Weapon sights realism?

[slagman5]

Hello, in this little snippet of the gameplay preview:

I can't tell if that red dot on the optic is just a reflection of something in the environment, or if that's the red dot you would use for aiming. I would guess it's the red dot used for aiming because for the game to render real-time reflections of the environment on the optics would be kind of crazy to be honest, lol. Well, I just want to comment that the aiming dot on red-dot optics are projected in a way where it's zero parralax, meaning that no matter what angle you look through it, the red dot will kind of "stick" to the actual point of impact. So when aimed down like that in a low-ready position, you really shouldn't be able to see a dot at all since the point of impact isn't within that window from that point of view. Basically the dot acts like a projected laser dot, but it's only visible to you.

To further explain what I mean, once you aim the weapon to where it's pointed at something outside of the optic window, the dot goes outside of that visible window as well. Does that make sense? If there's still any confusion, please ask any questions and I'll be happy to answer it...

But as a gun guy myself, being able to see the aiming dot or reticle when the gun is pointed away like that as if the aiming dot or reticle is stuck to the glass is one thing in a lot of first-person games that bug me since I know that's not how it is.

 

[Rawls]

Yeah I think it's used for aiming. However, it may be optional since almost everything in the Witcher 3 HUD was, and Marcin Momot confirmed that HUD items like numbers popping up to show damage were toggleable.

 

[Guest 4211861]

yeah I know, it's not realistic

but maybe they have other types of sights that don't have this problem

or maybe someone will make a "correct sights" mod

 

[Cyphien]

Nice catch.

Are there games that implement parallax tho? Is the effect worth the processor time?

 

[Cybunknymph]

Big fan of guns here also and have used that kind of sight many times before, I got to a point where I didn't care to use the sight after a while and kinda saw it as just a fancy add on that wasn't needed. It's like a cheat or training wheels that works really well IMO. It kinda helps at first, but it's not good to become reliant on it especially IRL. In a game it's very different and I agree sights absolutely have to be implemented correctly. I am all for various sights in the game, but anyone using this type of sight in the game will most likely end up barely using it or forgetting it's there just like real life.

Still a very good point to bring up for the devs who may end up reading this.

I hope there are really impressive sights that include lasers or such only seen by your character based on body/eye mods. Something akin to night vision and IR sights, but more impressive because your enemies won't have the same "night vision".

 

[Guest 4211861]

I hope there are really impressive sights that include lasers or such only seen by your character based on body/eye mods. Something akin to night vision and IR sights, but more impressive because your enemies won't have the same "night vision".

I'm sure CDPR has some crazy stuff in the works, but I just use the clearest sights I can get, oftentimes it's the iron sights, if they're tall and thin, like what's on the SCAR and the open design of some AK sights.

 

[Cybunknymph]

I'm sure CDPR has some crazy stuff in the works, but I just use the clearest sights I can get, oftentimes it's the iron sights, if they're tall and thin, like what's on the SCAR and the open design of some AK sights.

If you are proficient with iron sights then anything else is a walk in the park.

 

[slagman5]

Nice catch.

Are there games that implement parallax tho? Is the effect worth the processor time?

It doesn't have to actually simulate it, simply make the dot go away when the sight is not up. It's so easy to do, in fact, even a mod gun and sight for Fallout 4 had this. And if you play Ground Branch, they have it properly simulated as well.

Post automatically merged: Jun 12, 2019

Big fan of guns here also and have used that kind of sight many times before, I got to a point where I didn't care to use the sight after a while and kinda saw it as just a fancy add on that wasn't needed. It's like a cheat or training wheels that works really well IMO. It kinda helps at first, but it's not good to become reliant on it especially IRL. In a game it's very different and I agree sights absolutely have to be implemented correctly. I am all for various sights in the game, but anyone using this type of sight in the game will most likely end up barely using it or forgetting it's there just like real life.

Still a very good point to bring up for the devs who may end up reading this.

I hope there are really impressive sights that include lasers or such only seen by your character based on body/eye mods. Something akin to night vision and IR sights, but more impressive because your enemies won't have the same "night vision".

If you're talking about shooting on a flat range, then yes, iron sights are fine. But once you're shooting and moving, shooting from multiple positions, etc. optics become increasingly critical.

The problem with iron sights is that you need to line 3 things up at once to accurately make the shot. I know what you're asking: "3 things? don't you mean 2? The rear sight and the front sight?" No, I didn't mis-type, you have 3 things that have to line up consistently to have a consistent point of impact. The first two are the obvious ones, the rear and the front sights. The third is your eye relief. If you don't maintain consistent eye relief with iron sights, your point of impact will shift. And here is where it becomes complicated. Trying to line up the two sights while moving, especially moving quickly is already hard, incorporating the correct eye relief while moving quickly is near impossible since your moving posture and stationary shooting posture is different. Well, it SHOULD be different if you're shooting correctly, lol.

