Damage scaling and multipliers

[KakitaTatsumaru]

Ok sure, this game features an advanced weapon known as the Smart Gun, which can shoot bullets that homes onto targets without much aiming involved. I'm sure there are many ways the game can negate general marksmanship skills and force scenarios to be more character driven. CP2077 is very much character driven and there is only so much that skill can affect gameplay as far as I can tell.

To reiterate: CP2077 is an RPG first, whatever else second, and I'm not sure why you think otherwise.

Your example is material based, not character based.
A good marksman isn't good only with smartguns...

And there is LOTS of ways to makes the shoot character driven. I can give a lot of actual alreadu used example if you wish. But after I came back, in about twelve hours.
So ask is you want.

Precisely. It's about maintaining an adequate level of challenge to keep the game interesting. Gear/loot will have no meaning unless they serve a practical purpose, and that means your enemies have to get stronger to justify the upgrades in your gear.

I didn't knew there is an actually objective view of what is "interesting".

 

[Tangsta]

I didn't knew there is an actually objective view of what is "interesting".

I think the general consensus is that if the gameplay is too "easy", it's no longer interesting. Easy kills in video games is only interesting with context.

So ask is you want.

Since I'm still having a hard time deciphering what your aim is here, I think you should outright tell me what it is you want from CP2077. Do you want this game to be an RPG or a shooter?

 

[gogmeister777]

Yeah. It’s more about keeping up rather than progressing.

Yeah, I get what you mean Kofe, that's why I've always felt it's important to balance the game so the player has opportunities to feel how much they've progressed. In other words, have earlier opponents that used to take 6-7 hits now get beaten after 3-4 hits, and then 1-2, as the player increases in power. Keep lower level enemies about, rather than having all enemies always increasing.

It's harder work for devs, since they need to balance it so that the right missions and right areas are still challenging, but hopefully an open world game should be able to provide plenty of chances for a player to 'feel the power', as opposed to a more linear game.

 

[Mk3rd]

Yeah, I get what you mean Kofe, that's why I've always felt it's important to balance the game so the player has opportunities to feel how much they've progressed. In other words, have earlier opponents that used to take 6-7 hits now get beaten after 3-4 hits, and then 1-2, as the player increases in power. Keep lower level enemies about, rather than having all enemies always increasing.

Though isn't that how most ARPGs nowadays play without scaling? As you further through the game and then decide to visit some question marks in the prologue area.. yeah, one shots for every lvl 10 bear who looks exactly the same as the lvl 65 you spent 5 minutes fighting a while ago.

I feel like this is more difficult for the devs but I think it's better if enemy levels and archetypes are tied solely to AI rather than damage multipliers. Higher lvld military corpos who are expecting you should be way more tactical and coordinated than your run-of-the-mil street gang whom you've raided by surprise. And bosses should be better at adapting to hide their weak spots(It sucks but it's already implemented so..). And real damage sponges should also be visually represented through armor/plates not just on bosses but to grunts as well.

 

[Suhiira]

You can also "scale" opponents via their damage output.

Imperial Storm Troopers can't hit the broad side of a Star Destroyer so their damage output sucks. Darth on the other hand is deadly not just because of his Jedi abilities but because he can actually hit something.

And "damage sponges" definitely should have visual clues, i.e. armor. "Weak spots" are a Mcguffin far to common in shooters and I cringe virtually every time I see one.

 

[xer21]

Precisely. It's about maintaining an adequate level of challenge to keep the game interesting. Gear/loot will have no meaning unless they serve a practical purpose, and that means your enemies have to get stronger to justify the upgrades in your gear.

yeah, every game has to have this. if the encouonters themselves don't progress because only YOU do, then you're not playing an RPG, you're playing God Simulator.

Post automatically merged: Jun 26, 2019

And "damage sponges" definitely should have visual clues, i.e. armor.

I mean, sure. it works with the mechanics in the tabletop too since armor is essentially just temp HP in a lot of ways.

but either way, you need people that soak up bullets on some level.

 

[Mk3rd]

but either way, you need people that soak up bullets on some level.

Or they should just be better at covering themselves up, through actual armor or environment. Makes more sense that way. But then again, if you're a high leveled-ninja-solo, there's just no escape. Don't want to say it, but i feel like the fpp also contributed to this as you wouldn't know if you're in full cover so you need to be a bit of a sponge yourself in order to react after feeling that very 1st hit.

