When you have soldier in front of you and you shot him with 300 bullets from LMG, and he still have health and fight you like nothing happened, yeah that is problem.
Yes, but there is a difference there. Sponge mechanics are just that, you slice it out little by little until you get a better damage dealer. Armor system is much more flexible in that it can be leashed to provide more tactics to the gameplay. For instance, through AP rounds or weapons that have higher penetrative capabilities. Your shotgun might not do anything to certain kind of armor, but the high velocity AP rounds of your AR would cut through it with little problems. And similiarly, while the buckshot of your shotgun might rip someone without armor right open, the AR rounds might just punch right through doing a fleshwound. Yeah, it's a game, there needs to be HP to an extent and gamey features like that, but the point is armor resistance and bypassability with different choice weapons.
If there is armor only to increase the digits of HP, it is indeed a null issue.
Probably not the only way, but I'd say most convenient and representative of the characters ability. It's also less intrusive in that it doesn't fool the player into thinking the game cheats him with having the reticle or iron sights spot on target and still miss, which is a common complaint with games where you aim yourself, but the bullets still curve as per skillbased spreadvalue. "I aimed right between the eyes, why did I miss???" It is easier to build and balance the system so that it makes sense in the context of the game and its genre around abstracted aim that clearly tells the player: "You move the character, you choose the target, you choose when to pull the trigger, but the character aims as per how you've built and progressed him."
That doesn't mean that bullets that miss, don't hit anything, though. Nor that it would lack action, nor that your character inevitably misses clip after clip after clip early on and even later on. Systems can be built around choosing the right moment to pull the trigger for best situational accuracy. What that does is it makes careless running and gunning really ineffective and forces more focused and tactical approach to combat situations, and actually encourages skillprogression because low skill does really mean you'll perform badly.
Most FPS RPGs are looter shooters, so you're taking most of the available sample size. While loot isn't as big a factor in Cyberpunk, there's still reason to worry it'll suffer from the same issues as a Borderlands or Division.
Post automatically merged:
The pacing of encounters, especially boss battles, is dragged down by unloading clip after clip into large enemies. This was the case in the Maelstrom boss fight. If every big moment is spraying mech'd up guys with bullets, it'll be an issue.
Different builds like Netrunners or melee characters may provide more variety, but we've yet to see a 2077 bullet sponge taken down by anything you wouldn't see in a Destiny strike. There's much gameplay left to be shown/tweaked, sure, but these are fine concerns to have at this stage in development.
Last edited:
RPG is supposed to be immersive, illogic bullet sponge aren't.
Headshot accuracy can be a thrill which is why a number of games ‘reward’ the player by doing extra damage and or extra XP for getting them, sometimes but not always instant killing the target.
they're the same way, just different window dressing. either way, its an incentive to either upgrade your equipment or your whole approach. the functional change is the same, you need more hits to kill.
the only difference is that one LOOKS more true in its presentation. the end result is the same though, you either shoot more, or use better guns/weapons.
are they though? outside of The Division and Borderlands, there aren't that many. Deus Ex, Bioshock (if you count it, System Shock 2 if you dont), STALKER, Mass Effect, Fallout, Prey, Dishonored (if you count it, but I understand why you wouldn't), etc....none of those even remotely fall into looter shooter categories. in fact, most of them have relatively stable enemy encounters the whole way, Deus Ex, Prey and STALKER especially.
If you zoom the point out far enough, you can say it’s all the same mechanically anyway, either you kill the enemy, or he kills you.
You have to look closer as the point is down in the details. They affect how the player feels and thus approaches the situation.
My point was that with simply chipping down the digits, you always choose the tool that does the most damage, there’s never a need to change that pattern; but with a well done armor system, you might need a set of tools and swap on the fly to a more suitable tool for the situation at hand. Some enemies might require AP rounds, some others JHP, some explosive, some EMP (for example). Or you might need to weigh those choices already before combat or the mission. Tactical decision making between a number of options instead of simply moving up the ladder linearly.
not at all the case and not what I'm doing. this is a very simple concept. whether its more health, or armor, its functionally having you do the EXACT same thing: shoot more bullets, hit more times. you could put either scenario in and it wouldn't change what you have to do or how you do it (in the way armor was being discussed). its literally just shifting health into armor so that its feels more logical. but its the same thing. there's an enemy that takes x amount of bullets hitting it to kill it. the actions you take don't change because the effect you have is the same. armor piercing ammunition is effectively just a stronger gun in this scenario. unless armor allows enemies to completely tank hits (which it might, we don't know, but that's not what was described when I responded), it is fundamentally the same as just buffing health. all they did was call it a different name in the way of presentation.
that's already largely accounted for even in the most spongy of looter shooters. pretty much every game forces you to tailor equipment for the enemy. this isn't new, even borderlands does this with the elemental damage system. but they just buff the health and get the same effect anyway, because all you're really doing is making certain things hit harder against a de facto health pool. those choices exist either way whether they use an armor system or a pure health pool.
an armor system is just communicating the exact same information through a different language. either way you're creating a enemy that soaks up more hits. if you dislike "bullet sponges", utilizing and armor system in no way changes the reality, it just flavors it in a way that's more palatable for you.
