The hacking minigame needs to be relatively simple as well, because you wouldn't want the player bogged down in a 10 minute "chess match" against enemy A.I. programs when all they're trying to do is hack a turret to deal with a couple mobs before moving on to the next batch of disposable goons. If the system were more complex solo & techie builds would be preferable as Netrunning would significantly slow the pace of the game.
Any sort of complex hack should really be saved for major story points.
The Witcher 3 drove me crazy running around for hours desperately searching for the right combination of herbs and spices and filling up my inventory to the point I felt like I was gonna choke lol. I definitely did not enjoy that part. Therese a solid difference between complexity and depth, and then just outright tedium and frustration. It took hours of effort rummaging around the forest and swimming under water collecting a million different little herbs and monster parts, it just drove me insane. To me it was a very painful grind, and the inventory didn't have enough space, but even if it did, I still never want to do that ever again.
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Good point.
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Customization heavily affects Immersion, and Immersion is a huge part of "Role-Playing" it's an RPG. The more personalized you can make the game, the more you can blend into V and assume their role and play as them- the more into the game you can get. Less customization and less options and features (which I'm worried about, but I also trust CDPR)
Less options and features and customization etc = less immersion. I find it difficult or impossible to assume the role of any video game characters in any kind of video game if I'm not able to customize and personalize them. If there is no, or very weak customization, I feel intensely detached from the character and struggle to relate to them or care about them as a character. When I lose interest in the character, I lose interest in their story, and then I lose interest in the entire game world, and the entire game itself. This is why Heavily Advanced Customization is severely important to me, regardless of the type of genre of the game, but especially for RPG's or RPG-related genre games. I can completely understand how many other people would feel the same way.
Just because it's not "sandbox" doesn't mean those things are any less valuable to the game, the character, the story, the immersion, the game world. Style matters a lot. Imagine if the entire world was a Utopia and all the worlds problems were solved, but it was all grey and dull and depressing and sad, and it was always cloudy and raining and food didn't taste like anything. That would ruin it, wouldn't it? The answer is yes. Even in a world like Cyberpunk2077, as bad as things are for the people, they still try and find food that tastes good, even as they're being shot at by dangerous corporations or gangs. They still value style and try to look good and feel good, because without those things, nothing else would be worth it.
The Witcher 3 drove me crazy running around for hours desperately searching for the right combination of herbs and spices and filling up my inventory to the point I felt like I was gonna choke lol. I definitely did not enjoy that part. Therese a solid difference between complexity and depth, and then just outright tedium and frustration. It took hours of effort rummaging around the forest and swimming under water collecting a million different little herbs and monster parts, it just drove me insane. To me it was a very painful grind, and the inventory didn't have enough space, but even if it did, I still never want to do that ever again.
I have barely dipped my toes in Witcher 3 (still can't get anywhere near interested let alone excited due to generic fantasy setting and lack of context), but the alchemy looked quite tedious and I frankly had zero clue about it.
I decided early that unless there was something I was forced to have, I was going to ignore alchemy. I have no experience in earlier witchers and had zero context or knowledge about alchemy. Complexity for the sake of complexity is just dead weight. I could not find a good answer to: "why should I spend the effort?"
I have barely dipped my toes in Witcher 3 (still can't get anywhere near interested let alone excited due to generic fantasy setting and lack of context), but the alchemy looked quite tedious and I frankly had zero clue about it.
I decided early that unless there was something I was forced to have, I was going to ignore alchemy. I have no experience in earlier witchers and had zero context or knowledge about alchemy. Complexity for the sake of complexity is just dead weight.
The Witcher 3 wasn't a complex game, it was just filled with random nonsense. The alchemy system really wasn't that hard to understand, it was just a lot of junk collecting and feeling like you could never get rid of anything because you MIGHT need it for some random potion later on.
