dialogue locking and then outright cyberpsychosis) being achieved after a random number within a range.

So, let's say 15 modifications is the average threshhold cap (I have no clue how it actually works in the PnP, so this is just an example). Once the player hits, say, 10, the game selects a random number between 2-6, and at any point the player can go over the edge.

I don't want it to be random. Someone tells you about an awesome build for their V, but when you try it, you go psycho. That's not fair or fun.

Each aug could carry it's own 'psycho' cost that's hidden from the player, and the psychosis hits upon crossing a threshold. It would still affect different players diferently (e.g one might cross it sooner because they went for the 'ripper' mantis blades instead of the 'shadow' ones), but it's done in a deterministic fashion, not a random one.

 

[Suhiira]

Each aug could carry it's own 'psycho' cost that's hidden from the player, and the psychosis hits upon crossing a threshold. It would still affect different players diferently (e.g one might cross it sooner because they went for the 'ripper' mantis blades instead of the 'shadow' ones), but it's done in a deterministic fashion, not a random one.

In a way they do in CP2020, each aug has a "Humanity Loss" associated with it's instillation. By balancing this the game designer can make augs more, or less, of a cyberpsycho risk. And players (in CP2020) have a damn good idea of what the risks are.

 

[Heart Of Dawn]

Which is the better way to do it, absolutely. A well-informed player is a better player.

My point was simply a counter-point to Snowflakez suggestion of having things hidden from the player. If you are going to do that, don't make it random.

 

[Snowflakez]

Diegetic warnings are best. The NPCs should see the signs of impending psychosis and act accordingly, whether it's by freaking out as soon as they see you (with either a fight or flight response) or by telling you directly 'you need to stop this'.

Jackie would work great as a litmus test as to how far you can go, not to mention any potential romantic partners.

I don't want it to be random. Someone tells you about an awesome build for their V, but when you try it, you go psycho. That's not fair or fun.

Each aug could carry it's own 'psycho' cost that's hidden from the player, and the psychosis hits upon crossing a threshold. It would still affect different players diferently (e.g one might cross it sooner because they went for the 'ripper' mantis blades instead of the 'shadow' ones), but it's done in a deterministic fashion, not a random one.

I think it would be fun, but you're right, it might not be fair.

I'm just trying to think of a way to not make it too obvious. Would you, as a citizen in this city, be acutely aware of how far towards the edge you are? Remember, the point is that you're losing your humanity - if you are already beginning to lose it, how would you know? If you knew, you could just stop acting in that way (until a certain point and then its too late). Not that hard.

 

[Heart Of Dawn]

You could do that, with the player not seeing the threshold, but it should be a set limit that they don't know how close they are to, not a random one.

And this is why diegetic warnings are good. Without breaking immersion, they inform the player that they are getting close, without telling them exactly where the line is. No player should be punished for not knowing that there is a line that they are not supposed to cross as it will ruin any hope of completing the game, while as the character you wouldn't know where that line is.

This way players are informed about the consequences of such actions in advance, but are left left to wonder, 'well maybe one more wouldn't hurt'.

Here's the thing, you compare it to mental illness, and you are right. While the victim of such a disease won't recognise the signs, the people around them would. There's no way you could grow up in Night City and not know a cyberpsycho, one of their victims, someone who knows them, or even just see the aftermath of one on TV. The citizens, including V and Jackie would have at least a rudimentary of understanding that too many augs is bad.

The Ripper Docs certainly would understand this, but it would come down to each one as to whether morality, mortality, or money is more important.

 

[Snowflakez]

You could do that, with the player not seeing the threshold, but it should be a set limit that they don't know how close they are to, not a random one.

And this is why diegetic warnings are good. Without breaking immersion, they inform the player that they are getting close, without telling them exactly where the line is. No player should be punished for not knowing that there is a line that they are not supposed to cross as it will ruin any hope of completing the game, while as the character you wouldn't know where that line is.

This way players are informed about the consequences of such actions in advance, but are left left to wonder, 'well maybe one more wouldn't hurt'.

Fair enough. Players would eventually figure it out, but only if they actively looked for it online or were on a second playthrough.

 

[EngryEngineer]

I did 2 & 3, I think heavy cyber should affect V, but the game should prevent you from going to the point of death/complete break down. The first time you accidentally go over it would be kind of cool to see V meltdown, but that's the sort of thing that gets old quick.

 

[KakitaTatsumaru]

The closer to C2020, the better for me.

