FPP only cutscenes might be a deal-breaker for me

[Sild]

Is it though? Is it be better to be shown how a character feels?

I don't think it is. In fact, my character shouldn't have any sort of strong feeling about a particular situation lest the choice i make risks (because ultimately the choice is the player's and not the character's) becoming absurd from the character feelings point of view.

Personally i don't need to empathise with my character to "feel" or enjoy a scene, especially if it's made in such a way that the "fourth wall" is constantly being broken, or as is in FPP, virtually non-existent.

 

[SigilFey]

Perspective has no objective impact whatsoever on how attached or disengaged an audience member feels toward a character, only a subjective one. That would be the same as arguing that a book written in first-person doesn't allow the reader to connect to the character as well as a book written in third-person because...why? It's not "cinematic" enough? Doesn't let the reader visualize the main character's "appearance" in enough detail?

Such elements have little to no bearing on how well a story is told. Neither does the medium. Films are not better/worse than games are not better/worse than books, etc. Any medium will work just fine as long as the creators understand how to manipulate the elements of that medium to capture the dramatic action they're going for. (And even if they're masterful at it, some will like it and others will not.)

In the end, the ultimate thing that matters to anyone is whether they, personally, like the final product for themselves.

 

[KakitaTatsumaru]

How much anyone will like it is, of course, subjective but I think the point here is that you're not supposed to be 'seeing' a characters emotion . I mean, what character are we even talking about? It's supposed to be you, the fantasy you that you're roleplaying/pretending to be, character generator and all.

Minus V isn't the player, there's a LOT of things going against that.

 

[Motsie]

Is the visual representation automatically mean better though? Is it be better to be shown how a character feels? Or is it better to let the player interpret how the character feels based on the content of the scene itself? Not trying to offer an answer one way or the other... just thinking out loud. Regardless, the answer would be subjective either way.

Not necessarily...

There is a lot that goes into crafting a scene. Music, lighting, audio, effects, acting, etc. Everything adds something to enhance a particular scene. It's like watching the first 20 minutes of Up without the music. You completely rob the impact of each scene because the music is a direct reflection of how the character's feel without using dialogue. Everything is communicated by the character's body language and music.

I don't think it is. In fact, my character shouldn't have any sort of strong feeling about a particular situation lest the choice i make risks (because ultimately the choice is the player's and not the character's) becoming absurd from the character feelings point of view.

Your character still has a voice which inflects emotion based on the situation - anger, sadness, melancholy, et al. Your character, V, will have a strong feeling about a certain topic based on the choice you make.

Perspective has no objective impact whatsoever on how attached or disengaged an audience member feels toward a character, only a subjective one.

Perspective in the context of a video game or film absolutely has an impact on an audience members feelings.

 

[Sild]

Your character still has a voice which inflects emotion based on the situation - anger, sadness, melancholy, et al

He might as well have been mute. His voice is of no consequence. Your choices are based on the situation, not visualized or perceived own character feelings. At least, they should be.

Your character, V, will have a strong feeling about a certain topic based on the choice you make.

My character can have a strong reaction in accordance with my choices i.e. if i choose to pull a gun on someone that's potentially threatening instead of negotiating, that would be a strong reaction. Whatever "V" is feeling should be left up to the player to decide according to his chosen role to role-play.

 

[SigilFey]

Perspective in the context of a video game or film absolutely has an impact on an audience members feelings.

That's not what I'm arguing. Of course, a perspective will have a decided impact on every aspect of every scene, game, film, book, etc. Something being a video game doesn't change this universal reality. Of course, the perspective used in a game will feel and play differently.

What I'm saying is that one perspective is not universally better or worse than any other. Whether players experience their character from FPP, over-the-shoulder, free cam, profile/platformer, isometric, or a mixture of them all -- this does not dictate to what extent a player will engage and sympathize with their character. I can do FPP with an incredible amount of emotional attachment and investment (Half-Life, CoD Modern Warfare, BioShock...) or I can do FPP with a fairly flat player character (Serious Sam, Quake, Duke Nukem Forever...) The perspective does not inherently determine either the depth of the character I'm creating nor the quality of the gameplay. Like any "brush-stroke", it's my skill as a painter that determines the final result, not whether I swipe or stipple.

Hence, the cutscenes being in FPP do not automatically mean there's less emotional attachment or evocation within the scene. It doesn't mean that my attachment to my V is lessened. In fact, given the way the dramatic action of the piece is being played, FPP can increase the amount of intimacy and connection I feel. Depends on the brush strokes.

 

[Motsie]

I can do just the same in any other cRPG or shooter with an important character. It's not that I need up-close visuals to establish a connection with the character. It's that I strongly feel that it's enhanced when you see that "reactivity". It's bizarre that they creatively felt FPP (exclusively) was the route to go in a game that features body-modifications, clothing options, etc.

Wack.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

Your character still has a voice which inflects emotion based on the situation - anger, sadness, melancholy, et al.

Well, that’s a fault of the design. If the character was truly to be yours (the players’), even if still called V, s/he shouldn’t have a voice. That already implies and projects detachment and deownership of the PC.

Perspective in the context of a video game or film absolutely has an impact on an audience members feelings.

Sure, but the mediums are very different, and in games, where the medium is supposed to be interactive with your whim, the cinematic side (that’s the films forte) is far less necessary; even distracting at times. It’s very much a matter of what is intended with the design. And if you ask me, games should try to focus on being games, not movies. Abd from that...the fewer cinematics there are, the better.

 

[imitenotbecrazy]

Rarely do I feel a characters reactivity match my own. If I'm playing MY character of V, I don't want to have forced emotional reactions

 

[superdemus]

Well, these are some strong arguments that are discussed concerning this topic. While those undoubtedly play some part in my subconsciousness, I rather keep it simple by just stating that I really dislike forced first person in massive (RPG) games just like I really dislike chocolate. Tried it, hated it. The cook can always try to sell its desert by philosophizing about it, or trying to picture it as a work of art. But in the end I just skip desert when it contains any chocolate, so no thanks.
"But, chocolate is a real treat, and it stimulates the ....."
"No thanks!!"

That goes double when there is a(n extensive) character creator present.
And it goes triple when they go 100% first person to avoid breaking "immersion" (starting to hate that word), until you drive a vehicle, then it's suddenly convenient to break it.
A project with these kind of odds, I just can't take seriously.
Optionality is a great virtue when a large crowd is involved and is a shame to pass it up with a game of this caliber.

Why even take my time to type this message? Well, lets say that I'm one of those so called "fools" that was expecting a mixture of third and first person (especially with character creation in mind) until that cold shower at June past year. Since then, like many others, it's only going downhill for me.
Until now the developers provided me three pearls of Witcher games but, sad as it is, this time it's a lost cause for me. I just hope this game won't evolve into a trendsetter for future games in general.

I'm still curious though if the developers decide to change the cover art to "V" (not me), standing behind the fourth wall, staring at a reflecting window or something similar.

Wait!! Forget that last sentence......

 

[Motsie]

Sure, but the mediums are very different, and in games, where the medium is supposed to be interactive with your whim, the cinematic side (that’s the films forte) is far less necessary; even distracting at times. It’s very much a matter of what is intended with the design. And if you ask me, games should try to focus on being games, not movies. Abd from that...the fewer cinematics there are, the better.

Thankfully, this isn't a David Cage game we're dealing with... where interaction amounts to rotating your joystick to lift a fork, and then watching a cutscene for 5 minutes before being interrupted with another QTE.

The design of this game is very much so that of an RPG - at least that's what they [the devs] keep opening with every time they show footage (filled with mostly action). People can reach a consensus that the basic formula [of an RPG] is you talk to a quest giver, go and do that quest, and come back for a reward. Sometimes it's deeper than that and you have an extensive chain of dialogue trees that you have to navigate through. TPP cutscenes are just an abstraction of reading text in an interaction or scene.

I get where you're getting at with 'games being games,' but it doesn't hold any water with regards to this. You're interacting with NPCs and talking to them, so the question is why force the perspective?

Were the character a mute, i.e. no voice, i'd understand the forced FPP in cutscenes. It makes sense. It does not make sense when there's a (mandatory?) voice.

 

[evilhippo]

Well, these are some strong arguments that are discussed concerning this topic. While those undoubtedly play some part in my subconsciousness, I rather keep it simple by just stating that I really dislike forced first person in massive (RPG) games just like I really dislike chocolate. Tried it, hated it. The cook can always try to sell its desert by philosophizing about it, or trying to picture it as a work of art. But in the end I just skip desert when it contains any chocolate, so no thanks.
"But, chocolate is a real treat, and it stimulates the ....."
"No thanks!!"

That goes double when there is a(n extensive) character creator present.
And it goes triple when they go 100% first person to avoid breaking "immersion" (starting to hate that word), until you drive a vehicle, then it's suddenly convenient to break it.
A project with these kind of odds, I just can't take seriously.
Optionality is a great virtue when a large crowd is involved and is a shame to pass it up with a game of this caliber.

Why even take my time to type this message? Well, lets say that I'm one of those so called "fools" that was expecting a mixture of third and first person (especially with character creation in mind) until that cold shower at June past year. Since then, like many others, it's only going downhill for me.
Until now the developers provided me three pearls of Witcher games but, sad as it is, this time it's a lost cause for me. I just hope this game won't evolve into a trendsetter for future games in general.

I'm still curious though if the developers decide to change the cover art to "V" (not me), standing behind the fourth wall, staring at a reflecting window or something similar.

Wait!! Forget that last sentence......

This post also sums up my sentiments rather well. Even to the point "Why even take my time to type this message?"... likewise, given that I actually took the trouble to cancel my pre-order with GOG, why am I bothering to post remarks here about a game I decided not to purchase after all? If even-in-cut-scenes FPP & endless claims FPP (horse blinker mode) is more 'immersive' was enough to turn me off, why continue to murder so many helpless pixels continuing to express my disaffection?

Well, I was captivated by CDPR's Witcher series, which got better & better each time, ending with the masterpiece of Witcher 3, that is why. My residual but rapidly shrinking pool of goodwill & hopes of ongoing excellence have kept me around like a cloud of blowflies buzzing around the corpse of my expectations

Post automatically merged: Sep 20, 2019

Rarely do I feel a characters reactivity match my own. If I'm playing MY character of V, I don't want to have forced emotional reactions

I want my toon in an RPG to express sentiments based on my remembered actions and current dialogue choices.

 

[KakitaTatsumaru]

endless claims FPP (horse blinker mode)

Don't forget the cervical collar.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

Were the character a mute, i.e. no voice, i'd understand the forced FPP in cutscenes. It makes sense. It does not make sense when there's a (mandatory?) voice.

I don’t quite see it like that. The voice is definitely a distraction in the face of the ”you’re the character”, ”it’s your character” sort of sentiments CDPR has given, but the perspective - nonetheless - is purely an artistic decision that’s meant to project a certain - specific - kind of experience to the player.

I don’t see it as a problem, the dialog scenes get done either way. And with less control taken away from the player via cinematics.

I had originally hoped the game would work somewhat similiarly to GTA 3 when it comes to perspectives (with top down perspective available), and that dialog would not be a sequence, but a contextual interface where other gameplay wouldn’t need to cease. But so it goes that that didn’t happen like a truckload of other things I hoped to see.

But I don’t think perspective matters as long as the game mechanically takes advantage of it in interesting ways. And I now hope they’d be thoroughly consistent with their commitment to their chosen perspective and make it mechanically sound (and with that commitment, also abandon 3rd person driving).

I don’t expect to get what I hope anymore, but...

 

[Guest 3573786]

And it goes triple when they go 100% first person to avoid breaking "immersion" (starting to hate that word), until you drive a vehicle, then it's suddenly convenient to break it.

Bruh... please don't give them ideas. 3rd person driving is literally the only thing keeping C2077 in the "wait for a sale" category for me. They change this and I would - and I never thought I'd say this - give up on a cdpr game. After a series of a bad decisions, this would really do me in

 

[Nefla]

How much anyone will like it is, of course, subjective but I think the point here is that you're not supposed to be 'seeing' a characters emotion . I mean, what character are we even talking about? It's supposed to be you, the fantasy you that you're roleplaying/pretending to be, character generator and all.

You're not supposed to 'see' the emotion, you're supposed to 'feel' it yourself, experience it as if you are there. The other characters stories, personalities, plots and, perhaps more than anything, the writing will be what makes us care enough to feel emotion about it all, assuming they are of good quality.

Joel and Ellie's story is theirs and you're a guiding onlooker. V's story is YOUR story and you are living V's life, not observing it.

Imo, that's what CDPR are aiming for, though obviously not everyone will find it to their tastes.

I myself have never had a problem feeling emotional about characters, regardless of perspective. I mean, I cared a great deal about characters in Baldur's Gate and Planescape Torment and the only faces you see are static pictures And don't get me started on books.

The problem for me with the "it's supposed to be you, not a real character" is that...the character is nothing like me and is in a scenario I would never be in. If I were really playing a game as me, it would be either the most boring or the shortest game ever as I go about my mundane life and make safe, law abiding decisions. V's story is NOT my story, I don't know her history, I haven't formed the relationships she has, I didn't have her childhood, etc...she's a character who is nothing like me but instead of getting to know her and how she feels I have to randomly make up or assume those emotions out of nowhere? That's never going to get me invested in a character (or more accurately a lifeless pair of disembodied hands holding the gun). The trailer we got this year of Jackie dying in the car and V going on to be confronted by Dexter DeShawn and co was emotional to me because we got to see the characters interacting with each other, the emotions on the MC's face. If that same scene would have been in FPP it would have lost 90% of the impact.