Alchemy focus + no quen + hard+ = completely new witcher experience. Problem was, in witcher 3 there was no real incentive to get into alchemy since you can just cast quen, fight a bit, get hit, roll away, cast quen, repeat. Worked in all difficulties including Death March. Maybe add a swallow potion or two. But no need for parry, sidestep and also oils, bombs and potions. If there is no real benefit, there is no incentive to understand the alchemy system which i liked a lot. Even had a paper map with my favorite rare plant collection spots...
The hacking minigame needs to be relatively simple as well, because you wouldn't want the player bogged down in a 10 minute "chess match" against enemy A.I. programs when all they're trying to do is hack a turret to deal with a couple mobs before moving on to the next batch of disposable goons. If the system were more complex solo & techie builds would be preferable as Netrunning would significantly slow the pace of the game.
Any sort of complex hack should really be saved for major story points.
I am also reminded of an analogy from the earlier days of computing - by which I mean pre-internet as we know it, which links very nicely into Cyberpunk.
"It's very hard to beat the bandwidth of a station wagon loaded with magnetic tape, driving at highway speeds"
--
It is also worth noting that the 10 minute chess game, analogy you use is exactly what the problem was with Netrunning in Cyberpunk 2020. Netrunning was basically a mini-campaign especially for the net runner.
Complex mini games that take hours to complete - and potentially learn in some cases - turns net running into a slower more annoying way to complete a section that you could do in half the time by shooting everyone.
It is also worth noting that the 10 minute chess game, analogy you use is exactly what the problem was with Netrunning in Cyberpunk 2020. Netrunning was basically a mini-campaign especially for the net runner.
Complex mini games that take hours to complete - and potentially learn in some cases - turns net running into a slower more annoying way to complete a section that you could do in half the time by shooting everyone.
Important distinction to make: netrunning via cyberspace didn't work in a tabletop RPG which is a MULTIPLAYER game. Other players were forced to wait for netrunner, and the party was divided. There is no particular reason why Netrunning can't work in a SINGLEplayer game. If you want to spend your time deep diving the cyberspace and do that shadow campaign, it's just you and your computer. Totally possible, although also completely different gameplay from Solo and other 'classes', since it has little connnection to real world.
But it seems that netrunning as a whole was completely changed in what I assume is the wake of Cyberpunk red. In other words, tabletop RPG first. Hacking seems all local, hacking doors, cybernetics, vending machines etc. I am not fond of this. Numerous games have done the local hacking of electronic devices. and I mean a million of them. That is nothing new. Whereas Cyberspace was unique to cyberpunk, and not really done in other games. I can only name Shadowrun games by Harebrained schemes that had something resembling cyberspace. Color me disappointed if cyberspace only appears in fixed and linear story cutscenes.
ps. I recently have started playing in a tabletop campaign in Carbon 2185, which is practically a cyberpunk version of D&D 5th edition, and cyberspace or internet is not even mentioned in the basic rulebook... But a class called Hacker exists.
There are apparently different programs you can buy or unlock via perks (or gain via hacking), but they didn't tell us the specifics. If i understand it correctly, those minigames are rare, like 1/mission - you do them to gain basic access, but as soon as you have this access, your further hacking actions are limited by skill, programs and context - but not locked by minigames.
That seems pretty cool, but I am a little bit disappointed if that's true. I wanted to hack systems to gain access and then hack everything inside once I'm already inside to gain more control and deeper access, and netrun myself into the hacks so I could control every system I touch. That would be so cool
The hacking minigame needs to be relatively simple as well, because you wouldn't want the player bogged down in a 10 minute "chess match" against enemy A.I. programs when all they're trying to do is hack a turret to deal with a couple mobs before moving on to the next batch of disposable goons. If the system were more complex solo & techie builds would be preferable as Netrunning would significantly slow the pace of the game.
Any sort of complex hack should really be saved for major story points.
