The case for first person cutscenes

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Does FPP or TPP affect you game purchase decision?

  • Only FPP - first person, fine by me

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Only TPP - third person, fine by me

    Votes: 1 50.0%
  • FPP or TPP - both are fine

    Votes: 1 50.0%

  • Total voters
    2
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I saw this thread, and I think my post (which I am quoting here) from the other thread is well worth the relevancy to quote it here.

After thinking very strongly for some time I am now very confident that I am surprisingly strongly looking forward to an entirely (or almost entirely) first person perspective game, because it will add to the immersion and it will feel different and more real (in a fantasy kind of way) than any video game I have ever played before. A lot of people (not here, just way way out there far away somewhere else on the internet that I wont mention the names of, even lots of AAA developers I also wont mention the names of) Throw around buzzwords like


"Immerrrshunnnn" lol
And that's cool an everything, but I get the feeling that those individuals, (which I'm not making fun of, I think they're great people and I love them) Do not fully, how do you say, I guess immerse themselves deep enough into that actual meaning of that word. Immersion really truly means something, and I will help understand why it truly means something.

Once upon a time, I knew what it meant, but I didn't "Know" what it meant like, really "KNOW"
So one day I saw a movie I really enjoyed so deeply because it was so in tune with what I like that I felt that the people who made that movie KNEW ME. I suddenly felt overwhelmed with this feeling of "IMMERSION!!!!!!!" that I had never felt before.



It was then at that moment that I truly finally knew for the first time ever what immersion really was. I FELT LIKE I WAS THERE. It was AMAZING.

This opinion I have is coming from (me) a person that is ALL about customization. I'm a customization maniac. I love customization, and I want to be able to customize everything from my vehicles, to my weapons, to my clothing, to my home, to my characters body and even more, But I still want them game to be fully FPP, as long as I have many and constant opportunities to see my own character including but not limited to mirrors and motorcycles 3rd person. I want many more options than that. I know we can all have our cake and eat it too. WE CAN HAVE IT BOTH WAYS! I let go of all limitations. I accept the possibility of the impossibility. I know CDProjektRed can do this, because they know how things be, and it DO.


Trust them. They are the chosen ones.
It just seemed like a shame to not bring this discussion here, because it does seem to fit properly into this discussion as well.
 
I meant that Rockstar has evolved in its storytelling and mood-crafting ability since 2010. RDR2 can seamlessly move from third-person to a more cinematic view of its cutscenes and dialog. The Witcher 3 was really good with it as well.

Yeah exactly. Which is why unless Rockstar, Naughty Dog or CD Project Red creates a FPP game, its a bit unfair to compare the games created by the best storytellers & moodcrafters to the likes of Far Cry 5 just because the former are TPP and the latter is FPP. I'm not 100% sure that CDPR can pull it off with Cyberpunk 2077, but at least their scenes in the 2018 demo (meredith strout, girl rescue mission, Dex limo ride etc) give me confidence their FFP cutscenes will be leagues better than those in Far Cry 5. Don't know about the 2019 deep dive video since was so cut up that almost no dialogue cutscene was played from start to finish, unfortunately.
 
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The other thread mostly complains about the lack of third person perspective (TPP) in cutscenes. While that perspective certainly has its boons, i would like to point out some benefits for keeping the whole game, including cutscenes, in first person perspective (FPP):
  1. Seamless integration into gameplay. In most games, there is a clear distinction between gameplay and cutscenes: Either you walk and fight, or the game switches to "story mode", where you view your characters interaction in a kind of movie format (often even including the black bars at the top & bottom of the screen). You are usually also locked into a kind of dialogue only mode. In Cyberpunk 2077 there is a very smooth and often invisible transition between gameplay and dialogue. In the 2018 demo V often just moved away from non-essential conversations, and was able to react to (or ignore) contextual infos and topics. Basically, cutscenes and dialogue happen during gameplay, and are not a separate mode where your actions are limited to dialogue selection.
  2. First person - done right - can be just as dynamic and dramatic as third person. While i agree that some of the best scenes in previous games are in 3rd person, i think that the 2018 demo showed how great the first person perspective can be, if done right: Think about the scene where you talk to Meredith Strout (the corpo agent). If the scene was just first person talking to her like in most 1st person dialgues in most "normal" games, it would admittetly be inferior to a 3rd person cutscene displaying the action. But here, when you get put down & hacked/interrogated by the agent, you actually see and almost feel getting pushed down into the asphalt. You look around, notice the prisoner, the drone taking off to look for Jackie etc. Despite 1st person, it has a very dramatic & dynamic feel, not at all like typical 1st person dialogues in other games, which are often rather static.
  3. First person can be just as immersive, perhaps even more so, as third person. Watching the facial reaction and body language of your own character in 3rd person is certainly great if the acting and direction is as good as e.g. in the Witcher 3. It allowed to really appreciate the great acting from all characters including Geralt. I can understand the appeal, since you get really immersed into Geralts personality & dry humor. This kind of immersion is missing to a degree in FPP. However, for this loss you also gain a different kind of immersion: Actually "being" the character V in the world of Cyberpunk 2077. You get to feel the disorientation of getting hit on the head, loosing control/flying though the air. You don't watch your character take a seat in Dexter DeShawns Limo, you take a seat, can look around during the drive, interrupt the conversation etc. You won't see Dexters Bodyguard grabbing you into a chokehold from behind, you notice the arm suddenly choking the life out of you while Dex explains why you fucked up. The difference between gameplay and cutscene is almost invisible. Basically, you don't get immersed into V as a person, you are V.
  4. Character customisation is not invisible in first person. Just like in real live, you have several options to see yourself - and a few extra options you (usually) won't have in reality: You get a remote controlled drone (with a camera), you can hack remote cameras, obvious things like a mirror and probably a photo mode/selfie option on smartphone (or equivalent). Also, most people like to dress well even if they cannot always watch themselves. Still, this is imo the only instance where TPP has the upper hand (since in TPP you always see yourself/V).
TL;DR: First person cutscenes & dialogues are not nearly as bad as some seem to think. Don't compare to other games with FPP, instead watch the 2018 gameplay demo and check out how great FPP works there: naked girl pickup by Trauma Team, Dex DeShawn limo ride, Ripperdoc visit, Meredith Strout interaction, the tense situation with Maelstrom etc.
These are awesome points.
 
