Fairly disappointed leveled enemies are still in.

+
How about a varied but reasonable range of enemy skill & gear (lowly street punk vs military) and there's areas where one would simply get wasted by better enemy skill & gear and / or superior numbers? No level 99 punk and level 5 military

Learn what you can and cant do by death. We can still level and acquire better gear.
 
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Let's close this OT, shall we? :)

Let's! :D


How about a varied but reasonable range of enemy skill & gear (lowly street punk vs military) and there's areas where one would simply get wasted by better enemy skill & gear and / or superior numbers?

I'd also really like to see superior AI being part of that equation, and enemy level meaning jack other than it being an abstract representation of said skill, gear and intelligence.


Imagine engaging a bunch of lvl 5 street thugs.

You take out your lowly gun, aim for the head of one of these thugs, pull off a lucky shot and kill him instantly.
His buddies were probably busy playing dice, but the noise makes them snap to attention. They see their buddy dead and panic. Half of them think they're being attacked by another gang and run into their hide-out. Some realize you were the shooter and start firing back hipshots with crap guns that don't go anywhere. Others start scrambling for information on what's going on.

All in all, their reaction is unimpressive and you can probably walk away in one piece. You kill a few more on the way out.


Now imagine engaging a bunch of lvl 40 corp security guards.

You take out your lowly gun, aim for the head of their captain and pull of AN EXTREMELY LUCKY shot that manages to catch him where he's not wearing his helmet.
The entire corp detail is immediately on high alert and start looking for a target. Some of them spotted you taking the shot and start broadcasting you as the mark. The entire detail is honed in on you not five seconds later and take precise, trained shots at you with accurate weapns. Corp HQ figures out you're acting as a lone gunman with the local information they have. They sent in reinforcements and an armored helicopter for good measure.

You need to hightail it out of there IMMEDIATELY and are lucky if you get out of the sector alive. Taking shots at your pursuer's armor is more than likely to be ineffective.


That innitial lvl 40 corp security guard went down about as easy as the Lvl 5 thug since level doesn't determine much. No bigger health-pool there. The level did warn you that you were fighting a completely different caliber enemy who had different skill, equipment and reaction.

Then again... with the difference between street thug and corp guard that visually clear, I'll be asking myself why they'd even be showing a level in that example. It makes me worried that the only difference will be, that the corp guard is just a damage sponge with no further redeeming qualities over the thug.
 
Actually in CP2020 you got skill points (you could spend to gain/improve skills, and sometimes [at HIGH cost] base character stats) for completing missions, and nada for killing stuff. So the XP system has been added for CP2077 (for some reason).

And probably for the next edition of the PnP Cyberpunk RPG we know is coming as well. Me not like.
 
Let's! :D
I'd also really like to see superior AI being part of that equation, and enemy level meaning jack other than it being an abstract representation of said skill, gear and intelligence.

Yes. Military better tactics and gear. Dermal / tactical armour for higher health pool but not overkill. (maybe allowed for super bosses)
Like you said the force would swarm and the AI would be very tough. There should not be any punks better than a trained well equipped outfit. (like we see in some games at late stages where you encounter a street urchin that deals more damage then an early game soldier)

AI and weaponry should be the big factor in what represents 'do not touch'. (Not bullet sponge with same behavior) Boo to enemy level numbers!
 
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The fundamental issue that devs (and RPG makers) need to understand is that the xp approach makes sense in pen and paper games where you don't actually act out any of this stuff. But in a video game you quite literally can do all the things that your character does, so why not go for an actually believable and immersive system? The XP system is an aged relic that needs to be dumped as soon as possible.

I'd still like some measure of growth in my character when it comes to RPG's, and I still think that XP does that well. That feeling of growth is in fact essential to my own experience. I would resent a system where you can quite litteraly do all the things that your character does, straight from the very start.

I'd like my ability to wield a sniper rifle, to either be earned, or come with a trade-off for being very good from the very start, by being deficient in other things I still need to learn.


Actually in CP2020 you got skill points (you could spend to gain/improve skills, and sometimes [at HIGH cost] base character stats) for completing missions, and nada for killing stuff. So the XP system has been added for CP2077 (for some reason).

Now, that seems good to me! Doesn't need to be xp, but any other system by any other name that slowly awards me more skill would suit me.
And since we're allowed a pacifist run, I don't expect kills to be the only source of extra skill either.


Can I go shortly back to swooning over Fallout 2 (FO2), or the likes of the Original Deus Ex or System Shock 2?

In FO2, you could totally create a bad-ass sniper character straight from the very start, who could totally kill the final boss at lvl1. You'd just have to go about finding a sniper rifle and traveling the distance towards the boss.

