Weekly Poll 11/18/18 - Skills!

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What do you want to see for Skills in 2077?


  • Total voters
    112
For the smartgun thing, I think the way that should go for gameplay purposes is that the player needs to hold the reticle on a target until the gun "locks on". That should take a few seconds, maybe even 3 or 4 degrees of "lock", each of which gives a better percentage to track and hit the target. I supposed it could be augmented by some sort of "skill / perk" like Steady Aim that decreases the amount of time to lock on.

I don't think it should be "hold down trigger until ammo is depleted". There should be some semblance of gameplay challenge to using them.
Almost exactly like what I suggested earlier (a good number of times -- also found from the link in my sig). With the exception that I'd give the responsibility of locking and holding on to it to the player (for as long as he wishes, but only as long as the governing stat allows), and the hit-chance being a living metric based on the situation (movement, distance, etc) and how good the character is with the skill.
I think for smartguns, when you cursor over a target, you get a blip on it and an audio tone as long as you have the "aim" button up. Let the button go and the weapon fires. Kind of like how they are supposed to work in the PnP.

For added systems depth, how accurate the round is could depend on your weapon skill. Or where the target pip lands. Better skill = pip goes from torso to head to face to eyes, etc. Bypass armour, etc.

Autofire is tough to do with smart weapons, because you have to -think- fire for each shot. Instead, have it an AoE - a big hit zone or multiple hit zones on multiple targets.
For FPS gameplay smartguns are a bit difficult to model, as according to CP2020 they're a "to hit" modifier and that's (almost) entirely up to the player in an FPS. Maybe (as much as I hate to suggest it) a minor, say 5-10% damage modifier to represent more accurate shot placement? So smartguns are beneficial, but not overwhelmingly so.

For RPG gameplay however a short time (say a second) to lock onto the target works pretty well. Make the targeting reticle large enough you don't need pin-point aim but not nearly as large as we saw in the press demo. You can then have the pretty much autohit. I'm most definitely not in favor of the giant target area and hitting everything in it we've seen. I'm not sure the audio tone would work as it would be a "reaction time" issue, how long does the tone last? Do you have time to react to it? I'm also not sure giving smartguns pin-point accuracy (allowing you to bypass armor with face shots) is a good idea. Yeah they can lock onto the body, but onto the the left eyeball? Just use the standard random hit location charts in CP2020 for where each smartgun shot hits.
 
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Maybe (as much as I hate to suggest it) a minor, say 5-10% damage modifier to represent more accurate shot placement? .

Traitor.

You will pay for this.

What next? A subdermal grip boost to increase damage?!!!! MADNESS.
 
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2, 4, and 7.

Hard gates to me don't make any sense. "Oh, you only have 10 in this skill? Too bad, you need 11, so go grind some!"
Dice rolls make more sense, although the RNG aspect is not my favourite either.

Hard gates make no sense on gear either, but skills affecting one's ability to use gear is perfectly logical and therefore the best option IMO.

Some skills, like swimming that was listed as an example, are ones you either have or don't have, so there's no need for a percentage check. If you have the skill, you succeed; if you don't have it, you fail.

(The perk question I am not sure about. They can be awesome, awful, or meh, depending on what they are and how they are implemented.)
 
Some skills, like swimming that was listed as an example, are ones you either have or don't have, so there's no need for a percentage check. If you have the skill, you succeed; if you don't have it, you fail.

Oh, I think you can make a skill check for swimming. It could be -fun- to watch as your character struggles against the current...then drowns...followed by a cheery message like, "Better luck next time, Edgerunner!"

I'm playing a lot of Bloodborne right now, so I'm feeling a bit masochistic..

But, yeah, most skills can be tested on a scale towards a success value, I think.
 
Oh, I think you can make a skill check for swimming. It could be -fun- to watch as your character struggles against the current...then drowns...followed by a cheery message like, "Better luck next time, Edgerunner!"
Well yeah, if you're trying to swim in something other than a swimming pool. Like an ocean. Someone with basic swimming skill can survive as long as there are no strong currents and/or big waves, but only a highly skilled swimmer can survive in harsher conditions.
That could definitely be fun. I'm getting carried away here,
but you could even have a "minigame" against yourself where you'd go swimming in difficult conditions and see how long you last.
 
but you could even have a "minigame" against yourself where you'd go swimming in difficult conditions and see how long you last

I think some kind of active ( character skill boosted or affected of course) test for things we take for granted in video games would be a bit of a breath of fresh air. I don't mean regular activities but as you say, harsh environments that test otherwise automatic skillsets. Swimming, climbing, running, knitting, that sort of thing.
 