Is the visual representation automatically mean better though? Is it better to be shown how a character feels? Or is it better to let the player interpret how the character feels based on the content of the scene itself? Not trying to offer an answer one way or the other... just thinking out loud. Regardless, the answer would be subjective either way.

For my tastes the ideal scenario is to be able to pick a dialogue option or action or response that ties into the character's reactions and emotions for that scene (of course the impact of that would be mostly lost in FPP anyway) but yes I want to see the emotion on the character's face, to see their actions or watch them get hurt.

Perspective has no objective impact whatsoever on how attached or disengaged an audience member feels toward a character, only a subjective one. That would be the same as arguing that a book written in first-person doesn't allow the reader to connect to the character as well as a book written in third-person because...why? It's not "cinematic" enough? Doesn't let the reader visualize the main character's "appearance" in enough detail?

Such elements have little to no bearing on how well a story is told. Neither does the medium. Films are not better/worse than games are not better/worse than books, etc. Any medium will work just fine as long as the creators understand how to manipulate the elements of that medium to capture the dramatic action they're going for. (And even if they're masterful at it, some will like it and others will not.)

In the end, the ultimate thing that matters to anyone is whether they, personally, like the final product for themselves.

Let's be fair here, a book still has descriptions and still tells you the character's thoughts and feelings. it's not left up to the reader to imagine or make up their own. "Sarah fell to her knees and wept at the sight of the dying child" vs "I couldn't help it, I fell to my knees and wept at the sight of the dying child." If the game had V's thoughts narrated then it might be easier to connect to them despite FPP and the inability to see their emotions.

 

[str1111]

The problem for me with the "it's supposed to be you, not a real character" is that...the character is nothing like me and is in a scenario I would never be in. If I were really playing a game as me, it would be either the most boring or the shortest game ever as I go about my mundane life and make safe, law abiding decisions. V's story is NOT my story, I don't know her history, I haven't formed the relationships she has, I didn't have her childhood, etc...

Some ppl really don't understand wha RP means... seriously. Character don't need be like you, to be you, there are plenty RP where you play certain role given to you... not you, but someone whom you are, like idk pirate, you play LARP where you character is pirate (you don't know his/her whole backstory/childhood, you have certain goals, given to you by gamemasters, etc.), but you create him, by chosing what happened in certain moments of scenario, etc... please stop with this whole "character can't be me cause I don't live in Cyberpunk", or something like that, cause it's not help in your point of wiew about FPP... and it's silly when we talking about RP games.
Especially when we talking about "you are V", not "you are you in Cyberpunk world" scenario. You create V, you play his/her role...

 

[SigilFey]

Let's be fair here, a book still has descriptions and still tells you the character's thoughts and feelings. it's not left up to the reader to imagine or make up their own. "Sarah fell to her knees and wept at the sight of the dying child" vs "I couldn't help it, I fell to my knees and wept at the sight of the dying child." If the game had V's thoughts narrated then it might be easier to connect to them despite FPP and the inability to see their emotions.

According to this, watching a scene in TPP lets us better see V's inner thoughts and feelings? But hang on -- that would require me to dictate V's reactions to the player. What if V were to look frightened when the player felt their V would just stare back coldly? What if V were to laugh at a joke the player didn't find funny? What if V were to walk around with a certain action and energy that the player didn't think fit their vision?

As for revealing the inner thoughts and feelings of a character, that's almost exclusively the providence of written work. (I'd also argue it should be kept to a minimum. Necessary sometimes, but it's a prime example of telling instead of showing.) Books allow for all the senses to be incorporated into the experience but require more active involvement by the reader. Any visual media is more passive, but strips the experience down to sight and sound. Games arguably add a little tactile sense back into it with rumble packs and stuff...but it's a little much to say that my controller vibrating is a transcendent experience. Regardless of the frills, the core of the narrative experience will be the storytelling, not the perspective. Just like all media. (It's perfectly possible to write an amazing story in 1st or 3rd person. It's perfectly possible to make an amazing film using more close-ups or more wide shots. It's perfectly possible to create amazing cutscenes using FPP or TPP.)

 

[evilhippo]

What if V were to look frightened when the player felt their V would just stare back coldly? What if V were to laugh at a joke the player didn't find funny? What if V were to walk around with a certain action and energy that the player didn't think fit their vision?

Isn't that what selectable dialogue (or emote) choices are for?

1. (emote: alarm)
2.(emote: indifference)
3.(emote: laugh)

 

[KakitaTatsumaru]

Especially when we talking about "you are V", not "you are you in Cyberpunk world" scenario. You create V, you play his/her role...

Not much, V is already well defined.