Only problem was that you'd be deficient in other things that you'd be wise to learn in the course of a longer game, like being able to pick the lock on the room the Sniper Rifle was held in, or learning survival skills that'd allow you to travel long distances. Those skills would come from gaining the levels necessary to have points to invest in that. Not to mention that the Sniper Rifle itself would also require the necessary training.
Stats like agility were pretty much set in stone, but could be increased at a heavy cost.

You could also create an awesome smooth-talker who could avoid a fair amount of combat. The game would reward you for passing skill checks and completing missions with xp too, without needing to kills stuff for it. They'd just also be deficient in other fields they'd need to build up.

Your character would have levels and xp to signify that growth, but none of the enemies in FO2 had levels. They'd just look increasingly scary. It's an awesome system that I believe the Vampire Masquarade series had as well.


None of what I've read thus far has completely precluded the possibility of Cyberpunk 2077 from having these kinds of systems, so I maintain good hopes.
 
Well, the title should be pretty self-explanatory, but I'll elaborate a bit on that.

I was reading/watching impressions about the private demo and while most of it sounds impressive and almost unbelievably good, I couldn't help but notice how the press is pointing out that enemies are still tiered by levels and have their level clearly stated as a label close to their names.

I'm definitely disappointed by that, not just because arguments could be made that it's an immersion-breaking detail, but also because I genuinely don't think the game needed levels in the first place from a mechanical standpoint.
If The Witcher 3 is anything to go by, levels were completely superfluous there as well and they introduced far more issues that they solved.
They forced level-gated gear, they introduced a progressive unnecessary stat inflation over time for both the character and the enemies, encouraged item bloat, created nonsensical scenarios from a narrative standpoint (i.e. Wild Hunts general level six, scary big stone golem level 9, then followed by lvl 30 wolves and lvl 40 angry farmers with pitchforks come to mind).

A progression system where you just unlock talents/improve skills without any need for levels would have been so much a better fit for Cyberpunk, especially considering how the pen&paper ruleset was notoriously a level-less one.

Agreed on all accounts. The most common defense we heard in favor of the first-person perspective was immersion. It sparked entire debates that got a thread shut down. Now, that same immersion is ignored to force what looks like it'll gate various pieces of gear and equipment. Which means we're one step closer to Geralt's oven mitts in a game that's all about style.

Cyberpunk 2020 ignoring levels is the biggest factor. That means 2077 went out of their way to feel gear/enemy levels were necessary. Skyrim already laid the right way out for them. Do the thing; get better at the thing.
 
I'm not sure that levels will necessarily work the same way as TW3 at all. All of V's gear, from what we saw in the demo also has a level. It's possible that overall character level is not just a flat representation of that character's overall abilities, HP pool, etc., but rather a reflection of their skill level and the level of their gear. More like a "threat level".

I do have to agree that I'm not a fan of leveling up. Much as I may not hate it, I feel software games would be much better served by focusing on ways of augmenting my character's abilities and options, rather than simply ramping up numerical values over the course of the game.
 

Tuco

Forum veteran
I'm not sure that levels will necessarily work the same way as TW3 at all. All of V's gear, from what we saw in the demo also has a level.
...But that's exactly how it worked in TW3, as well?
And that would be "not particularly well", I may add. Which is precisely where the concerns come from.
 
This is a RPG, you need to level up, get better gear to progress. this isn't Call of Duty.

Why do I need to level up in an RPG? Is that the definition of a roleplaying game? Numbers plopping out of enemies, getting gear with higher numbers, so higher numbers plop out, so that higher numbered enemies lose their high numbered HP faster then with weapons that would let them plop out lower numbers?

I can only speak for myself but the important part, no matter if it's Baldurs Gate or a japanese RPG was always the stories, the characters and decisions. Playing a role in a different world. Levels and Stats are just tools but not the defining factor. When I see something like Cyberpunk and how it's presented, I would rather see a it being a true shooter. It looks off to see levels and it looks off to see how numbers fly out of a body. We have reached an era where classic gameplay isn't the only possible way to make an RPG. I think the gameplay in Mass Effect should've been more like "Call of Duty" (or a better shooter) and I think the same for Cyberpunk 2077. It's the same with vehicles btw.. If you feature driving in a game, then I expect you not to make it as in Micro Machines but as same as good as in present race games. I still like classic RPGs and I do like classic gameplays, including the good old "magical axe +3" but apart from something like Borderlands I never understood why you wouldn't ditch the old level and stats system for roleplaying games like Mass Effect or Cyberpunk.
 

Tuco

Forum veteran
Numbers flying off bodies are not a real concern, by the way.
They already confirmed you'll be able to turn them off.

Still, are the core mechanics underlying the system that concern me. If I shoot someone in the head, I expect one or two bullets to be enough unless he has an helmet or some sort of cybernetic reinforcement.
I absolutely do not want to see a naked street thug surviving five headshots in a row (or worse) only because he's level 20 and my gun is level 5.
 
