Sheldon Skaggs

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rrc

Forum veteran
I don't know what you are doing, but I play every faction.
I am sorry that it had come out wrongly. What I meant was, probably your favorite faction is something else and that if you tell your favorite factions, I could probably tell three or more cards which are more valuable than Sheldon.
 
Actually, it doesn't say much. Harmony decks are build around using different categories. The problem with Dwarfs is that they are highly synergetic only with themselves, which makes it difficult to mix them with other races. Sheldon is the only good exception, which makes him a prime target for Harmony decks, with Gabor as an (expensive) backup. If there was a viable alternative, then Sheldon would see less play.

There are other dwarves to use which don't require handbuff cards. People use Sheldon because he is extremely strong.
 
There are other dwarves to use which don't require handbuff cards. People use Sheldon because he is extremely strong.

There is no better alternative. Not because Sheldon is (too) strong, but rather because the other dwarfs are too weak (or unreliable). Skirmisher is okay'ish for a 4p filler, but that's in a different league. Dennis and Paulie aren't tied to Dwarf synergy. However, those cards even rarely see play in a Dwarven deck, let alone outside of it. The lack of good alternatives makes the discussion moot.
 
There is no better alternative. Not because Sheldon is (too) strong, but rather because the other dwarfs are too weak (or unreliable). Skirmisher is okay'ish for a 4p filler, but that's in a different league. Dennis and Paulie aren't tied to Dwarf synergy. However, those cards even rarely see play in a Dwarven deck, let alone outside of it. The lack of good alternatives makes the discussion moot.

You left out the dwarf that buffs on each side and the dwarf that buffs on the left or gives a shield on the right. Its not hard to use some dwarves other than Sheldon if you want to but it's plain stupid to do so when Sheldon is such an incredible finisher.
 
He is working fine and doesn't need to be reworked/nerfed at all.

Sheldon has a raw ouput of 6:8 but with handbuff set up he becomes 10+:8. Same goes for Hubert, a 3:8 but becomes way over his cost with engine setup. For them to work you are forced into a low tempo play then hope the value burst is enough to catch up. The low tempo plays and required setups make their provisions reasonable. If he just casually put 10+ point without any set up then that would be a reasonable time for a provision nerf.
 
He is working fine and doesn't need to be reworked/nerfed at all.

Sheldon has a raw ouput of 6:8 but with handbuff set up he becomes 10+:8. Same goes for Hubert, a 3:8 but becomes way over his cost with engine setup. For them to work you are forced into a low tempo play then hope the value burst is enough to catch up. The low tempo plays and required setups make their provisions reasonable. If he just casually put 10+ point without any set up then that would be a reasonable time for a provision nerf.

It literally takes one dwarf buff to get 10 points out of him which you can just drop in the second round.
 

Guest 4339135

Guest
Sheldon is fine. Only 3 base power for 8 provision looks fair to me even with the handbuff.
Also he is not autoincluded in all decks, I never play him in my Scoia'tael decks. He's only autoincluded maybe in control or handbuff decks.


I think he's fine as he is. He's not a auto-include and its a very draw dependent card. Moreover, he's played in a handbuff deck only.


He is played in Dana, Eithne Control, Handbuff and in Brouver Trap Decks. Only elf synergy decks don't use Sheldon. And nearly nobody still plays elf decks in the current meta, so you can see that your statements are wrong. And again, I will explain it for you: to activate Sheldon is an easy thing, you only need him in your hand --> many other combos need much more preparation, I would say handbuffing isn't a real combo, because it's so easy to enable. And the next point is, that Sheldon can't be countered - only by Shilard - and when you play Dana then not even Shilard can counter him. Try to play Hubert in this meta, then you will see how hard it is to enable a real combo.
 
I keep repeating myself in different topics. It's again the variance. Sheldon is another high variance card, which is always a problem. If his strength would be capped, he can be better balanced and people don't need to have these discussions.

I find it impossible to see how Sheldon is not too strong when only one Agitator can make him 10 points (5 removal) for 8 provisions and he cannot be countered.
 

