The case for first person cutscenes

[Mebrilia]

The other thread mostly complains about the lack of third person perspective (TPP) in cutscenes. While that perspective certainly has its boons, i would like to point out some benefits for keeping the whole game, including cutscenes, in first person perspective (FPP):

1. Seamless integration into gameplay. In most games, there is a clear distinction between gameplay and cutscenes: Either you walk and fight, or the game switches to "story mode", where you view your characters interaction in a kind of movie format (often even including the black bars at the top & bottom of the screen). You are usually also locked into a kind of dialogue only mode. In Cyberpunk 2077 there is a very smooth and often invisible transition between gameplay and dialogue. In the 2018 demo V often just moved away from non-essential conversations, and was able to react to (or ignore) contextual infos and topics. Basically, cutscenes and dialogue happen during gameplay, and are not a separate mode where your actions are limited to dialogue selection.
2. First person - done right - can be just as dynamic and dramatic as third person. While i agree that some of the best scenes in previous games are in 3rd person, i think that the 2018 demo showed how great the first person perspective can be, if done right: Think about the scene where you talk to Meredith Strout (the corpo agent). If the scene was just first person talking to her like in most 1st person dialgues in most "normal" games, it would admittetly be inferior to a 3rd person cutscene displaying the action. But here, when you get put down & hacked/interrogated by the agent, you actually see and almost feel getting pushed down into the asphalt. You look around, notice the prisoner, the drone taking off to look for Jackie etc. Despite 1st person, it has a very dramatic & dynamic feel, not at all like typical 1st person dialogues in other games, which are often rather static.
3. First person can be just as immersive, perhaps even more so, as third person. Watching the facial reaction and body language of your own character in 3rd person is certainly great if the acting and direction is as good as e.g. in the Witcher 3. It allowed to really appreciate the great acting from all characters including Geralt. I can understand the appeal, since you get really immersed into Geralts personality & dry humor. This kind of immersion is missing to a degree in FPP. However, for this loss you also gain a different kind of immersion: Actually "being" the character V in the world of Cyberpunk 2077. You get to feel the disorientation of getting hit on the head, loosing control/flying though the air. You don't watch your character take a seat in Dexter DeShawns Limo, you take a seat, can look around during the drive, interrupt the conversation etc. You won't see Dexters Bodyguard grabbing you into a chokehold from behind, you notice the arm suddenly choking the life out of you while Dex explains why you fucked up. The difference between gameplay and cutscene is almost invisible. Basically, you don't get immersed into V as a person, you are V.
4. Character customisation is not invisible in first person. Just like in real live, you have several options to see yourself - and a few extra options you (usually) won't have in reality: You get a remote controlled drone (with a camera), you can hack remote cameras, obvious things like a mirror and probably a photo mode/selfie option on smartphone (or equivalent). Also, most people like to dress well even if they cannot always watch themselves. Still, this is imo the only instance where TPP has the upper hand (since in TPP you always see yourself/V).

TL;DR: First person cutscenes & dialogues are not nearly as bad as some seem to think. Don't compare to other games with FPP, instead watch the 2018 gameplay demo and check out how great FPP works there: naked girl pickup by Trauma Team, Dex DeShawn limo ride, Ripperdoc visit, Meredith Strout interaction, the tense situation with Maelstrom etc.

1) Fair enough but people have actually problems or dislike FPP in RPG's this is also why FPP only rpg may be popular but not as much as third person ones or isometric ones.

2) In that i actually partially agree. But everything boils down at the writing that as much good it can be it will never deliver properly because costrained by the fact the game has to be voiced. This means less dialogue,less dialogue option, less content. ((Planescape torment narration is still unmatched.))

3) This is just plain blunt preference. I have arma 3 and even if the game you are allowed switch between visuals as much immersive it can be the visual per se is not a factor of immersion for me. But arma on the other hand has a first person done right ((cam in the eyes of the character)) compared with cyberpunk 2077 ((cam on the chest of the character)) also all this waving of hands in front of my eyes is artificial unrealistic and is a construct making feel everything plastic,gamey and fake.

4) Is not the same thing. I don't play games to play real life.

 

[tomliang]

First person?

You know you gonna design your own character right? we are gonna see it the whole time right?

NO! you are not gonna see your own character design because you are in THE FIRST PERSON VIEW!!!!!

 

[lelxrv]

System Shock, Deus Ex, Bioshock, Thief (minus 3rd game), STALKER, Dishonored series... And CP77 is yet another FPP immersive sim game. It just feels stale. Add there countless online FPP shooters, all those immersive Call of Duty interactive single player movies where NPCs talk to your monitor and I kinda feel bored.

I would sacrifice all 4 arguments in favor of creating the first cyberpunk TPP game.