Still, are the core mechanics underlying the system that concern me. If I shoot someone in the head, I expect one or two bullets to be enough unless he has an helmet or some sort of cybernetic reinforcement.
I absolutely do not want to see a naked street thug surviving five headshots in a row (or worse) only because he's level 20 and my gun is level 5.

I agree, my hopes are the same. I did find Witcher on Death March sufficiently lethal, though - and I'm sure 2077 will get "realism" mods ASAP.

Still a mass-market RPG and that means levels and HP and level gating. It stings a bit, but it does stand beside such tremendous glory - the writing, the world, the characters, etc.

Presuming the levels do affect HP.
 
It'll be interesting to see what levels actually impact. Hopefully if it does impact HP, it's to a very limited degree. Would be very happy if it more effect equipment, abilities and AI ... but that's much harder to code and balance than sticking on an extra 2000 HP.
 
I'd be okay with a higher level unlocking you the option out of several to - let's say - wear a better grade armor weave in your augmented epidermis, to increase your healthpool.

I'd definitely be okay with a discerning expenditure of points earned by leveling up, allowing you to wear the same health-boosting skin graft. That is, opposed to investing those same points into another skill.

A higher level automatically giving you more HP is a slippery slope towards what I - and others like me - would be disappointed by: trite levelgating.
 
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It'll be interesting to see what levels actually impact. Hopefully if it does impact HP, it's to a very limited degree. Would be very happy if it more effect equipment, abilities and AI ... but that's much harder to code and balance than sticking on an extra 2000 HP.
We all know how levels worked in their last game, there's not much room for interpratation IMHO, in particular after what the press said about perks increasing weapons' DMG, exactly like in TW3.

Here we say: "3 hints are an evidence". We have more than 3 hints now.
 
We all know how levels worked in their last game, there's not much room for interpratation IMHO, in particular after what the press said about perks increasing weapons' DMG, exactly like in TW3.
We also know how ranged combat worked in the last game, looks like it's changed a bit between games. :shrug: I agree it's more likely than not similar, but IMO it's better to wait for more info than worry about it. Worrying only makes it so you get hurt twice.

On the other hand of your three bits of evidence, I would point out that last year weapons did not appear to have levels, and I haven't heard anything contradicting that yet.
 

Guest 4211861

Guest
More like a "threat level".

I am completely OK with that for Cyberpunk, it seems like something that world would ask for (an actual number to indicate threat, since so much revolves around raw lethality in that world).

But for Witcher games it should be based on categories, with the actual level the game engine uses is never shown, as in: peasant with hatchet is threat level "LOL", while a mature dragon is threat level "Just stay home".

Excuse my informal communication style.
 
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I am completely OK with that for Cyberpunk, it seems like something that world would ask for.

I'd disagree.

You're right that the monsters of the Witcher Universe needed the rating. You're unfamiliar with how powerful they are after all. A vampire might look like a peasant woman, but the former is far more likely to fuck you up if you start swinging. You need a threat level (though I'd ask myself how the Vampire managed to appear as unassuming as a peasant woman.)


I'm not so sure about the Cyberpunk Universe though.

If I see a squad of armoured corp guards wielding automatic rifles, standing around a tank with copters flying overhead, next to a rabble of street thugs wielding crowbars in their undies, I have a fairly good idea which of the two groups is going to give me more trouble and why. I don't need a threat level to tell me that.

The only exception here might be the amount of hidden cyberware an enemy might be packing below their skin or skill they might possess, but if the street thugs in their underwear are somehow capable of transforming into a Gundam cyberninja, then I'd say they deserve to get the jump on me. Well played. I'll reload the game after they turn me into a bloody pulp and will try to figure out what the hell their story is.

This is about visual storytelling. I feel CDPR should be capable of that without plonking a number above their head.
 
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I think you make a pretty fair point. I see no problem with Character Levels. It gives people a good sense of progression, however enemy levels make less sense to me. For example in a fantasy setting one giant rat shouldn't be much stronger than another of the same kind unless it is "special". The same pretty much would go for Cyberpunk. Nomads are all armed for example they all know how to defend themselves, but their strength is mostly in their numbers so on average they should be pretty identical. However aside from that enemies strength should be based on their stats and augmentations unless they're special just as a general rule. Making them get harder just because you level up makes less sense. For example if you become level 100 there is no reason all giant rats should now be level 100 so that one rat can eat a whole village now.
 
Leveled enemies are definitely not something I'd love but as long as it fits the bigger picture of the RPG mechanics and doesn't break the immersivity too much I can live with that. But what I would really HATE are absurd bulletsponges like in The Division. I was sooo hyped for that game but once I saw that disguisting thing in a gameplay video it was an instant deal breaker for me. This concern is probably the only reason why I hesitate to preorder.
 
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