I wouldn't mind a very good fun long complex hack very often if I was personally able to choose when where and why I was doing it, and from a safe hiding place. Then I wouldn't mind. Not much things comfier than hiding in some kind of good hiding place and hacking an entire system and taking it over for your own benefit. Of course I would use it for good though, I don't really play villain characters tbh. But yea, I need some really deep fun hacks. I want to hack everything in Cyberpunk2077. Maybe even the entire city itself. I wonder if every system I hack gets added to my processing power? Maybe after every successful network hack I can add a remote access radar dish or antennae to it so I can daisy chain together all the places and things I ever hacked into my own secret Night-City-Wide HAXXOR network, until I'm able to see everywhere, be anywhere, do anything...
-just filled with random nonsense.
-The alchemy system really wasn't that hard to understand,
-it was just a lot of junk collecting and
-feeling like you could never get rid of anything because you MIGHT need it for some random potion later on.
Alchemy focus + no quen + hard+ = completely new witcher experience. Problem was, in witcher 3 there was no real incentive to get into alchemy since you can just cast quen, fight a bit, get hit, roll away, cast quen, repeat. Worked in all difficulties including Death March. Maybe add a swallow potion or two. But no need for parry, sidestep and also oils, bombs and potions. If there is no real benefit, there is no incentive to understand the alchemy system which i liked a lot. Even had a paper map with my favorite rare plant collection spots...
The alchemy system would have been much more fun if I didn't have to endlessly grind the forest for herbs and monster parts, and if instead the game just automatically assumed Geralt had done this already in some portion of time when the player isn't looking at the screen.
-player saves their game, turns off computer, goes to sleep
-this is when Geralt is like seriously getting his sleeps in and maybe collecting the herbs and monster parts
THEN- the alchemy gets turned into a fun crafting mini game where you have infinite ingredients of any ingredients you want or need. You do good in the alchemy crafting mini game, you get the potion you want. (not too difficult so it doesn't turn into another grind) and this also frees up tons of inventory space and weight and all that.
I am also reminded of an analogy from the earlier days of computing - by which I mean pre-internet as we know it, which links very nicely into Cyberpunk.
"It's very hard to beat the bandwidth of a station wagon loaded with magnetic tape, driving at highway speeds"
--
It is also worth noting that the 10 minute chess game, analogy you use is exactly what the problem was with Netrunning in Cyberpunk 2020. Netrunning was basically a mini-campaign especially for the net runner.
Complex mini games that take hours to complete - and potentially learn in some cases - turns net running into a slower more annoying way to complete a section that you could do in half the time by shooting everyone.
This is why I would honestly make hacking vs netrunning an optional exploitation method of electronics and networks.
options:
1. hack normally with hacking mini game, unlocks some control, etc.
or
2. hack normally, but then after some success, part way through begin the DEEP NETRUN... wooooshh
this essentially sends V into the cyber dimension to fully deeply hack the system and completely take it over to gain full control of all systems, like a vvvvvvvverrry high level hack that makes them the boss of it.
most hacks could be the normal hacking mini games, some optional ones V could deep netrun them, and some deep netruns would obviously be parts of important events in the game.
I'm very curious what CDPR has planned!
Important distinction to make: netrunning via cyberspace didn't work in a tabletop RPG which is a MULTIPLAYER game. Other players were forced to wait for netrunner, and the party was divided. There is no particular reason why Netrunning can't work in a SINGLEplayer game. If you want to spend your time deep diving the cyberspace and do that shadow campaign, it's just you and your computer. Totally possible, although also completely different gameplay from Solo and other 'classes', since it has little connnection to real world.
But it seems that netrunning as a whole was completely changed in what I assume is the wake of Cyberpunk red. In other words, tabletop RPG first. Hacking seems all local, hacking doors, cybernetics, vending machines etc. I am not fond of this. Numerous games have done the local hacking of electronic devices. and I mean a million of them. That is nothing new. Whereas Cyberspace was unique to cyberpunk, and not really done in other games. I can only name Shadowrun games by Harebrained schemes that had something resembling cyberspace. Color me disappointed if cyberspace only appears in fixed and linear story cutscenes.
ps. I recently have started playing in a tabletop campaign in Carbon 2185, which is practically a cyberpunk version of D&D 5th edition, and cyberspace or internet is not even mentioned in the basic rulebook... But a class called Hacker exists.