 

[Keive]

Earlier on I was one of the people to complain about being forced into FPP but then seeing more the game and all, well I didn't care. The game does look amazing and now that it's confirmed we kind of get to see V then I'm fine.
Personally, it isn't immersive for me at all to be in FPP. Perhaps if you try to play as yourself then I agree, FPP is perfect then probably. However, V is pretty set in stone with their own personality, so I wouldn't be seeing them as me, so not immersive in that way.

But I can't lie, the game still looks really cool regardless, I'm thinking of pre-ordering even after being kind of disappointed with the FPP/TPP stuff.

 

[kirell]

1) Fair enough but people have actually problems or dislike FPP in RPG's this is also why FPP only rpg may be popular but not as much as third person ones or isometric ones.

Well, who knows? There were actually plenty of people complaining about TPP in witcher back in the day. Also, most posts on e.g. reddit complaining about FPP cutscenes have a few hundred votes (at best) - Marcins new twitter post on the topic has 800+ likes, and the game is followed by a much larger crowd. The number of posters is tiny compared to the number of gamers. So it could also be a a vocal minority & most people might not care or even know about this. Without some datamining and massive research its really hard to know whether popularity of Cyberpunk 2077 will be increased or decreased by this

2) In that i actually partially agree. But everything boils down at the writing that as much good it can be it will never deliver properly because costrained by the fact the game has to be voiced. This means less dialogue,less dialogue option, less content. ((Planescape torment narration is still unmatched.))

Thats true, but thats not different for TPP: Modern AAA games are expected to have full voice acting, so you will always have some constraint on the number of possible lines. Also, i wonder whether the majority of the modern RPG gamers are even willing to read all that text. Always hurts a little when a new player on the PS:T forums complains that "if he wants to read that much text, he will read a novel".

3) This is just plain blunt preference. I have arma 3 and even if the game you are allowed switch between visuals as much immersive it can be the visual per se is not a factor of immersion for me. But arma on the other hand has a first person done right ((cam in the eyes of the character)) compared with cyberpunk 2077 ((cam on the chest of the character)) also all this waving of hands in front of my eyes is artificial unrealistic and is a construct making feel everything plastic,gamey and fake.

Not exactly sure what you mean here. I didn't play Arma 3, but did you feel the hands and movement in the Cyberpunk 2077 demo FPP cutscenes were bad? Didn't notice problems there, myself...

4) Is not the same thing. I don't play games to play real life.

Well, i play games to play fantasy life. Doesn't mean i want a "go to the toilet" simulation, but always looking at my character is not prerequisite for my enjoyment - even if the game includes character customisation (heresy!)...^^

 

[WacaWaka]

So regarding this hole 100% FPP thing - a year ago when I read that the game will be mostly in the first person I was confused, then I saw a 50 minute demo and everything fell into place, I understood what they were talking about and why this game done in that way. I still like the awakening scene in the apartment from last year, really sets the mood and all, but we all have seen so little of CP2077 and whatever reasons were for going full FPP, they are based on daily experience developing this game. Not that CDPR can do no wrong ( i mean, Gwent Homecoming and recent "Deep Dive" video editing, for example ) yet I'm up to see for myself what this game has to offer and what is authors vision for it. And now I really wonder how this fpp sex scenes will not get silly and estrange.

 

[FiveByWire]

I am noticing something, both on here and on the subreddit, about people who are happy with this change - they always bring up games like Far Cry, Bioshock, Doom, or Quake when they talk about how it could be good.

Those games are not RPGs. This is, supposed, to be an RPG. You can bring up something like Dishonored, but its influence was minute compared to the other "tent-pole" WRPG offerings like Dragon Age, Witcher, Mass Effect, KotOR, Gothic, etc. The vast majority of WRPG people want, at least, third-person cutscenes and conversations.

I honestly don't think that Cyberpunk is an RPG anymore. I got worried when the official marketing changed from RPG to "Action Game" on their marketing, but now it's pretty obvious that they want to create a FPS with RPG elements.

And that's a very sad thing.

 

[kirell]

I am noticing something, both on here and on the subreddit, about people who are happy with this change - they always bring up games like Far Cry, Bioshock, Doom, or Quake when they talk about how it could be good.

I didn't post anything about those games. Actually, i argued that FPP often feels static in other games, but the demo of Cyberpunk 2077 specifically had some great FPP scenes and recommended to watch the FPP scenes in the 2018 gameplay demo.

Those games are not RPGs. This is, supposed, to be an RPG. You can bring up something like Dishonored, but its influence was minute compared to the other "tent-pole" WRPG offerings like Dragon Age, Witcher, Mass Effect, KotOR, Gothic, etc. The vast majority of WRPG people want, at least, third-person cutscenes and conversations.