And then there are the multiple positions. When changing quickly between off-hand, kneeling, and prone your eye relief will also shift. To take the time to adjust this when bullets are flying toward you isn't ideal. Can it be done? Of course, that's why I also have backup iron sights on my firearms even if they have an optic equipped. I'm not saying they are useless, but optics definitely offer up a significant advantage over iron sights.

Just my opinion.

 

[AsadaShino0821]

In the real world, you see that optical sight (can be switched), when you take out the gun, it shows that it is in preparation, so it is very reasonable to drive it. (This game is not realism, no need to design can switch options)

Post automatically merged: Jun 12, 2019

You want realism, please go to play Escape from Tarkov

 

[slagman5]

In the real world, you see that optical sight (can be switched), when you take out the gun, it shows that it is in preparation, so it is very reasonable to drive it. (This game is not realism, no need to design can switch options)

Post automatically merged: Jun 12, 2019

You want realism, please go to play Escape from Tarkov

No offense bud, but I think you're completely misunderstanding what I'm talking about.

 

[Suhiira]

The problem with iron sights is that you need to line 3 things up at once to accurately make the shot.

Four.
The target.

That said, having spent around 50 years shooting (got my first BB rifle when I was about 10) rarely does a change in firing position (standing to kneeling for instance) make more then a few cm difference in accuracy even at 500m (and less at closer ranges). So unless you're shooting competition (or a sniper) it's really not much of a factor,

While various types of sights and scopes have their uses most are VERY specific in utility. A high power scope is near critical at extreme ranges (750m+) but an absolute liability at close quarters. That's the thing most folks forget, or are unaware of. All these fancy sights gamers and arm-chair-commandos tend to think are essential have limitations.

 

[slagman5]

Four.
The target.

That said, having spent around 50 years shooting (got my first BB rifle when I was about 10) rarely does a change in firing position (standing to kneeling for instance) make more then a few cm difference in accuracy even at 500m (and less at closer ranges). So unless you're shooting competition (or a sniper) it's really not much of a factor,

While various types of sights and scopes have their uses most are VERY specific in utility. A high power scope is near critical at extreme ranges (750m+) but an absolute liability at close quarters. That's the thing most folks forget, or are unaware of. All these fancy sights gamers and arm-chair-commandos tend to think are essential have limitations.

Eh, I've seen changes greater than that in more "dynamic" shooting situations. But hey, if you're good at something stick with it right?

But obviously you need the right equipment for the right weapon and situation, like I wouldn't put a high magnification scope on a pistol-caliber SMG or a SBR made for close quarters. My general purpose rifle has an Aimpoint red-dot and a magnifier that flips in and out of the way depending on the need as well as back-up iron sights. I find this to be the most versatile setup...

And everything has their limitations, including iron sights. Doesn't make optics any less useful. That's why you would pretty much never see someone in special forces still rocking only iron sights on their main battle rifles. At the same time, you won't really see them with only optics either. They usually have both. And it's for good reason, you never know if your optic can go down, the irons are invaluable as a backup when your life depends on it...

 

[Cybunknymph]

Eh, I've seen changes greater than that in more "dynamic" shooting situations. But hey, if you're good at something stick with it right?

But obviously you need the right equipment for the right weapon and situation, like I wouldn't put a high magnification scope on a pistol-caliber SMG or a SBR made for close quarters. My general purpose rifle has an Aimpoint red-dot and a magnifier that flips in and out of the way depending on the need as well as back-up iron sights. I find this to be the most versatile setup...

With all of your posts, I can't tell if you are talking about real life or just video games. (I'm thinking RL)

If your talking about games then most people got me beat, I'm not into FPS games since motion sickness is real.
Buuut shooting IRL is very different than games and I am grateful I have more experience with that than just games.

IRL any optics are better optics.
and IRL I've spent a lot of time shooting in all sorts of "dynamic" ways. With all sorts of weapon systems and optics.

There is a point you get to where shooting is like second nature. At least, with a rifle. (Samurai used to insist on this idea that the sword would become one with your arm, like an extension of it. Rifles can be the same way.) The most beneficial shooting you can do is shooting where you are not reliant on sights IMO. Something where reaction time is crucial with a focus on clearing malfunctions and reloading.

It's all dependent on how far away your target is and reaction time also.
If your shooting in a CQB environment, or your target is 30-50 yds away, and you can't hit them without looking into your sights then you could easily come down with a bad case of death. Optics really help and I agree with you, but I always found myself reverting back to instinct and knowing my weapon even with fancy sights on my it.