But maybe, JUST maybe... What if V at a certain point in the game learns how to cross the black wall and use that to hack any network anywhere from a great distance, something that other people are not able to do? very good advantage vs literally any other faction...
That seems pretty cool, but I am a little bit disappointed if that's true. I wanted to hack systems to gain access and then hack everything inside once I'm already inside to gain more control and deeper access, and netrun myself into the hacks so I could control every system I touch. That would be so cool
If you played Cyberpunk 2020, old-school netrunning doesn't exist anymore for most people in 2077 (and RED timeline as well). After the big crash, the net was locked behind the black wall. So "normal" nets are now local networks, which are not part of the global net and need to be hacked & accessed locally (as seen in minigame + contextual hacks / direct connection hacks in the trailer). In P&P Cyberpunk Red, this is so netrunners are actually part of the party and need to come along when infiltrating a building, they can't just netrun from the relative safety of their home anymore, disconnected from the action. However the black wall, whats behind it and "true" netrunning seems to be a major theme for Cyberpunk 2077, so we can also expect to do old-school full VR deep dive netruns (like the first such experience by V in the intro of the new trailer)...
The alchemy system would have been much more fun if I didn't have to endlessly grind the forest for herbs and monster parts, and if instead the game just automatically assumed Geralt had done this already in some portion of time when the player isn't looking at the screen.
-player saves their game, turns off computer, goes to sleep
-this is when Geralt is like seriously getting his sleeps in and maybe collecting the herbs and monster parts
THEN- the alchemy gets turned into a fun crafting mini game where you have infinite ingredients of any ingredients you want or need. You do good in the alchemy crafting mini game, you get the potion you want. (not too difficult so it doesn't turn into another grind) and this also frees up tons of inventory space and weight and all that.
Well in witcher 3 alchemy was already extremely simplified: You need to buy or gather the ingredients for a given potion only once, all subsequent brews are done automatically and without ingredients. You just spending 1 single alcohol during rest to replace all oils, bombs and potions you already know... So your idea is kinda so good, they already did it...
"RPG" which they themselves removed from the games description. Idk, seems less and less RPG as we go along. I've seen the same skill tree stuff from dozens of regulation action shooters. Dialogue we've seen so far has looked super shallow. Really makes me question how much choice you're really going to have in the game. If it's as dull as "kill or don't kill" this person that might show up later on.... well, that's awfully poor for an RPG. So far, this looks like Fallout 4 in a cyberpunk world to me
If you played Cyberpunk 2020, old-school netrunning doesn't exist anymore for most people in 2077 (and RED timeline as well). After the big crash, the net was locked behind the black wall. So "normal" nets are now local networks, which are not part of the global net and need to be hacked & accessed locally (as seen in minigame + contextual hacks / direct connection hacks in the trailer). In P&P Cyberpunk Red, this is so netrunners are actually part of the party and need to come along when infiltrating a building, they can't just netrun from the relative safety of their home anymore, disconnected from the action. However the black wall, whats behind it and "true" netrunning seems to be a major theme for Cyberpunk 2077, so we can also expect to do old-school full VR deep dive netruns (like the first such experience by V in the intro of the new trailer)...
I hope there's tons of the deep netrunning, like how I described in other posts, but also in many other ways. I'm just so excited and trust CDPR.
Please help me understand, is there multiple different kinds of netrunning? I previously didn't think there was, but because of how you say that, it makes me doubt that now. Please clarify?
Well in witcher 3 alchemy was already extremely simplified: You need to buy or gather the ingredients for a given potion only once, all subsequent brews are done automatically and without ingredients. You just spending 1 single alcohol during rest to replace all oils, bombs and potions you already know... So your idea is kinda so good, they already did it...