Always done that way was never a good argument - otherwise you could argue just as well that a real RPG has to be turn based, party based and first person (from the party perspective)...

I honestly don't think that Cyberpunk is an RPG anymore. I got worried when the official marketing changed from RPG to "Action Game" on their marketing, but now it's pretty obvious that they want to create a FPS with RPG elements.

The official marketing has often stressed that Cyberpunk 2077 is a real RPG with a deep stat system, inventory & customisation, choice and consequences, living world etc. If your criterium for a "real" RPG is "must be third person" - ok. But thats not really in line with the history of computer RPGs. First Grid-based first person RPG i played was Might and Magic IV: Clouds of Xeen, from 1992 (but there are even older RPGs like that).

 

[Mebrilia]

I didn't post anything about those games. Actually, i argued that FPP often feels static in other games, but the demo of Cyberpunk 2077 specifically had some great FPP scenes and recommended to watch the FPP scenes in the 2018 gameplay demo.


Always done that way was never a good argument - otherwise you could argue just as well that a real RPG has to be turn based, party based and first person (from the party perspective)...


The official marketing has often stressed that Cyberpunk 2077 is a real RPG with a deep stat system, inventory & customisation, choice and consequences, living world etc. If your criterium for a "real" RPG is "must be third person" - ok. But thats not really in line with the history of computer RPGs. First Grid-based first person RPG i played was Might and Magic IV: Clouds of Xeen, from 1992 (but there are even older RPGs like that).

Except it has not deep stat system. The game has a watered down skill and stat system that is only influencial for combat or stealth. This is another indication of Shooter first then RPG. Heck even Ark survival evolved stat wise. Not skill wise. Has more than cyberpunk 2077 at this point even if it uses a Perk System and not skill same could be said for Fallout4 that is considered by the cummunity a Shooter with lite Roleplay elements but as watered down at it was at least in Fallout4 you had social perks.

I think the whole "We do the first person only game because is more immersive" argument is just blatantly untrue and arrogant considering that for many people first person is indeed immersive but for many people is not.

Also the perception of the game is what CD projekt red must be aware about. Because if you design an RPG and the complaint you are getting are "The graphic is not top notch" along with "Shooting seems like softair it mus punch more." that are the frequent complaint of the people that are not bothered by the FPP only prospective it means the game is percieved more as FPS open world than an RPG.

Even in the so called "Deep Dive" they skipped totally the character creation and about the customization in the interview they spent more than 20 minutes talking about guns and guns customization.

 

[FiveByWire]

Except it has not deep stat system. The game has a watered down skill and stat system that is only influencial for combat or stealth. This is another indication of Shooter first then RPG. Heck even Ark survival evolved stat wise. Not skill wise. Has more than cyberpunk 2077 at this point even if it uses a Perk System and not skill same could be said for Fallout4 that is considered by the cummunity a Shooter with lite Roleplay elements but as watered down at it was at least in Fallout4 you had social perks.

I think the whole "We do the first person only game because is more immersive" argument is just blatantly untrue and arrogant considering that for many people first person is indeed immersive but for many people is not.

Also the perception of the game is what CD projekt red must be aware about. Because if you design an RPG and the complaint you are getting are "The graphic is not top notch" along with "Shooting seems like softair it mus punch more." that are the frequent complaint of the people that are not bothered by the FPP only prospective it means the game is percieved more as FPS open world than an RPG.

Even in the so called "Deep Dive" they skipped totally the character creation and about the customization in the interview they spent more than 20 minutes talking about guns and guns customization.

This. All of this.

Everything shows that Cyberpunk 2027 is a Far Cry-style FPS. Most of the RPG elements are either gone or have been watered-down to non-existence. I just want them to be honest and just admit that this is an action game and stop riding their Witcher good will.

 

[Bloodartist]

System Shock, Deus Ex, Bioshock, Thief (minus 3rd game), STALKER, Dishonored series... And CP77 is yet another FPP immersive sim game. It just feels stale.

Forgive me, but don't all of these other games have a default main character, ie. not customizable?

 

[kirell]

Except it has not deep stat system. The game has a watered down skill and stat system that is only influencial for combat or stealth. This is another indication of Shooter first then RPG. Heck even Ark survival evolved stat wise. Not skill wise. Has more than cyberpunk 2077 at this point even if it uses a Perk System and not skill same could be said for Fallout4 that is considered by the cummunity a Shooter with lite Roleplay elements but as watered down at it was at least in Fallout4 you had social perks.

As far as we currently know, the stat/skill/perk system affects combat, stealth, movement, dialogue options, hacking, engineering+spider drone. Which areas are missing exactly, in your opinion?