BUT, as there is a "but", then I don't want to lose any humanity at all for story-related Cyber, as being forced to is enough of a chore by itself to add the insult to the injury.

 

[Sardukhar]

But closer it is to C2020, the better for me.

BUT, as there is a "but", then I don't want to lose any humanity at all for story-related Cyber, as being forced to is enough of a chore by itself to add the insult to the injury.

Never read When Gravity Fails, eh?

Important enough to R.Tal's Cyberpunk to have it's own sourcebook.

Marid Audran has this exact experience. Very Cyberpunk.

 

[Tree_Fox]

I hate the idea of becoming a cyberpsycho or losing control of my V.

If it's an RNG thing, then even 1% can cause you to go psycho. Is that really fun? Especially when there are augments forced on you?

Imagine if a total of 1 million people bought this game. That means, statistically, that 10,000 people will go psycho immediately after getting their first upgrade. If they're anything like me, their copy of CyberPunk 2077 would be returned to the store, and they'll never buy another game from CDPR. I would hazard a guess and say very few people want control ripped away from them.

Which brings up another point. I know that if control is being taken away from me, why should I upgrade at all? I mean, that's not a lore-based choice I'd make. I want to cram as much metal into my character as I can. But, due to the threat of having control taken away, why should I use all the cool gadgets that CDPR has designed for me to use?

A possible solution to this is making it a feature on some of the harder difficulties. Or make it a toggle after picking the difficulty.

 

[Sardukhar]

I hate the idea of becoming a cyberpsycho or losing control of my V.

If it's an RNG thing, then even 1% can cause you to go psycho. Is that really fun? Especially when there are augments forced on you?

It's not. You assume incorrectly.

You have to burn through a LOT of Humanity before you can go cyberpsycho. In other words, no one of average mental health goes psycho from a cybereye. There is no 1% chance - why would you think that?

Takes arms, eyes, neuralware, etc. And your Ripperdoc checks as you put it in and warns you. He doesn't want to lose a customer after all.

In 2020 it's an aggregate process.

As for losing control being a reason not to take more metal - yes, that is part of the risk. There is no power without price.

This is Cyberpunk, not COD.

 

[Tree_Fox]

It's not. You assume incorrectly.

You have to burn through a LOT of Humanity before you can go cyberpsycho. In other words, no one of average mental health goes psycho from a cybereye. There is no 1% chance - why would you think that?

Takes arms, eyes, neuralware, etc. And your Ripperdoc checks as you put it in and warns you. He doesn't want to lose a customer after all.

In 2020 it's an aggregate process.

As for losing control being a reason not to take more metal - yes, that is part of the risk. There is no power without price.

This is Cyberpunk, not COD.

I don't think we'll find common ground here. I understand that the lore of cyberpunk is high risk equals high power. However, it is still a game. We should be able to use what the developer has given us, with no penalties. Like in Deus Ex: Mankind Divided. Start an NG+ and you can become a cybernetic god.

 

[Sardukhar]

. Like in Deus Ex: Mankind Divided. Start an NG+ and you can become a cybernetic god.

Cyberpunk 2020 -and 2077 - are not Deus Ex though. I don't want another Deus Ex nor is CDPR trying to give us another Deus Ex.

Also, Adam Jensen was a freak - basically he had a 1 in billions super power that let him load up on cyberware.

Everyone else was limited and had to take neuropyzene to boot.

Basically, Deus Ex is about satisfying your Power Fantasy. CDPR has said 2077 will not be about that at all.

Oh and Mankind Divided? Didn't sell so well.

Human Revolution was a lot better and no, you didn't become a cybernetic god.

Take HR as your (modern) guiding light, if you want to use DX examples.

"It's still a game" has been used to justify what are basically, "this would be fun for me, so please make it happen." Not how CDPR does things.

Doesn't matter anyway - CDPR has already said we are limited in cyberware.

 

[KakitaTatsumaru]

Never read When Gravity Fails, eh?

Important enough to R.Tal's Cyberpunk to have it's own sourcebook.

Marid Audran has this exact experience. Very Cyberpunk.

Minus V isn't forced to, only the player is for non roleplay related things.

 

[whitewolf2077]

3 & 4. Not sure about cyberpsychosis because the main point of videogames is to control a character and cyberpsychosis is the opposite of that. But there should definitely be social and stat altering consequences. I don't like the idea of equating augmentations to losing empathy. They shouldn't be related unless there's some sort of brain augmentation that requires altering it profoundly.