I just hope a slower, more tactical and deadly shoot-out scenario is still possible cause from what we've seen so far, it still looks like the fun here comes by turning it into a shadow warrior sequel with auto-fire pistols

 

[Snowflakez]

Problem with that is that most of the times (not always) while lowering difficulty lower enemy sponginess it also add to player sponginess, which is just switching one problem for the other.

Yeah.

I'm still hoping for a "realism" mode where both players and enemies die faster, with cyberware accounting for some tankiness where appropriate.

But hey, that's what mods are for. This should be fairly easy to adjust, even for somebody with no modding experience. Pretty sure you'll just be fiddling with numbers.

 

[xer21]

Or they should just be better at covering themselves up, through actual armor or environment. Makes more sense that way.

uhhh, that's what I mean.

having armor is still functionally just adding the amount of damage it takes to kill someone.

whether they do it with armor or health, either way, they're sponging bullets. its functionally the same thing, just different justification.

Don't want to say it, but i feel like the fpp also contributed to this as you wouldn't know if you're in full cover so you need to be a bit of a sponge yourself in order to react after feeling that very 1st hit.

do you play shooters? because really, its not difficult to tell if you're in cover or not once you get a sense of space about you, and most games put the camera in the top of the head anyways so its a very easy "if you can see us, we can see you" deal.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

I don't know about "realism" per say. I don't mind enemies soaking a few rounds based on their armor and body stat and the caliber they are shot with, but the HP sponge effect could relatively easily be solved via target lock and realtime locational targeting where torso might be almost guaranteed hit (unless your skill is really low) that, with armor or skinweave, might also require more rounds to penetrate, but head and limbs would be the "sweet spots" to aim for for significantly higher difficulty. Immobilize -> finish off.

It could also be that some armors are just too heavy for your puny 9mm and as such, no damage is done. But it could still momentarily stagger the enemy making it easier to pull off a headshot or a couple when required. Difficulty settings affecting the hardships of pulling off those prizeshots.

More tactical approach, little to no "instadeaths" annoying people, and no level 50 street thugs with over 9000 HP.

 

[gogmeister777]

yeah, one shots for every lvl 10 bear who looks exactly the same as the lvl 65 you spent 5 minutes fighting a while ago.

You mean a lvl 10 and a lvl 65 bear?

If that's what you mean then yes, I agree. I think that sort of thing should be done away with. A bear is a bear. You could make one bear bigger, a different breed or armoured or demonic, sure, but if they look the same and are, from a lore point of view, exactly the same then there should never be such a vast difference.

I'm saying, and I think we're in agreement here, that the common drunks who gave you trouble when you were lvl 1 and had a rusty longsword and leather jerkin, should be no problem when you find similar louts in another town when you're lvl 10, wearing platemail and armed with a battleaxe +2. As opposed to them somehow being incredibly tough and shrugging off hits just because the dev wants them to still be a challenge 25 hours into the game.

And that's one of the advantages with open-world games. There will always be a reason for lower level enemies and the player won't mind, because of the more realistic and slower paced, exploratory nature of the game. It makes sense and gives them an opportunity to revel in their progress.

 

[Mk3rd]

whether they do it with armor or health, either way, they're sponging bullets. its functionally the same thing, just different justification.

Sorry, I guess i meant seeing shirtless dudes with minimal implants soaking up bullets is just.. you know..

do you play shooters? because really, its not difficult to tell if you're in cover or not once you get a sense of space about you, and most games put the camera in the top of the head anyways so its a very easy "if you can see us, we can see you" deal.

Not the biggest fan tbh but i make exceptions. Just saying it might just feel weird to soak up that damage from sticking your butt out and then run in an RPG that claims to be brutally realistic.

I'm saying, and I think we're in agreement here, that the common drunks who gave you trouble when you were lvl 1 and had a rusty longsword and leather jerkin, should be no problem when you find similar louts in another town when you're lvl 10, wearing platemail and armed with a battleaxe +2. As opposed to them somehow being incredibly tough and shrugging off hits just because the dev wants them to still be a challenge 25 hours into the game.