Also the perception of the game is what CD projekt red must be aware about. Because if you design an RPG and the complaint you are getting are "The graphic is not top notch" along with "Shooting seems like softair it mus punch more." that are the frequent complaint of the people that are not bothered by the FPP only prospective it means the game is percieved more as FPS open world than an RPG.

Not much was known about the RPG mechanics before, and the situation has only changed a bit recently - most perks are still unknown, and also specific effects of most skills, or whether the attributes have direct effects by themselves or are just skill limits, or what implants are in the game and which abilities you get from them & their upgrades. So much is unknown, but maybe there are almost no complaints about the little that IS known cause its good so far? Also, there are more than enough third person shooters around - FPP or TPP is not a relevant category for RPG or shooter imo.

Even in the so called "Deep Dive" they skipped totally the character creation and about the customization in the interview they spent more than 20 minutes talking about guns and guns customization.

Dont see a reason why this should imply its no RPG. In your typical fantasy RPG you would also talk about swords and (combat) spells... For most people combat is just a very important aspect of games, including RPGs.

 

[Wenceslaus]

I've never been fan of FPV as it has problem to represent peripherical view and surround awarness in general. Better imersion of the FPV, to me, is restricted to jump-scare. That and eye contact in dialogs.

But above all, I dislike the jumping between different perspectivces (especially in dialogs, expecially into TPV) and the "movie" feel camera. So I think that FPV for entire game might work and be benefical to the game.

That said I fail to recognise how FPV cutscene makes the game less RPG (or even more "Far Cry"..eh).

 

[FiveByWire]

I've never been fan of FPV as it has problem to represent peripherical view and surround awarness in general. Better imersion of the FPV, to me, is restricted to jump-scare. That and eye contact in dialogs.

But above all, I dislike the jumping between different perspectivces (especially in dialogs, expecially into TPV) and the "movie" feel camera. So I think that FPV for entire game might work and be benefical to the game.

That said I fail to recognise how FPV cutscene makes the game less RPG (or even more "Far Cry"..eh).

Watch:

vs

Like, just randomly click any point in the videos. Which one, to you, feels more like you're playing a story and which one feels like filler to just get to the next mission?

 

[kirell]

Like, just randomly click any point in the videos. Which one, to you, feels more like you're playing a story and which one feels like filler to just get to the next mission?

Shouldn't you at least compare a Cyberpunk 2077 cutscene (e.g. the one with the Ripperdoc or Meredith Strout) with the game/company that is known for the very best cutscenes in the genre? Comparing Far Cry 5 cut scenes to Red Dead Redemtion is like comparing a Chihuaha with a Lion - then concluding that all cats are superior to dogs...

 

[FiveByWire]

Shouldn't you at least compare a Cyberpunk 2077 cutscene (e.g. the one with the Ripperdoc or Meredith Strout) with the game/company that is known for the very best cutscenes in the genre? Comparing Far Cry 5 cut scenes to Red Dead Redemtion is like comparing a Chihuaha with a Lion - then concluding that all cats are superior to dogs...

The ripperdoc scene is in the first gameplay trailer, which is basically dead according to CDPR since most of the things in it regarding character creation, third-person cutscenes, skills, movement, etc have all been changed. You can't compare a 100% bullshot video of pre-alpha "proof-of-concept" footage to a final product.

I'd compare third-person dialog and cutscenes favorably from The Witcher to anything shown in the most recent deep dive, too.

 

[kirell]

I'd compare third-person dialog and cutscenes favorably from The Witcher to anything shown in the most recent deep dive, too.

Even though i disagree with your assessment, its at least a fair comparison.

 

[FiveByWire]

Even though i disagree with your assessment, its at least a fair comparison.

I mean, I was using a game from 2010 vs a game from 2018. I thought I was being fair. Unfair would be comparing RDR 2 vs Far Cry 5.

 

[kirell]

I mean, I was using a game from 2010 vs a game from 2018. I thought I was being fair. Unfair would be comparing RDR 2 vs Far Cry 5.

Wouldn't really consider it more unfair. Quality of a cutscene is more than just graphics tech. Dramatic tension, mood, atmosphere, quality of the voice actors, sound, music and more plays into this. There are some companies that are really exceptional, like Naughty Dog and Rockstar Games. E.g. i would say The Last of Us (2013) has better cutscenes than most games released in 2019.

 

[FiveByWire]

No, not really. Quality of a cutscene is more than just graphics tech. Dramatic tension, mood, atmosphere, quality of the voice actors, sound, music and more plays into this. There are some companies that are really exceptional, like Naughty Dog and Rockstar Games. E.g. i would say The Last of Us (2013) has better cutscenes than most games released in 2019.

I meant that Rockstar has evolved in its storytelling and mood-crafting ability since 2010. RDR2 can seamlessly move from third-person to a more cinematic view of its cutscenes and dialog. The Witcher 3 was really good with it as well.