The ripperdoc scene is in the first gameplay trailer, which is basically dead according to CDPR since most of the things in it regarding character creation, third-person cutscenes, skills, movement, etc have all been changed. You can't compare a 100% bullshot video of pre-alpha "proof-of-concept" footage to a final product.

I'd compare third-person dialog and cutscenes favorably from The Witcher to anything shown in the most recent deep dive, too.

But you comparing it to completly different game from antoher company, different engine? I think that the fisrt gamplay video will have much much more common to the final game than the FC5 (I do not believe it is 100% different).

Anyway, do you say that you believe that the scenes (Ripperdoc, Royce negotion over the bot...) can/will not be implemented or that they are bad?
If you belevie they cannot, then why and how "movie" approach could be?
If you believe they are bad, then we just disgree - I would prefer this over the RDR movie approach.
 
But you comparing it to completly different game from antoher company, different engine? I think that the fisrt gamplay video will have much much more common to the final game than the FC5 (I do not believe it is 100% different).

Anyway, do you say that you believe that the scenes (Ripperdoc, Royce negotion over the bot...) can/will not be implemented or that they are bad?
If you belevie they cannot, then why and how "movie" approach could be?
If you believe they are bad, then we just disgree - I would prefer this over the RDR movie approach.
Cyberpunk will be in the same genre as FC5 (FPS Action Game), so what's wrong with comparing it? It would be like saying you couldn't compare The Witcher to Dragon Age, even when they're both third-person RPGs.
 
@CyberpunkGame , @CDPROJEKTRED Mike Pondsmith saying first person puts you in it... It doesn't, not even a little. Makes you dizzy, does NOT give you clear vision of your surroundings, its only is useful in pockets. I was able to enjoy Deus Ex do to the going from first to third that actually puts you in it! First person only somewhat works in VR not great either. With GTA 5 and RDR2 being the highest money makers and biggest sellers you would think that tells Mike and developers something, but it doesn't, they are arrogant as hell and couldn't careless about loosing a crap load of buyers and being content not selling to the masses, RDR2 not only great story but user player friendly and you can see what your damn Character looks like!! Full game First person is 100% a deal breaker for me and I am super bummed, canceling my per-order immediately. This is not only frustrating but super disappointing! PASS!
 
I wonder what's the point to customize our character if we wouldn't be able to see it, i find first person cutscenes a little bit weird IMO.
 
Personally I'm not worried about cutscenes being in FPP, just makes it more immersive. Although one thing I hope they add is a really good photo mode that'll pan out to see your character with filters and such. I love taking really artistic/interesting angled pics and sharing them with people.
 
Maybe just me . But 1st person was never that immersive for me , since all I see is us (The character) either holding a camera or being the camera :sneaky:
.

This.

They can never exactly replicate what it would truly look like from the main character's point of view, so it all tends to look like you're watching footage recorded on someone's I-phone rather than seeing through their eyes.

I'm ok with the majority of the game being FPP and am willing to give CDPR the benefit of the doubt on how that plays out, I just don't buy into FPP being any more immersive than TPP.

I would be slightly disappointed however if there were no TPP cutscenes at all. The bits in V's apartment and in the elevator during the 2018 gameplay footage were cinematic & very well done, so I was hoping we might get a little more of the same sprinkled throughout the game.
 
This.

They can never exactly replicate what it would truly look like from the main character's point of view, so it all tends to look like you're watching footage recorded on someone's I-phone rather than seeing through their eyes.