"Unusually cold weather is gripping the city, and your house's heating system has broken down. You desperately need to knit some woolen socks and mittens in order to have any chance of surviving in the outside world, but the cold and stress are making this basic task extremely difficult. You take a -90% to your Knitting skill. Good luck!"
 
"Unusually cold weather is gripping the city, and your house's heating system has broken down. You desperately need to knit some woolen socks and mittens in order to have any chance of surviving in the outside world, but the cold and stress are making this basic task extremely difficult. You take a -90% to your Knitting skill. Good luck!"

Plus all that cyberware? Suuuuper-ouchy on the skin in the cold. O oooh! Brrr! -5% for each cyberlimb you have!
 
Plus all that cyberware? Suuuuper-ouchy on the skin in the cold. O oooh! Brrr! -5% for each cyberlimb you have!
Good point!

But it can also work for the knitter, if they have no cyberlimbs, and very little cyberware in general.
"Preferring meat over metal is finally paying off; you are aware of how much easier you find knitting than those with cyberlimbs. You get a +10% to your Knitting skill from feeling superior and confident."
 
well considering this is an FPS and not a true RPG.. you have to consider removing elements from the RPG because you are adopting a different format.. that is not really compatible with traditional pen and paper mechanics. If this was say turn based RPG something like Xcom i would say go for it. but this an FPS. the only thing I would use weapon X skill. would be represented in a realistic way ... since aiming and shooting will be based of the players actual gaming skill. the only thing I would use a firearm skill for. is too represent how well the character handles the recoil of the weapon., How fast the character can reload the weapon. and how fast the character can clear or fix a jammed up weapon. the higher the skill the more familiar you are too operate and handle the weapon. as far as critical shots depends on weather your bullets hit vital areas of the body.

weapon failures like gun jams should be based off the reliability of the weapon and not the character. (for extra realism you could take into account of over heating your barrel and make it possible too cook off a round lols. actually teach the players some gun discipline LOL )

Damage and penetration values should be based of the calibre of the ammo. the gun is designed too use. ( some guns you can swap out barrels too suit different ammo calibres.) ( i suggest looking at wiki for stats on modern firearms and actually doing research into what different fire arms can actually do according too damage and penetration Values. )

the thought that a hand grip will add damage too the bullet your gun fires is asinine. saying the grip reduces the effects of recoil would be better.
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how well a character handles recoil should actually depend on the strength of the character. the stronger the character the longer they can hold down the trigger with out losing control of the weapon.

and some skills should be gated by the level of your stats. if you have low intellegent character you should not be able too invest in skills like computer scince or medical surgery or anything that requirs advanced learning. just like a character with low agility should not be able too take a free running skill.

Skills like running or swimming, should effect on how well you can swim and for how long you can swim and tread water. . a visual cue of character getting tired is that his swiming strokes become more sloppy the more tired the swimmer the more likely hood they will drown. tho I have never had any problems with just floating. I would say (going to use cyberpunk 2020 stats here) a person with 10 points in swimming is a master swimmer who knows exactly how too safely approach a drowning person with out being dragged under water with them. (skill perks anyone?)
 
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what could help to smooth output from rolls - especially at low skills rates would be suplementing skill roll with attribute roll as per something that Shadowrun II had as a skill tree, every knot apart from attribute meant increment in target number when you used attribute rate instead of skills. That way it was possible to do trivial things without exact given skill.

An example:
Barman
marksmanship: 2
reaction: 4
target number at mid range: 5
1 knot between Reaction attribute and maksmanship +2

without reserves

2 dices against 5(skill), plus 2 dices against 7 (attribute)
/ only two dices from reaction, 4 wihout any maksmanship but when the skill is learned these dices overide attribute dices
 
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I'd like to have stats influencing some skills (where it makes sense), but no RNG involved at all: put some mini-game and the higher is your skill the easier it is for you as a player (more attempts, more time to solve it, more advices from the game). I want to decide my own destiny, not a random CPU's calculation: if I'm good I do it, if I'm bad I fail it. If I want to get better at something, I need to train (improve my stat with exp (not realistic = not immersive) or simple practise (skyrim-like) and augmentations (neuroprocessor that makes hacking easier?)), I learn from my mistakes and next time I'll have higher chances as a player (not percentages). I'm playing an action RPG videogame, not flipping a coin.