No... No.... NOO.... that can't be...? THAT CAN'T BE!!??? how is it possible that I struggled for so long, hours and days and hours and days and hours and days.... and I never ever EVER realized this not even once? I knew that alcohol would replenish some potion or something, but I thought it would only replenish a stack of potion if the stack was 4/4 and I still had one left like 1/4 and it would turn it back into 4/4. The game never gave me the impression that it would magically refill 100% of all potions I had ever made in the past, and overfill my inventory to the brim with tons of bottles out of nowhere... IF.... IFFFF..... this is true... The game didn't explain it well enough the way that you did. You have no idea how long I spent in the forest, fighting monsters and gathering thousands and thousands of herbs to remake potions again, You have no idea, the horror. THE HORROR!!!!!
mind = blown
why
whyyyyyyy
Whyyyyyyyy didn't the game block me from making the same potion twice, and say "No dummy, use an alcohol!"
"RPG" which they themselves removed from the games description. Idk, seems less and less RPG as we go along. I've seen the same skill tree stuff from dozens of regulation action shooters. Dialogue we've seen so far has looked super shallow. Really makes me question how much choice you're really going to have in the game. If it's as dull as "kill or don't kill" this person that might show up later on.... well, that's awfully poor for an RPG. So far, this looks like Fallout 4 in a cyberpunk world to me
I hope there's tons of the deep netrunning, like how I described in other posts, but also in many other ways. I'm just so excited and trust CDPR.
Please help me understand, is there multiple different kinds of netrunning? I previously didn't think there was, but because of how you say that, it makes me doubt that now. Please clarify?
I would love to, but thats just what i cobbled together from the P&P Cyberpunk 2020 and Cyberpunk RED books as well as the info thats in the trailers/interviews. Here is my take:
Basically, the deep net - which was just "the net" till the crash / released rogue AIs / soulkiller etc. still exists. The black wall was created to contain that whole mess. Since the deep net is basically a huge, mysterious prison - nobody knows whats happening beyond the black wall - it is no longer used for your daily networking and communication. It also wasn't replaced by another big net. Instead there are now many local networks, so if one of them gets corrupted it can be easily shut down and replaced. Most regular hacking is done in those small local networks. This is why you usually need to find a local access point and cannot hack from (very) far away. If i understand it correctly, thats what those hacking minigames are about. As soon as you have basic access, you can hack everything in this local networks if you have the skills/programs. Speculation: i think if you have direct connection (e.g. use your data link cable to directly access someone as shown in the trailer) you won't need basic network access.
Diving into the deep net - the thing the netrunners were doing prior to the crash - is probably a big part of the story and the mission in the demo is basically about gaining the trust of the vodoo boys, so they show you how its done. Even if V has high hacking skills, its unlikely that he is able to access the deep net prior to the Voodo Boys mission. After that, who knows. I hope there are many deep dives, but no information was leaked about that (as far as i know).
No... No.... NOO.... that can't be...? THAT CAN'T BE!!??? how is it possible that I struggled for so long, hours and days and hours and days and hours and days.... and I never ever EVER realized this not even once? I knew that alcohol would replenish some potion or something, but I thought it would only replenish a stack of potion if the stack was 4/4 and I still had one left like 1/4 and it would turn it back into 4/4. The game never gave me the impression that it would magically refill 100% of all potions I had ever made in the past, and overfill my inventory to the brim with tons of bottles out of nowhere... IF.... IFFFF..... this is true... The game didn't explain it well enough the way that you did. You have no idea how long I spent in the forest, fighting monsters and gathering thousands and thousands of herbs to remake potions again, You have no idea, the horror. THE HORROR!!!!!
Wow, sorry to be the bearer of such bad (or good?) news . At least you are able to enjoy a bit more hassle-free Alchemy if you ever do another playthrough...