But that's the thing. It wouldn't be immersion breaking if it at least complimented the visual representation, cause you'll find the exact same lout in another town but with a bigger number on their heads and suddenly, your blade become dull. While a fully plated soldier that's stationed somewhere 20 hours earlier in your game suddenly gets sliced in half at a press of a button.

 

[xer21]

Not the biggest fan tbh but i make exceptions. Just saying it might just feel weird to soak up that damage from sticking your butt out and then run in an RPG that claims to be brutally realistic.

well I'm not sure when this game was ever presented as being "brutally realistic", but you should try playing a few more shooters, properly designed, the cover is very obvious if you're in it and any good engine and movement system will give you a proper sense of space an body size. you can "feel" where you are if its done right.

 

[Mk3rd]

well I'm not sure when this game was ever presented as being "brutally realistic"

It was, aeons ago

 

[Suhiira]

whether they do it with armor or health, either way, they're sponging bullets. its functionally the same thing, just different justification.

But that justification is important if you want your game to be "fiction" rather then "fantasy".

 

[speeebot]

Depends on your personal tastes.
For some it is.

And for some it isn't. This is why CDPR won't make everyone happy. There are probably many systems that would be useless in the game if every gun worked exactly like it should in real life.

 

[xer21]

It was, aeons ago

"Brutally realistic" isn't a term that shows up in that entire thing. brutal, yes, but no mention of brutal realism.

But that justification is important if you want your game to be "fiction" rather then "fantasy".

I'm just talking about whether the idea itself of "bullet sponges" is inherently bad or impossible to work with. its neither. that was my point. that becomes less about gameplay mechanics and more about thematic consistency, is my point.

we need thematic consistency, but that to me is less a debate on gunplay mechanics and more on presentation.

 

[Tangsta]

I don't know about "realism" per say. I don't mind enemies soaking a few rounds based on their armor and body stat and the caliber they are shot with

It's the classic issue of gamification vs simulation. Good game design is about achieving "fun", and because that is such a subjective goal, it's difficult to please everyone.

RDR 2 is an example of a game that swings more towards simulation than being "gamified", i.e. having stats and deep progression systems, to make the game more fun. You can complete the entirety of RDR 2's story with just your starting weapons and equipment, and all upgrades are mostly ancillary to the experience. I guess they're more "side-grades" (horizontal progression) than upgrades (vertical progression). So whilst RDR 2 is more "realistic" than most TPS, it suffers by lacking fun progression because the game simply provides very little incentive to upgrade anything and caters more to a very sandbox style of play. RDR Online, however, is where all the progression systems lie and I'm sure R* designed this intentionally to get people to spend more money on it.

Towards the other end of the spectrum, The Division 2, is definitely more gamified than simulated, and bullet sponges are very important to the gameplay systems. The Division 2 does a much better job of deep and fun progression systems and gear/loot are an integral part of the game.

I prefer CP2077 to be more oriented towards The Division 2's gameplay systems than RDR 2. But that's me, I love my stats and deep progression systems. That said, RPGs are generally characterised by deep progression systems and since CDPR have already reiterated that CP2077 is an RPG before it's anything else, expect exactly that.

 

[KakitaTatsumaru]

I think the general consensus is that if the gameplay is too "easy", it's no longer interesting. Easy kills in video games is only interesting with context.

Do you consider setting where ennemies die fast but the player die just as fast as being too "easy".
For example, something along the line of X-com, where non tank ennemies can die in a single shot but can kill your non tanky unit just as fast.

Since I'm still having a hard time deciphering what your aim is here, I think you should outright tell me what it is you want from CP2077. Do you want this game to be an RPG or a shooter?

It's actually two different questions.

What I would have wanted would have been something where 90% of the result of an action would have been character dependant. Think Kotor:

On even better: how Mass Effect squadmates are ordered to do things.
Anyway being able to "lock on" a target and having the character do his job.
That's what I would have wanted, but that's obviously not compatible with what CDprojekt wanted.

And for the other question here are some things which can easely be used as RPG combats mechanics in an action game:
-Original Deus Ex aim assist (for the best shooter V).
-Vampire the masquerade spread circle (for worst shooter V).
That would be the minimum for an "RPG first" game imho.

 

[Suhiira]

I prefer CP2077 to be more oriented towards The Division 2's gameplay systems than RDR 2.

So you'd prefer CP2077 to be more of a shooter and less of an RPG?