Guest 4339135

Guest
Handbuff is only true carry over if you let it happen. Do not drypass Handbuff decks, bleed them. Don't Overblow round one.
I mean Sheldon with 9 provisions is OK, I don't mind it. But 9 provisions and str 2 will make him bad as he was before.

Yeah, when you bleed handbuff decks in round 2 then your opponent gets card advantage. Many things have to fit together that this strategy will work well, in reality most of the time this strategy doesn't work and cost you the game.
9 Provision are better than the 8 in the moment, but I think 10 will be better. At the moment he is 6 for 8 in the worst case, absolutely no risk to play him
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I am sorry that it had come out wrongly. What I meant was, probably your favorite faction is something else and that if you tell your favorite factions, I could probably tell three or more cards which are more valuable than Sheldon.

I think NG is my favourite faction, but at the moment it's a hard time for NG. Which cards do you mean?
 
Because he brings massive points on the board, most of the time between 14-18 and he only costs 8 provision.

This statement depends entirely on how you're evaluating the hand-buff value.

Ithlinne is 9 pts for 11 provisions. She only puts 5 pts on the board when she is played, however. You could say Sheldon is a 14 pt card for 8p with an Ithlinne buff (7 body, 7 damage) but then you're saying Ithlinne is a 5 pt card for 11p. For the math people, this ends up being 19 pts for 19p. It's the same idea with an Agitator. Sure, your Sheldon ends up as 10 pts for 8p (5 body, 5 damage). You would also be saying your Agitator was 2 pts for 4p. Again, the absolute value here is 12 pts for 12p.

One could also say the hand-buff pts belong to the hand-buff unit. So Ithlinne is a 9, Agitators are a 4 and Sheldon is 3 + damage. If you look at it this way Sheldon + Ithlinne puts him at a 10. One Agitator puts him at an 8. It's not so impressive.

Practically, it makes more sense to go with the first view. For the simple reason the value output at the time of the card play is probably more important. Even in that case Sheldon isn't as amazing as you've implied because you have to play low value cards to make him good. As an example, double Agitator, Ithlinne and Sirssa end up providing 15 pts for 27p to make Sheldon worth 26 pts for 8p. Yes, Sheldon is insane here. Those other cards, not so much. Even here it only works out to 41 total value for 35p.

So you can see, much more points than an Old Speartip for 15 prov. does and the only condition to set him up is to have the card in your hand. In comparison to other high provision cards, like Regis or Zoltan, it's an easy thing to get the points out of him and there is no way to counter him or play around (only Shilard).

I think you're misrepresenting the setup necessary to make Sheldon work. Needing to place 4-6 other cards in a deck to make a single card work is a condition. So is needing an opponent card at a certain value to avoid losing value. So is drawing several cards together. Even playing low value cards to make a different card more valuable is a condition. Conditions abounds....

Sheldon is auto-included in every ST deck at the moment and one of the reasons why ST is such a strong faction.

Sheldon sees a lot of play because he fills a lot of voids in the ST faction. Nerfing a card over high play rates without considering context is a poor choice. Granted, it's probably what CDPR bases their nerf decisions upon. And reddit tears.... Explains a thing or two :).

And, don't get me wrong.... I could see arguing for a redesign on Sheldon. A simple provision/value adjustment isn't going to solve much though. They rarely do.
 
This statement depends entirely on how you're evaluating the hand-buff value.

Ithlinne is 9 pts for 11 provisions. She only puts 5 pts on the board when she is played, however. You could say Sheldon is a 14 pt card for 8p with an Ithlinne buff (7 body, 7 damage) but then you're saying Ithlinne is a 5 pt card for 11p. For the math people, this ends up being 19 pts for 19p. It's the same idea with an Agitator. Sure, your Sheldon ends up as 10 pts for 8p (5 body, 5 damage). You would also be saying your Agitator was 2 pts for 4p. Again, the absolute value here is 12 pts for 12p.

One could also say the hand-buff pts belong to the hand-buff unit. So Ithlinne is a 9, Agitators are a 4 and Sheldon is 3 + damage. If you look at it this way Sheldon + Ithlinne puts him at a 10. One Agitator puts him at an 8. It's not so impressive.