Important distinction to make: netrunning via cyberspace didn't work in a tabletop RPG which is a MULTIPLAYER game. Other players were forced to wait for netrunner, and the party was divided. There is no particular reason why Netrunning can't work in a SINGLEplayer game. If you want to spend your time deep diving the cyberspace and do that shadow campaign, it's just you and your computer. Totally possible, although also completely different gameplay from Solo and other 'classes', since it has little connnection to real world.
But it seems that netrunning as a whole was completely changed in what I assume is the wake of Cyberpunk red. In other words, tabletop RPG first. Hacking seems all local, hacking doors, cybernetics, vending machines etc. I am not fond of this. Numerous games have done the local hacking of electronic devices. and I mean a million of them. That is nothing new. Whereas Cyberspace was unique to cyberpunk, and not really done in other games. I can only name Shadowrun games by Harebrained schemes that had something resembling cyberspace. Color me disappointed if cyberspace only appears in fixed and linear story cutscenes.
ps. I recently have started playing in a tabletop campaign in Carbon 2185, which is practically a cyberpunk version of D&D 5th edition, and cyberspace or internet is not even mentioned in the basic rulebook... But a class called Hacker exists.
To be more precise it's in the wake of the 4th Corporate war. Cyberspace is a mess it's there but it's overrun by AI and locked behind the black wall. The corps don't want the AI's messing with their stuff, normal people don't want the AI's messing with their stuff (With some notable exceptions like the Voodoo Boys) so it was walled off and everything became localised.
I actually think it will be interesting to see what direction you - as V - decide to go in. Side with NetWatch and keep the wall up, and in a sense keep deep dark cyberspace locked away. Or side with the Voodoo Boys, and possibly some other folk, and let the AI's rampage but open up Cyberspace once more.
It's kinda sad yet funny that the matrix-running on the Genesis version of Shadowrun was closer to what netrunning was described as in Cyberpunk 2020 than what was shown in the Cyberpunk 2077 demo.
Not to mention the more recent Shadowrun games (Shadowrun: Returns/ Dragonfall/ Hong Kong, or the Shadowrun Chronicles). Those were awesome titles but that turn based system might just be more suited for a Netrunning simulation. It definitely resembles the (ideal) table top RPG experience.
Then again, I'd love to see my programs represented as giant fluorescent beasts fighting floating Black-ICE cubes on a neon grid from FP view in real time.
It's kinda sad yet funny that the matrix-running on the Genesis version of Shadowrun was closer to what netrunning was described as in Cyberpunk 2020 than what was shown in the Cyberpunk 2077 demo.
But Cyperpunk 2077 is more than 50 years after Cyberpunk 2020. Its like complaining that computers today are no longer operated by feeding punchcards to room-sized multi-million dollar machines....
(Lore reasons with Datacrash, Rogue AIs and Black Wall resulting in local nets in P&P Cyberpunk RED timeline and Cyberpunk 2077 see previous post.)
I actually liked how it looked. I'm glad there's not a ridiculously long minigame to get somewhere. Also, I love how different code imputs got you different results, and it looked like you could only have a few of the options available to you. Which I thought was an interesting way to force you to plan how you're going to tackle a mission. Hopefully they bolster it some more, but I really don't need that much more than what it looks like already.
I actually liked how it looked. I'm glad there's not a ridiculously long minigame to get somewhere. Also, I love how different code imputs got you different results, and it looked like you could only have a few of the options available to you. Which I thought was an interesting way to force you to plan how you're going to tackle a mission. Hopefully they bolster it some more, but I really don't need that much more than what it looks like already.
My point earlier was: It doesnt matter if there was a ridiculously long minigame, since this is a SINGLEPLAYER game. If player wants to play an oldschool netrunner, why not let them. Its only their own time they are wasting.
As is, I have seen nothing that would remotely spark my interest in making a hacker character. This modern style of "hold a button for a second and you hack this thing" is blatantly stupid in my eyes. Not immersive, fun, engaging, cool, interesting, or any other adjectives. Its just a waste of time.
But more than that I am disappointed if V is not able to enter cyberspace on their own.