It's so frustrating when a game decides that you fail no matter what, most people will reload until the outcome is favorable. I'd rather have an hard gate than RNG system.
 
hard gates only lead too mindless grinding. as player farms for his skills and attributes to be at a certain level hardly an excuse for game play. players are spoiled and unable too accept consequences, which brings me to my next question .. is there room for failure in a video game? mass majority of games default too game over please try again as the consequence of failure. often leaving player stuck until they pass said shit test.. for once I would like too see a game where the player has too live with the consequences of failure.. and what that story would look like.
 
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for once I would like too see a game where the player has too live with the consequences of failure.. and what that story would look like.

Agree. If abstraction in the game went too low (everything done explicitly by a player) it would be a click-fest and why to build any character then?
One of the RPG elements for me is "DESIGN of CHARACTER" - it is power gaming thing; where with first iteration character you study the environment (enemies and their tactics, weapons, locations properties etc.), realize what role you want to try there and with the next iteration if done well you should enjoy passing over mid tier adverasaries without a swet.

As for RNG, to make failure acceptable is hit on the nail's had, but there are multiple nails to hit to make it feel ok.
-for failure acceptance: If there would be some gain in failing would help. So why not gain more experience for failing then succeding. When failed character/player has already paid- wounds up to death, economic consequencies....

-desing of RNG: Another enhancement to RNG (assuming this is already non cheapo RNG) sort of hierarchical approach might help too. For example would you like to waste your best rolls on casual things and catch a tide of poor rolls when it matters?

-convergency approach to succes: I will fill it in latter if anybody requests- better keep the message short...
 
hard gates only lead too mindless grinding.

Not if the game doesn't allow grinding at all, in that case character cration with its stats really matters and is not just a starting point from where you grind up to lvl 100. In CP2077 it could be that you can enhance your stats only via cyberware (robotic arms give +2 in strenght, neuroprocessor +3 in intelligence etc.), but you cannot use too much otherwise you become cyberpsycothic. In this way you'll never be a master of all trades, or you specialize in something or you become a jack of all trades but master of none.

Don't get me wrong, I don't like hard gates, it's just that RNG for me it's the worst possible mechanic oppose to player's skill based on character's stat, if you fail, it's your fault.

P.S. yeah, I'd like to see failing in games as well, but real failing not awarded every time with loot/money/exp. It's the same when accepting quests, you think "worst case scenario I'll get some reward, let's do it", while it would be more realistic/interesting if you should think before accepting at all, if the NPC looks thrustworty, if the quest could put in you in unwanted danger and so on. I made a topic about this.
 
P.S. yeah, I'd like to see failing in games as well, but real failing not awarded every time with loot/money/exp.

yeah why not, but for most of time I will stay with this guy>

Julian Jackson: ".... I am really go out there and try my best... win, lose or draw - I am always the winner".
 
RNG or hard gating. RNG was designed for pen and paper rpgs. and I think there is a place for it Video game RPG's. Maybe not so much in a FPS . as for most FPS players the glory is in the personal skill of the player. most FPS are player Vs player and the success or failure is often factored by player skill plus or minus other contributing factors. and to go from that too Random numbers deciding the success or failure would be abhorrent too the vast majority of FPS players.
 
CP2077 is not a FPS, is a FPP RPG (hopefully immersive-sim-like). Skyrim, Fallout 3+ are the same genre, then we have immersive sims as Prey, System Shock, we have Thief, Dishonored, Dying lights... None of those is a real FPS, just FPP. And if we talk about FPS, if we take away COD, Battlefield, counter strike, SW battlefront and overwatch from the equation, we have a lot of only PVE FPS: wolfenstein, bulletstorm, rage, Far Cry, Doom, quake...

It's not about FPS players getting mad with RNG, it's just an unimmersive/unrealistic approach to role-playing.

X-com is a good example of great game with RNG (it's based on that and makes sense with its gameplay), but its authors never thought for one second to put an action gameplay. it's a turn-based strategic game.
 
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