You forget immersion, something important for RPGs.
If you think that having a naked body taking dozens of bullets to die is as immersive as having an heavily armored body taking dozens of bullets to die, it's your right, but don't imagine that's the same for many people.
immersion is subjective.
a lot of people probably wont notice one way or the other, and depending on how fights are paced, you wont have time to notice.
immersion as a concept has just become a cheap way to hate on any idea. frankly, if the game play works well and the story works well, most people aren't going to nit pick about these details because they'll be too busy immersed in the world.
That's true.
But I think the point is that they work so much alike, that it makes little difference whether it's this or that. And using a common blanket term like FPS doesn't muddy the waters for the point being made, which is the same either way.
And it also helps not having to constantly write multiples of "1st/3rd person shooter" or "FPS/TPS" in every post.
I'm using the term shooter here loosely, because though its third person, its still rooted very much in well, shooting, compared to like, say, tomb raider, or another Third Person game with more gameplay elements than just combat.
True, for the player it is very much about shooting - though you can smack people at close range with the butt of your firearm and there are Melee opponents.
it CAN be. But are you seriously immersed in a one shot headshot w/out armor or 3 full clip headshots w/out armor at point blank while the guy stares at you blankly as if he feels and sees nothing?
like I said, that 100% depends on how everything else surrounding it feels.
It's been explained multiple times that a damage sponge is simply a mechanic to encourage players to upgrade their gear. Most RPGs have this mechanic. If you're taking too long to kill an enemy, it's most likely because you're not doing enough damage with your current gear. From my experience, if the game gives you an enemy with a ridiculous amount of HP, there is most likely a very powerful weapon that exists that will justify this. It's an RPG, damage sponges are an intentional problem the game gives you to solve.
As for the Maelstrom fight:
- The fight only lasted 2-3 minutes tops.
- The narrator stated at the start of the fight that he was packing an armored exoskeleton with a shield and that the player's weapon is not going to do much damage to it.
- The fight also highlights that the enemy had certain weak spots you can exploit to speed up the fight, which is there to encourage you to fight strategically, and not just "emptying clips at the target".
But if all that is not enough, then I really hate to break it to you guys, but if quick (to the degree of pointlessness) gun fights is what you're after, this is the wrong game for you, either that or you can just go for a pacifist playthrough and bypass gunfights altogether.
Last edited:
It's not as if we aren't warned before hand by the lore and by the trailer.
A guy heavily modified like in last year's trailer that can withstand machinegun headshots because his head skull had been replaced/plated with very strong alloy, improved cerebral liquid and improved neck dampening, it makes sense. Basically like the T800 in terminator...
In the PnP it makes sense as well and they will go beyond with more localized armor ratings.
I wouldn't be surprised if poor shot me would see "0" "0" "0" pop out of headshots because my foe has heavy skull modifications.
Get better weapon upgrades, sight mods that have you see the weak points in the armoring strategy and go for it.
For those who just want to play loud and strong I am sure you'll get strong enough arms to lift ordnance-grade weapons, shouldn't meet too much resistance.
I plan on doing stealth non lethal. I want the first run to last long, and stealth/non lethal should be at least 3 times longer than those who just play Duty of Cyberpunk.
A guy heavily modified like in last year's trailer that can withstand machinegun headshots because his head skull had been replaced/plated with very strong alloy, improved cerebral liquid and improved neck dampening, it makes sense. Basically like the T800 in terminator...
In the PnP it makes sense as well and they will go beyond with more localized armor ratings.
I wouldn't be surprised if poor shot me would see "0" "0" "0" pop out of headshots because my foe has heavy skull modifications.
Get better weapon upgrades, sight mods that have you see the weak points in the armoring strategy and go for it.
For those who just want to play loud and strong I am sure you'll get strong enough arms to lift ordnance-grade weapons, shouldn't meet too much resistance.
I plan on doing stealth non lethal. I want the first run to last long, and stealth/non lethal should be at least 3 times longer than those who just play Duty of Cyberpunk.
I'm kinda hoping for some kind of a knockdown effect mechanic to armored but light enemies where they might still get up after a shot to the noggin' but not zeroed because of some implants. That would be cool.
Dunno if I'm late about this info but i think it does answer these concerns to an extent, I hope.(I'm also just as hopeful as Miles here that these mechanics turn up in the final build) basically bullet-spread progression but it's better than nothing imo. I find this "investing to your playstyle" more fun.
Which is much better imo. Good visual representation alone can make you think about who your 1st, and last target is before jumping in. Imagine if that big scav with a shotgun who's bullets bounce off his face in the trailer was actually not a pistol sponge during gameplay and little ol' Dum-Dum rushes you with a machete, tanks a clip or 2 of your LMG, and pushes you back to your hidey hole.
Last edited: