Please accommodate both specialists and generalist builds

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Dude they are NPC who follow code that developer put them, they are not fully Sentient to act 100% on there own free will, Jackie acted like that since he follow a code developers put for that scenario, not becouse he think he is some badass alpha male.

Also you remember companions by their personality, their story, do you like them do you not like them for some reason, not by some random action they do during some quest or random event.
 
So, leveling up the attributes/skills will not depend on your story progression.

Skills yes, but attributes I don't know what's your source.

And I barely remember any companions.

...and Dragon Age, they pulled the same shit with companions, mostly sitting around camp, waiting for the player to start dialogs, and standing idle as mercenaries. I don't remember them at all.
Morrigan_Disapproves.jpg
 
There is currently no known way of making V better (or worst) at fast talking.

Its likely not going to happen either since characters are fully voice acted. Having the dialog change entirely just for a change in an attribute or a perk is asking too much.
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I mean, increasing numbers is not what defines an RPG, in my opinion.

There are great many people who think otherwise, including CDPR; since CDPR devs are on record saying different leveled areas and in general leveling progression is a natural component of an RPG.

I disagree completely. Lets say that CDPR is old-fashioned in this sense and pretty set in their ways apparently.
 
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Its likely not going to happen either since characters are fully voice acted. Having the dialog change entirely just for a change in an attribute or a perk is asking too much.

I would consider myself satisfed with something of the level of Vampire: The Masquerade Bloodlines, actually.
Plus it's no different that adding a dialogue option from another skill based test like there is already in the game.
I'm not asking about Planescape Torment (I wish, but that's unrealist until CDprojekt become the new Rockstar money wise), just dialogue skills and skill test (the second ones already being in the game) opening dialogue option for charming V.

There are great many people who think otherwise, including CDPR; since CDPR devs are on record saying different leveled areas and in general leveling progression is a natural component of an RPG.

Those who says that cannot said they played C2020.
 
I already discussed this to the point of exhaustion with many people in other threads, so if you disagree with me here, that's okay. I'm just sharing my opinion but I'm too tired to defend it *yawn* but what I will simply and politely leave here to say is this:

I wish to 100% the entire game, and with serious effort and challenge and smart thinking and furious fighting, I wish to start as level 0 V (weak and new to the game) and then level up my V to insanely high levels, level up ALL skills, unlock ALL cyberware, ALL upgrades, ALL perks, Everything. EVERYTHING. I want to hack all hackable computers/buildings/objects, and I want to be, Not only just the jack of all trades, but also the MASTER of all too. And I want to do it all in one continuous playthrough, my first playthrough. If I try hard enough, and think smart enough and fight enough, with enough challenge and effort, I want to have my cake and eat it too, as long as I earned it. I do not want to be soft capped or hard capped or blocked or limited in any way from EARNING my way up to the top and becoming essentially the most dangerous and powerful person in Night City. Maybe even the most powerful Cybernetic Intelligence, but still have control over my original body too.

If you don't like this idea, there is a strong chance you misunderstood what I meant. (I don't assume this is always the case) but please read my words very carefully, because the way I use them does matter, and what I say is just as important as what I didn't say. Please re-read this post a few times in a row, because It will minimize the amount of people that will reply and force me to re-explain everything again. Do not make quick assumptions after skimming this post! thank you and have a nice day. :)
 
Dude they are NPC who follow code that developer put them, they are not fully Sentient to act 100% on there own free will, Jackie acted like that since he follow a code developers put for that scenario, not becouse he think he is some badass alpha male.
Yes, they are coded that way, yet the devs don't code their behavior out of no-where. The code should still reflect the NPC's personality. Or do you think, they code their behavior just randomly? That would open up a full can of inconsistencies, wouldn't it?
Also you remember companions by their personality, their story, do you like them do you not like them for some reason, not by some random action they do during some quest or random event.
Actions speak louder then words! & SHOW! Don't tell! - common rule for writing/filming/coding stories.
Skills yes, but attributes I don't know what's your source.
Source: https://forums.cdprojektred.com/ind...r-answers-to-your-cp-2077-questions.10970951/
1. >\Are there mini games?

June 2019 Lilayah: "Hacking for sure, and we have other activities in mind. Streetracing! Visiting a shooting range to level up your shooting skills. We'll surprise you! "

2. >\Are there skills? Stats? Perks? How do they improve?

July 26/18 CP2077 Twitter: "We have Attributes like STR, REF etc. which can be raised by leveling up and Installing body cyberware; Skills, raised by successfully performing actions (Hacking, Crafting, Short Guns, Long Guns etc.); Perks unlocked with both Street Cred and XP."
Sounds to me, as if attributes and skills can be raised by performing their respected actions, and that the game offers opportunities to do so in free roam.
Who is that chick? Wait, isn't that Samus, from Diablo? :p Just kidding...
...well, since you posted a pic, I do remember who she is. But I would not have guessed her name if it wasn't right there on the pic. I am sorry, but there was just not enough for me, to keep playing and get invested in those characters, and believe me, I played Dragon Age quite a while.
There are great many people who think otherwise, including CDPR; since CDPR devs are on record saying different leveled areas and in general leveling progression is a natural component of an RPG.

I disagree completely. Lets say that CDPR is old-fashioned in this sense and pretty set in their ways apparently.
You're right, poor choice of words from me, please allow me to rephrase:

"Just increasing numbers is not what defines an RPG, in my opinion."

Just look at what has become of Fallout, the prime example of failed RPG's. Just compare Fallout 1 with Fallout 76. How much RPG is left? Despite the fact, that 76 still features levels, attributes, perks and what not?
FarCry nowadays also features some sorts of leveling, skills and/or perks. I remember FarCry 3's tattoo perks. Does that qualify as an RPG?
The new Tomb Raider titles feature levels, skills and perks. Do they qualify as RPG's?
GTA? Saints Row I believe also had RPG mechanics? Or some of the Assassins Creed titles? Though, Odyssey at least tried to be an RPG, but still is a giant mess...

But I digress. Don't want to blow this threat out of its topic. I made my point.
 
2. >\Are there skills? Stats? Perks? How do they improve?

July 26/18 CP2077 Twitter: "We have Attributes like STR, REF etc. which can be raised by leveling up and Installing body cyberware; Skills, raised by successfully performing actions (Hacking, Crafting, Short Guns, Long Guns etc.); Perks unlocked with both Street Cred and XP."
Sounds to me, as if attributes and skills can be raised by performing their respected actions, and that the game offers opportunities to do so in free roam.

I think you are reading it wrong, it's more like:
-Attributes: can be raised with level up and cyberware.
-Skills: can be raised performing actions.
-Perks: Unlocked using XP and Street Cred.

Nothing about training an attribute to raise it.
The only thing you can train is skills.
 
I think you are reading it wrong, it's more like:
-Attributes: can be raised with level up and cyberware.
-Skills: can be raised performing actions.
-Perks: Unlocked using XP and Street Cred.

Nothing about training an attribute to raise it.
The only thing you can train is skills.
Sure, not everything might be raised by training, but my point was rather, that we will probably have opportunities to raise attributes, skills, or gaining perks, in free roam.

- Attributes: cyberware probably can be bought in free roam, right? So you can raise your attributes in free roam. Sure, not to the max right away, but it's something.
- Perks: now, I don't know how street cred will work, but I could imagine that we will be able to increase it in free roam.
- XP: this one is vague. Will we able to earn XP in free roam? If yes, is it like Witcher 3, where monsters dropped XP, but not nearly enough to effectively grind levels? Or will they approach it different this time, maybe like, enemies give enough XP to grind a little and missions give only money and/or valuable items, like weapon mods, gear, quest items, and such. But I don't really know.
However, it still seems like we will have enough opportunities to raise our attributes/skills/perks to prepare at least enough to deal with the full range of eventualities.

I also understand your worries, and I understand where they come from. It's bad game design, like in Deus Ex: Human Revolution, where they pitched us into boss battles that became really nasty if combat skills (and such) where not high enough. Or entering the boss fight with non-lethal weapons only and only a little ammo, which happened to me and man, was I pissed...

...but DE:HR's problems are mostly based on lack of alternatives to account for different playstyles, not so much based on skills. In case of Cyberpunk 2077, from seeing last years gameplay demo, from reading info's here, I get the strong vibe, that CDPR is going for enough alternatives to get through, regardless of the skills/attributes/perks we did, or didn't invested in.
 
Not going to read the whole thing... at least not in one go.


So, you want to build a character who is only specialized in ONE thing?

Yes. And we will be able to, and that will be perfectly viable.

That's kinda silly isn't it?

No.

I mean, that character would be utterly useless in ANYTHING outside of his/her expertise.

That's rather the point of role playing. You are good at some things and terrible at others. If my V sucks at shooting, I would find that to be a compelling and interesting "flaw" to have to contend with. I understand some people want a game with zero challenge, and want to have an answer to every situation, but that's just not quite how the real world works.

You seemed to be saying in the real world, you need to be a generalist because situations will rise that fall outside of your area of expertise. And yet, many people have no idea how to fix their cars, hack a computer, fire a gun, or do any number of other things -- they are specialized, and good at specific things. If they need other things taken care of, they *gasp*, hire someone to do it for them. :p

Of course, this is not Cyberpunk 2020, this is Cyberpunk 2077. And as others have pointed out, it is not a conversion of the tabletop RPG, it is a CDPR RPG, which means no social skills (so a social build is off the table), every character will be solid at combat from the get go (purely from a weapon handling perspective), etc. There will likely not be any "you can't hit the broad side of a barn" situations. So don't worry about other players. If they are forced into a bad situation, they will be able to shoot just as well as they can in other shooters (because it's largely player dependent, not character dependent).

And most importantly, how is this character supposed to deal with unforeseen consequences and/or situations, that are outside said expertise?

They aren't. I run. Or find an alternate path through a mission. If I'm forced to fight with my back against the wall, I will fight, but I'll do so only as much as necessary to get out of the situation and go back to doing what I do best. Bear in mind, they will not put you in a situation that requires you to, say, hack, when there's a possibility that you don't have a hacking skill. They are designing a "general path" through all (At least main) missions that everyone can do no matter what. This path is likely combat-oriented, which is why I referenced combat here as examples.
 
Yes. And we will be able to, and that will be perfectly viable.



No.



That's rather the point of role playing. You are good at some things and terrible at others. If my V sucks at shooting, I would find that to be a compelling and interesting "flaw" to have to contend with. I understand some people want a game with zero challenge, and want to have an answer to every situation, but that's just not quite how the real world works.

You seemed to be saying in the real world, you need to be a generalist because situations will rise that fall outside of your area of expertise. And yet, many people have no idea how to fix their cars, hack a computer, fire a gun, or do any number of other things -- they are specialized, and good at specific things. If they need other things taken care of, they *gasp*, hire someone to do it for them. :p

Of course, this is not Cyberpunk 2020, this is Cyberpunk 2077. And as others have pointed out, it is not a conversion of the tabletop RPG, it is a CDPR RPG, which means no social skills (so a social build is off the table), every character will be solid at combat from the get go (purely from a weapon handling perspective), etc. There will likely not be any "you can't hit the broad side of a barn" situations. So don't worry about other players. If they are forced into a bad situation, they will be able to shoot just as well as they can in other shooters (because it's largely player dependent, not character dependent).



They aren't. I run. Or find an alternate path through a mission. If I'm forced to fight with my back against the wall, I will fight, but I'll do so only as much as necessary to get out of the situation and go back to doing what I do best. Bear in mind, they will not put you in a situation that requires you to, say, hack, when there's a possibility that you don't have a hacking skill. They are designing a "general path" through all (At least main) missions that everyone can do no matter what. This path is likely combat-oriented, which is why I referenced combat here as examples.
Well, I was talking about literally only going for one thing, and not learning anything else, because it sounded like that was meant in the comment I was replying to. Like, going with a Barbarian Class and expecting that the game would not require them to do things from a different class, or that the game would only give them tasks suitable to the Barbarian Class. Since we won't have actual classes like that in Cyberpunk, that doesn't work.

Of course everything you said is correct and I fully agree. Not everyone is capable of doing everything. Everyone sucks at something...

...buuut, the vast majority is very well capable of all the things that are necessary for their daily lives and jobs. Since V will be a mercenary, he should (in my opinion) be capable to do everything that is required for his/her daily live and job. Sure, V might specialize in, let's say shooting stuff, but that doesn't mean V should ignore to learn hacking or sneaking to a basic level, because that can also be part of his/her daily life at anytime. And I am talking about basic levels, like being able to do mundane hacking, not to do high-security-epic-legendary hacking jobs. V should be accustomed with everything necessary for mercenary work, when it is his/her line of work, don't you think.

It's like with a car mechanic who specialized only in changing the tires, but completely ignored to learn to change the oil pump or the battery. No, much like V, the mechanic needs to know, at least enough, of everything concerning car mechanics, so that he is capable to do his job. Even if he specializes in race cars, he would still have learned how to repair common cars.

Right?
 

Yes and no. I think the OP's point has as much to do with the character progression systems as the encounter design.

Going with a typical setup, you create a character then pick and choose starting attributes. These choices set the stage for the character strengths and weaknesses. Then you have the "encounters". So, problems the character faces in the game play. Those problems are built in a way where you can solve them using a variety of methods. Again, in a typical system those methods are preemptively baked into the encounter. Perhaps not all of them but most encounters feature a number of predetermined, specialized solutions. Those solutions are applicable to certain character builds.

The problem with this system is the advantage offered by a jack of all trades tends to be overshadowed. To provide an example, you could build a flexible character and pick any one of three solutions to a given problem. The alternative would be to build a specialized character and always pick the same solution path. Regardless of the problem, your hacker character has a hacking related solution they can pursue. Since every one of those problems will have a predetermined hacking solution the flexibility for the jack of all trades doesn't really translate to better problem solving anywhere. Their flexibility doesn't matter. Not from the standpoint of solving problems, at least (from the standpoint of flavor it would).

Personally, I'd prefer it if the solutions to various problems were obfuscated. In other words, your hacker character wouldn't always know ahead of time they were choosing the hacking solution or path. Rather than have your character progression tied so heavily to their strengths, which determines how they would solve problems, flip the equation around. Make the path chosen to solve problems mold the character. Instead of the character build dictating how each problem is solved.

I'd even take it a step further and break the stigma of pass/fail. By this I mean quests would step away from a sequential progression after sequential successes along the way. Instead they would have points of failure built into them. With a fail progressing the quest in a different direction. Not outright ending it.

None of this is to say a hacking character shouldn't use their skill at hacking to solve problems. It's where they are strongest and how they would realistically try to handle problems (aka, it would be "in-character"). I just don't like it when games make everything so cookie cutter. In a way where that character can easily and obviously jump to the hacking solution in all cases. If this were not the way it was designed the flexibility for the jack of all trades becomes important. A specialized character would be out of their element when things didn't go perfectly as planned. A jack of all trades would be less disadvantaged if this were to happen.
 
I'd even take it a step further and break the stigma of pass/fail. By this I mean quests would step away from a sequential progression after sequential successes along the way. Instead they would have points of failure built into them. With a fail progressing the quest in a different direction. Not outright ending it.
That is what I would also prefer. And in some sense, CDPR seems to kinda go for that. Think of last years gameplay demo. V and Jacky attempt to buy the drone from the gang, but it fails because the shard from the corpo agent was rigged to fry the gangs computers.
Yet, the mission didn't ended...
 
Can easily be solved, by having attributes/skills level up by doing their appropriate actions, similar to the Elder Scrolls games, or even GTA. That way the player can "train" his skills anytime he wants. That also seems to be what CDPR is going for. They have said, I think multiple times already, that we will be able to do training, like with the boxing dummy from the trailer or going to a gun range.
So, leveling up the attributes/skills will not depend on your story progression.

IIRC, they have said that your attributes will limit how high you can train your skills. So if for instance your Reflex is 1, you will not be able to train Handguns to 100, but maybe only to 50. So even if you spend a thousand hours punching that boxing dummy, you will not be able to turn your Body 2 netrunner into a bare knuckle champion just by grinding away at the game.

This is honestly an improvement on the Elder Scrolls method, where you would game the system by sneaking in a corner behind a merchant, slowly improving your sneaking skills. Put something heavy on your keyboard and walk away for a couple of hours - presto your dexterity 2 character has now maxed out Sneaking.

In Cyberpunk 2077 you would not be able to become better at a thing than your attributes would allow, keeping your character more grounded in their stats. You would still be better at Handguns than Rifles, if that was what you were using in every fight, so I guess you could train to broaden your skills, but not to outright master them if you don't have the necessary attributes.

Now, how this interacts with attributes increasing from levelling/cyberwear remains to be seen. If you can level your attributes to 10 in everything, you can indeed master every skill, provided you have take the time to gain enough XP and/or eddies for the necessary improvements. Personally I hope that we will be able to make significant improvements, but not outright make V a 10-in-everything god amongst men. It does not fit the Cyberpunk style of putting you as the scrappy gutter-punk trying to make it to the big time and going up against the corpo demi-gods with unlimited resources (and sweet cyberwear). Maybe in a New Game+ or post credits situation, where the level cap is removed and a bunch of scaling enemies are added to grind on to your hearts content.
 
unnecessary limitations and hard caps/ soft caps (anything blocking the player from playing the game the way that they want to) is a huge game breaker for me. :giveup:
 
unnecessary limitations and hard caps/ soft caps (anything blocking the player from playing the game the way that they want to) is a huge game breaker for me. :giveup:
So, what...you want to start the game with 100% abilities across the board? I'm not really sure what you mean. A high level hacking mission should require the appropriate investment in points...same for top tier boss fights.
 
IIRC, they have said that your attributes will limit how high you can train your skills. So if for instance your Reflex is 1, you will not be able to train Handguns to 100, but maybe only to 50. So even if you spend a thousand hours punching that boxing dummy, you will not be able to turn your Body 2 netrunner into a bare knuckle champion just by grinding away at the game.
Oh, right, skills will be capped by attributes. I totally forgot about that. But I do hope, attributes will not be raised by just putting points into them. I mean, skills are trained by actually doing something, but attributes still require us assigning points in a menu?
And spending a thousand hours on a boxing dummy to become a bare knuckle champion should not be allowed, but it should be allowed to become at least a half decent boxer.

This is honestly an improvement on the Elder Scrolls method, where you would game the system by sneaking in a corner behind a merchant, slowly improving your sneaking skills. Put something heavy on your keyboard and walk away for a couple of hours - presto your dexterity 2 character has now maxed out Sneaking.
I initially liked the Elder Scrolls method, until I discovered the same exploits. And to be honest, it's a half baked system, because it holds so much potential and needs improvements left and right.
Well, I got a little carried away with writing down improvements, so I put them in a spoiler...
Cap skills by teachers/trainers (somewhat like Gothic did). Meaning, the player can improve boxing only to 10 by normal training, and/or using boxing in combat. But to unlock to improve from 10 to 20, the player is required to see a teacher/trainer, with the player paying money and skill points to learn new tricks. Then the player can improve boxing further to 20 by normal training/fighting, before he has to see the trainer/teacher again to unlock the next 10 levels.

The benefit of this is, that teachers/trainers can limit the amount of possible improvements, based on story progression. Like, in chapter 1 they are not available yet, in chapter 2 the player can unlock skill level 10-20, in chapter 3, skill level 20-30, and so on.

It also benefits realism, because in any game, where the player just puts points in skills on level up, it seems like the characters master their skills out of nowhere, as if they all have autism with savant syndrome for every skill. You know, like sitting behind a merchant for a few hours to become a master in sneaking. Yeah... sure...

And enemy scaling needs a deep cut, it has to go. When the player is actually required to do stuff to improve skills (instead of just assigning points in a menu), then scaling enemies will make all the hassle of improving completely worthless.

Game over on death, and enemies just killing the player on defeat, also needs a deep cut. Gothic had a "knock out" state on defeat, with the enemy giving snarky comments and stealing some money. After a short while, some HP would be replenished and the player character gets up again to continue the game. Enemies actually giving a mortal blow was quite rare, except for creatures and monster which did a mortal blow very often.
I once tried a mod for Skyrim, which implemented almost exactly that, and even added the ability to surrender. Sadly it was very wonky, with kinda broken animations. But it still improved gameplay by a lot.

Now, how this interacts with attributes increasing from levelling/cyberwear remains to be seen. If you can level your attributes to 10 in everything, you can indeed master every skill, provided you have take the time to gain enough XP and/or eddies for the necessary improvements. Personally I hope that we will be able to make significant improvements, but not outright make V a 10-in-everything god amongst men. It does not fit the Cyberpunk style of putting you as the scrappy gutter-punk trying to make it to the big time and going up against the corpo demi-gods with unlimited resources (and sweet cyberwear). Maybe in a New Game+ or post credits situation, where the level cap is removed and a bunch of scaling enemies are added to grind on to your hearts content.
I think cyberware/implants will unlock on story progression. In the beginning, the available cyberware/implants will increase attributes just a little, while the really good stuff comes at the end of the game.
But I am much more interested in how street-cred and perks will work. I heard somewhere that street-cred is raised (or influenced?) by clothing? But I'm not sure if this is really the case.
I kinda imagine it like every faction has its own type of street-cred, and player can increase it by either doing missions for them, or by dressing up like them. Or maybe dressing up like a specific faction would grand a bonus of the earned street-cred from missions?
Could also be, that dressing up like a specific faction just makes V's life easier in their territories. Like dressing like the "Animals" would increases the odds that they let V roam around their territory unharmed. Somewhat like a... disguise?
But I don't know, its all just speculations.
 
I am fine that stat hold your weapon skill progression, for example Str 8 equal melee weapon skills 8, but i don't like the idea that Cool stat will hold my weapon skill progression.

Or that Cool will help you aim more steady, and yes i know that Cool is how calm you are under pressure, but that don't make you better marksman.
 
So, what...you want to start the game with 100% abilities across the board? I'm not really sure what you mean. A high level hacking mission should require the appropriate investment in points...same for top tier boss fights.
My other more detailed post
I already discussed this to the point of exhaustion with many people in other threads, so if you disagree with me here, that's okay. I'm just sharing my opinion but I'm too tired to defend it *yawn* but what I will simply and politely leave here to say is this:

I wish to 100% the entire game, and with serious effort and challenge and smart thinking and furious fighting, I wish to start as level 0 V (weak and new to the game) and then level up my V to insanely high levels, level up ALL skills, unlock ALL cyberware, ALL upgrades, ALL perks, Everything. EVERYTHING. I want to hack all hackable computers/buildings/objects, and I want to be, Not only just the jack of all trades, but also the MASTER of all too. And I want to do it all in one continuous playthrough, my first playthrough. If I try hard enough, and think smart enough and fight enough, with enough challenge and effort, I want to have my cake and eat it too, as long as I earned it. I do not want to be soft capped or hard capped or blocked or limited in any way from EARNING my way up to the top and becoming essentially the most dangerous and powerful person in Night City. Maybe even the most powerful Cybernetic Intelligence, but still have control over my original body too.

If you don't like this idea, there is a strong chance you misunderstood what I meant. (I don't assume this is always the case) but please read my words very carefully, because the way I use them does matter, and what I say is just as important as what I didn't say. Please re-read this post a few times in a row, because It will minimize the amount of people that will reply and force me to re-explain everything again. Do not make quick assumptions after skimming this post! thank you and have a nice day. :)
 
My other more detailed post
From zero to hero, draped with big cherry of power-fantasy on top...

...I wouldn't mind that either. Letting players start with nothing, then have them face bigger fish, have them work for their skills, have them struggle hard with obstacles, have them earn their status, and reward them with coming out on top as the biggest fish, can be a very satisfying gameplay.
 
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