Practically, it makes more sense to go with the first view. For the simple reason the value output at the time of the card play is probably more important. Even in that case Sheldon isn't as amazing as you've implied because you have to play low value cards to make him good. As an example, double Agitator, Ithlinne and Sirssa end up providing 15 pts for 27p to make Sheldon worth 26 pts for 8p. Yes, Sheldon is insane here. Those other cards, not so much. Even here it only works out to 41 total value for 35p.



I think you're misrepresenting the setup necessary to make Sheldon work. Needing to place 4-6 other cards in a deck to make a single card work is a condition. So is needing an opponent card at a certain value to avoid losing value. So is drawing several cards together. Even playing low value cards to make a different card more valuable is a condition. Conditions abounds....



Sheldon sees a lot of play because he fills a lot of voids in the ST faction. Nerfing a card over high play rates without considering context is a poor choice. Granted, it's probably what CDPR bases their nerf decisions upon. And reddit tears.... Explains a thing or two :).

And, don't get me wrong.... I could see arguing for a redesign on Sheldon. A simple provision/value adjustment isn't going to solve much though. They rarely do.

Very well explained. Some people overlook the conditional plays/setup to make Sheldon buffed.
 

Gyg

Forum regular
I don't get the statement that handbuff is a carryover. By playing Ithlinne and Agitator you get 7 points in round 1 which is often less than a typical gold card. So you have bad tempo and is behind in cards. Also, drypassing on ST deck is what I want you to do - I can play my Agitator and get good value from him. Last thing is that not always there is a target for Sheldon to not waste the damage. Monsters yes and maybe certain Skellige but the other decks not so much. Engines such Tridam Infantry must be stopped long before you drop your finisher card. All in all you could up his provisions to 9 maybe but I think it is still not necessary. Gregor de Gorgon yes but you need to have an additional ping to remove the shield.
 
I don't get the statement that handbuff is a carryover.

By playing Ithlinne, you are splitting your points between a 5 strength unit and a 4 point handbuff. This 4 point buff carries over and can be used at a later time and even a later round. You are basically making an investment in one round to get a bigger return in another.
 

Gyg

Forum regular
Yes, but it is not free. I spend some of the card's value and I have low tempo on board. I can be easily bled and losing first round means my opponent would have the last say in the game, potentially removing Sheldon with tall removal.
 

Guest 4339135

Guest
This statement depends entirely on how you're evaluating the hand-buff value.

Ithlinne is 9 pts for 11 provisions. She only puts 5 pts on the board when she is played, however. You could say Sheldon is a 14 pt card for 8p with an Ithlinne buff (7 body, 7 damage) but then you're saying Ithlinne is a 5 pt card for 11p. For the math people, this ends up being 19 pts for 19p. It's the same idea with an Agitator. Sure, your Sheldon ends up as 10 pts for 8p (5 body, 5 damage). You would also be saying your Agitator was 2 pts for 4p. Again, the absolute value here is 12 pts for 12p.

One could also say the hand-buff pts belong to the hand-buff unit. So Ithlinne is a 9, Agitators are a 4 and Sheldon is 3 + damage. If you look at it this way Sheldon + Ithlinne puts him at a 10. One Agitator puts him at an 8. It's not so impressive.

Practically, it makes more sense to go with the first view. For the simple reason the value output at the time of the card play is probably more important. Even in that case Sheldon isn't as amazing as you've implied because you have to play low value cards to make him good. As an example, double Agitator, Ithlinne and Sirssa end up providing 15 pts for 27p to make Sheldon worth 26 pts for 8p. Yes, Sheldon is insane here. Those other cards, not so much. Even here it only works out to 41 total value for 35p.



I think you're misrepresenting the setup necessary to make Sheldon work. Needing to place 4-6 other cards in a deck to make a single card work is a condition. So is needing an opponent card at a certain value to avoid losing value. So is drawing several cards together. Even playing low value cards to make a different card more valuable is a condition. Conditions abounds....



Sheldon sees a lot of play because he fills a lot of voids in the ST faction. Nerfing a card over high play rates without considering context is a poor choice. Granted, it's probably what CDPR bases their nerf decisions upon. And reddit tears.... Explains a thing or two :).

And, don't get me wrong.... I could see arguing for a redesign on Sheldon. A simple provision/value adjustment isn't going to solve much though. They rarely do.


Ok, I try to explain it for you again because literally everything you said is wrong, maybe you will get it after that.
First of all: It doesn't matter how you count the points, because the way you do this doesn't work. Unbelieveable that I have to say this again and again --> the way you do count the points is without CARRYOVER!! You are buffing Sheldon for the crucial round 3 and in this round he is his full 14-18 points worth, because of the carryover. So the way you count the points is completely useless and by the way: 41 value for 35 provision is very good and this is without the most important thing --> CARRYOVER. Many cards don't bring more points than their provisions on the board. When you don't understand what carryover means, then I can not help you.

Second: I have to say it again --> It is easy to setup Sheldon, you only need this card in your hand and there is no counter against hanbuffing. And it's easy to put these '4-6 other cards' in your deck, because only the agitators work with dwarfs, Ithlinne and Sirssa and every other handbuff card is working with the other cards too and they are good cards without Sheldon, so there is not a single problem to use this cards. And most of the time you find a good target for Sheldon, every deck plays 5-6 strenght cards and in the current meta nearly every deck has a 8+ in the deck. To use low value cards like Agitators or Ithlinne istn't a problem, because you use them in a situation where you don't need the points. And it's manageable to play an agitator in round 1 or Ithlinne (5 points in round one is a solid play). When you would understand the game, then you could see this.

Last: I never said that I would nerf Sheldon because he sees a lot of plays. I think he should be nerfed due to the fact that he is too strong. And by the way: High play rates can indicate that a card is strong and easy to use, that's why Sheldon sees so much play --> he is very strong and easy to put in every deck.
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Yes, but it is not free. I spend some of the card's value and I have low tempo on board. I can be easily bled and losing first round means my opponent would have the last say in the game, potentially removing Sheldon with tall removal.


Oh boy, when you expect tall removal then you only boost him to 7. Is this so difficult?
And to play an Agitator or Ithlinne (which is a solid 5 point proactive play) doesn't cost you round 1. By the way: when you lose round 1 you could buff Sheldon for free when your opponent drypasses.
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And on top of what Restlessdingo32 was so kind to explain, if you are using agitators and ithline in early rounds, you have to be very careful with their low tempo, especially when you are going first in round 1.


To play one of these cards per round isn't a problem, especially Ithlinne is a solid play. And after some matches you know how to manage your buffs without getting a problem.
 
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Ok, I try to explain it for you again because literally everything you said is wrong, maybe you will get it after that.
First of all: It doesn't matter how you count the points, because the way you do this doesn't work. Unbelieveable that I have to say this again and again --> the way you do count the points is without CARRYOVER!! You are buffing Sheldon for the crucial round 3 and in this round he is his full 14-18 points worth, because of the carryover. So the way you count the points is completely useless and by the way: 41 value for 35 provision is very good and this is without the most important thing --> CARRYOVER. Many cards don't bring more points than their provisions on the board. When you don't understand what carryover means, then I can not help you.

What Restlessdingo32 is trying to explain is that the value Sheldon produces is : his 3 points body + the damages he deals. It is pretty logical and obvious...
In order to calculate his contribution to your game, you must put aside the buffs he received from other units.

Otherwise, it is obviously a bias calculation.
With Sirssa and Ithlinne buffs, Milaen becomes a 10 body who deals 4 damages for 9 provision points...
With Sirssa and Ithlinne buffs, a Vrihedd Dragoon becomes a 10 body for 4 provision points...

The fact is, any units can become deadly with these boosts. The counterpart is that you have to play some slow tempo or conditional units.

It appears that your problem is not only about Sheldon, but about handbuff as a whole...

I however agree on the fact that most of the time, Sheldon is really effective.
I don't think his cost needs to be raised, but a 9 provision cost for him would be acceptable. On the other hand, 10 or more provision points would be total madness...

But do you really think that the urgency is to nerf ST units when MO and SK have dominated the game for several months ?
 
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