If you're talking about shooting on a flat range, then yes, iron sights are fine. But once you're shooting and moving, shooting from multiple positions, etc. optics become increasingly critical.

And then there are the multiple positions. When changing quickly between off-hand, kneeling, and prone your eye relief will also shift. To take the time to adjust this when bullets are flying toward you isn't ideal. Can it be done? Of course, that's why I also have backup iron sights on my firearms even if they have an optic equipped. I'm not saying they are useless, but optics definitely offer up a significant advantage over iron sights.

I totally agree. Becoming reliant on them is a bad habit tho IMO. What happens when conditions are not like your training, or sights get damaged/bumped a bit? One of the worst things to do to a sniper is slap the hell outta their sights.

 

[SigilFey]

I can't tell if that red dot on the optic is just a reflection of something in the environment, or if that's the red dot you would use for aiming. I would guess it's the red dot used for aiming because for the game to render real-time reflections of the environment on the optics would be kind of crazy to be honest, lol. Well, I just want to comment that the aiming dot on red-dot optics are projected in a way where it's zero parralax, meaning that no matter what angle you look through it, the red dot will kind of "stick" to the actual point of impact. So when aimed down like that in a low-ready position, you really shouldn't be able to see a dot at all since the point of impact isn't within that window from that point of view. Basically the dot acts like a projected laser dot, but it's only visible to you.

This is the future. The parallax effect is a feature.

#AttitudeIsEverything

(...)

 

[northrop]

I'm always blown away by gun enthusiasts and their in-game expectations/requirements.

You never hear from people that race cars say "wow, I really hope this upcoming RPG video game will authentically simulate how cars behave" or from architects "this building's structure isn't optimal, no-one would design space like that" etc.

....and then there are gun enthusiasts.... "oh hey... this red dot is inaccurate!!! fix it!!111!!1"

lmao.

I mean, I get it.. but.. yeah

 

[SKLAAAA21]

I'm always blown away by gun enthusiasts and their in-game expectations/requirements.

You never hear from people that race cars say "wow, I really hope this upcoming RPG video game will authentically simulate how cars behave" or from architects "this building's structure isn't optimal, no-one would design space like that" etc.

....and then there are gun enthusiasts.... "oh hey... this red dot is inaccurate!!! fix it!!111!!1"

lmao.

I mean, I get it.. but.. yeah

Perhaps this is due to the fact that the weapon is directly in front of the face and more noticeable.

 

[Suhiira]

I'm always blown away by gun enthusiasts and their in-game expectations/requirements.

A lot of that has to do with gamers that spread false, and sometimes outright dangerous information.
Or the political lefts obsession with "assault weapons", "high capacity magazines", etc.

Both groups tend to do more harm then good. I don't recal ever hearing of a car racing game fan trying to tell Ford how to design cars or demand changes to traffic laws.

 

[Cybunknymph]

These points are very valid though. Just like how Maximum Mike did his own research on weapons, CDPR has to do the same. I'm pretty sure they have and everyone wants the weapons and their parts to function as close to reality as the game can allow. If there are problems with the sights it's great that we have a forum to bring it up in, so that it may get fixed.

But we don't really even know if it is an issue yet. There are going to be a lot of things that piss people off when the game drops and we should still voice our concerns so that things can get refined in the next Cyberpunk addition to 2077 or any expansions.

There are already a few things about the recent demo (that we have only read about) that have me giving mad side-eyes.

The gun topic is always a tense one because shooting guns in game is very different than real life. Most of the anti gun-talk is based on fear from what is portrayed in movies and games, when really being able to shoot a gun is just a good skill to have. You know, just in case you have to protect yourself or someone you love...or if you need to kill and eat a something in a survival situation. It's much more complicated than that and I do not want this thread to go there, but you get the point.

I really don't like games that glorify killing or war because it is so different IRL and it gives people a false idea of the power of weaponry and the fragility of bodies. These players that get shot many times in game only get bummed out and the first thing they need to do afterward is find a med kit. IRL if they barely get grazed or like a pinky toe size of flesh removed by a bullet it could mean incapacitation.

Cyberpunk is a game that has all sorts of dangerous stuff in it, and I am looking forward to the crazy weapons and the futuristic take on what can be done with them, but it's still just a story experience. I am super glad CDPR is taking it very seriously, but I am most looking forward to the story aspect of the game coming from great story tellers.

 

[slagman5]

With all of your posts, I can't tell if you are talking about real life or just video games. (I'm thinking RL)

If your talking about games then most people got me beat, I'm not into FPS games since motion sickness is real.
Buuut shooting IRL is very different than games and I am grateful I have more experience with that than just games.

IRL any optics are better optics.
and IRL I've spent a lot of time shooting in all sorts of "dynamic" ways. With all sorts of weapon systems and optics.

There is a point you get to where shooting is like second nature. At least, with a rifle. (Samurai used to insist on this idea that the sword would become one with your arm, like an extension of it. Rifles can be the same way.) The most beneficial shooting you can do is shooting where you are not reliant on sights IMO. Something where reaction time is crucial with a focus on clearing malfunctions and reloading.

It's all dependent on how far away your target is and reaction time also.
If your shooting in a CQB environment, or your target is 30-50 yds away, and you can't hit them without looking into your sights then you could easily come down with a bad case of death. Optics really help and I agree with you, but I always found myself reverting back to instinct and knowing my weapon even with fancy sights on my it.



I totally agree. Becoming reliant on them is a bad habit tho IMO. What happens when conditions are not like your training, or sights get damaged/bumped a bit? One of the worst things to do to a sniper is slap the hell outta their sights.

Yah, was talking about real life. And in close quarters you're more point shooting than aiming with anything, but at like medium range and on I feel optics make for quicker shooting with less of your view obstructed, so I like them.

Post automatically merged: Jun 13, 2019

This is the future. The parallax effect is a feature.

#AttitudeIsEverything

(...)

LOL, nice! :-D

Post automatically merged: Jun 13, 2019

I'm always blown away by gun enthusiasts and their in-game expectations/requirements.

You never hear from people that race cars say "wow, I really hope this upcoming RPG video game will authentically simulate how cars behave" or from architects "this building's structure isn't optimal, no-one would design space like that" etc.

....and then there are gun enthusiasts.... "oh hey... this red dot is inaccurate!!! fix it!!111!!1"

lmao.

I mean, I get it.. but.. yeah

Um, you never hear car enthusiasts wish that cars in games are represented in a more realistic manner?? I can't tell if you're trolling or what... lmfao. And I don't know how difficult you think this is, when a independent mod maker working in his free time releasing a free mod gun for Fallout 4 has it behaving correctly. Not to mention many other games that already have it where it behaves accurately.

And who do you think these developers are? You think they are like you who are satisfied with "good enough, who cares?"??? If so, they wouldn't have made a game like The Witcher games... Sorry, but I believe they have higher standards than you and would not simply dismiss details just because kids that don't know better wouldn't notice...

If you watch the gameplay footage again, there are a lot of details that only "certain" people would notice. Like the small Trauma Team segment, their usage of medical terminology, and the fact that those guys had the correct shooting posture, and the way they moved their feet when they moved, especially the last guy that walked backwards into the vehicle, is all modeled correctly. Yes, people who know how to move and shoot move their feet differently, it's not like normal walking, most of your weight is always on the balls of your feet instead of the heals... So obviously the developers DO care about these little details even though you would have been happy with Counterstrike with a Cyberpunk setting... ;-)

Post automatically merged: Jun 13, 2019

These points are very valid though. Just like how Maximum Mike did his own research on weapons, CDPR has to do the same. I'm pretty sure they have and everyone wants the weapons and their parts to function as close to reality as the game can allow. If there are problems with the sights it's great that we have a forum to bring it up in, so that it may get fixed.

But we don't really even know if it is an issue yet. There are going to be a lot of things that piss people off when the game drops and we should still voice our concerns so that things can get refined in the next Cyberpunk addition to 2077 or any expansions.

There are already a few things about the recent demo (that we have only read about) that have me giving mad side-eyes.

The gun topic is always a tense one because shooting guns in game is very different than real life. Most of the anti gun-talk is based on fear from what is portrayed in movies and games, when really being able to shoot a gun is just a good skill to have. You know, just in case you have to protect yourself or someone you love...or if you need to kill and eat a something in a survival situation. It's much more complicated than that and I do not want this thread to go there, but you get the point.

I really don't like games that glorify killing or war because it is so different IRL and it gives people a false idea of the power of weaponry and the fragility of bodies. These players that get shot many times in game only get bummed out and the first thing they need to do afterward is find a med kit. IRL if they barely get grazed or like a pinky toe size of flesh removed by a bullet it could mean incapacitation.

Cyberpunk is a game that has all sorts of dangerous stuff in it, and I am looking forward to the crazy weapons and the futuristic take on what can be done with them, but it's still just a story experience. I am super glad CDPR is taking it very seriously, but I am most looking forward to the story aspect of the game coming from great story tellers.

Yep, obviously the story is going to be the main show here. But I'm sure you understand that it'll be nice if everything surrounding it is also done correctly.

 

[Cybunknymph]

Yep, obviously the story is going to be the main show here. But I'm sure you understand that it'll be nice if everything surrounding it is also done correctly.

Hell yeah, I'm impressed with what CDPR has already done with keeping things as correct as they should be.

Not many other studios care at all.