I'm ok with the majority of the game being FPP and am willing to give CDPR the benefit of the doubt on how that plays out, I just don't buy into FPP being any more immersive than TPP.

I would be slightly disappointed however if there were no TPP cutscenes at all. The bits in V's apartment and in the elevator during the 2018 gameplay footage were cinematic & very well done, so I was hoping we might get a little more of the same sprinkled throughout the game.
the camera doesn't blink...:ROFLMAO:
 
if first person is more immersive, then why did CDPR have their e3 2019 CGI trailer (more like a cutscene than trailer) in 3rd person where we could see V? Because...........................3RD PERSON IS MORE IMMERSIVE.

Their PR 1st person immersion tactic has backfired on them. Their fans have turned on them. They have to cave or they won't recover from this
 
if first person is more immersive, then why did CDPR have their e3 2019 CGI trailer (more like a cutscene than trailer) in 3rd person where we could see V? Because...........................3RD PERSON IS MORE IMMERSIVE.

Their PR 1st person immersion tactic has backfired on them. Their fans have turned on them. They have to cave or they won't recover from this
It's probably just a cost-cutting measure. I don't think there's really an argument that cinematic games like The Witcher, Red Dead Revolver 2, or the Mass Effect series are less immersive than something like Fallout 3 or Far Cry.

Why spend all that extra time doing the modeling and rigging for third-person cutscenes when you can just set the camera in one spot, point it forward, and just animate only what the limited pov shows?
 
if first person is more immersive, then why did CDPR have their e3 2019 CGI trailer (more like a cutscene than trailer) in 3rd person where we could see V? Because...........................3RD PERSON IS MORE IMMERSIVE.

Their PR 1st person immersion tactic has backfired on them. Their fans have turned on them. They have to cave or they won't recover from this[/QUOTE
It's probably because they wanted the audience to get a feel for what the character looks like. However Third Person is in no way more immersive than first in anyway at all, and never will be. First person is far more for obvious reasons. The only people who've turned on them are the ones mad they aren't getting the game the way they want. And CDPR are in no way caving, they're doing it the way they want as it's their IP. If they were giving in wouldn't they be giving people TPP to the ones that want it? And what do you mean they won't recover? There are already tons of people that are going to be buying it. Don't think CDPR are going to be struggling over the few people who aren't going to because they didn't get what they think they're entitled to.
 
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if first person is more immersive, then why did CDPR have their e3 2019 CGI trailer (more like a cutscene than trailer) in 3rd person where we could see V? Because...........................3RD PERSON IS MORE IMMERSIVE.

The point i was trying to make is really not that 3rd person or 1st person is more immersive, but that both create a different kind of immersion: 3rd person cutscenes allows you to see more of the protagonist, a person separate from you. Its like watching the actions and reactions of another person in real life very closely and thus getting to know them really well. I agree that in this regard, 3rd person is better. But 1st person creates an immediacy that brings you closer to being V or at least experiencing Vs journey yourself: You are not watching a protagonist doing stuff, you are doing stuff being in the skin of and through the eyes of the protagonist.

Their PR 1st person immersion tactic has backfired on them. Their fans have turned on them. They have to cave or they won't recover from this
Oh no, all is lost! Unless they go down to their knees and beg for forgiveness for not following your wishes. There must be thousands, nay millions with the same opinion - maybe more...

... or maybe not. Don't see much indication that this is much different from or bigger than other so called "controversies". People saw the 2018 demo with only very short and minor scene-setting TPP cutscenes (appartement overview, elevator ride), while all mayor cutscenes (girl rescue, Limo ride with dex, ripperdoc visit, meredith strout, maelstrom) were in FPP - and the reaction was very positive...
 
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I think First Person supports more different kind of music, wheres in Third Person, you will need to use more atmospheric stuff and such, aka background music, because you get disconnected from your character. So I kinda like First Person myself.
 
I prefer reacting and experiencing the game as me, and not reacting to emotions somebody thought that my character will be experiencing right now. If i wanted that I would watch a movie. So I'm for FPP cutscenes. For example, ripperdoc, Meredith and Dexter ones are amazing, and perfectly showing what is possible to achieve with that approach. I just cannot imagine the TPP Dexter scene in a small, closed space the car is - it would look awkward at best, stupid and glitching at worst.
 
I prefer reacting and experiencing the game as me, and not reacting to emotions somebody thought that my character will be experiencing right now. If i wanted that I would watch a movie. So I'm for FPP cutscenes. For example, ripperdoc, Meredith and Dexter ones are amazing, and perfectly showing what is possible to achieve with that approach. I just cannot imagine the TPP Dexter scene in a small, closed space the car is - it would look awkward at best, stupid and glitching at worst.
Completely concur, imagine seeing that Dexter Deshawn car scene and the TPP camera being so close that you can actually see inside your characters head mesh. Seeing the tongue, teeth, and bulging eyes, that would be really annoying.
 
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