Poison and Harmony

[Panos_Sigma]

Because Dana accesses a card you have access to anyways, it makes a power card more consistent.
Fran is able to create a copy of a power card and give you a second use on a card that is designed to be once per game.
Dana has access to 1 Justice and 1 Waters.
Fran has access to 1 Justice, 1 Waters and an additional copy of the one you want.
Those cards have high provision cost, however aim somewhat above what that provision cost is worth, which is fine for a central staple, which by construction is already a once per game thing.

So, after all it's about a leader's ability who can reuse powerful special card(s). But you also think in your previous posts that these special cards are ok and should not be touched. But, the problem with Fran according to you is the broken op willow or whatever. Ok...

 

[InkognitoXI]

So, after all it's about a leader's ability who can reuse powerful special card(s). But you also think in your previous posts that these special cards are ok and should not be touched. But, the problem with Fran according to you is about the broken op willow or whatever. Ok...

I said that Willow, after the "recent" changes is a bit overtuned and a little adjustment fixes that.
Fran is broken because ST have more than a few overtuned cards and on top of that a leader, which is able to reuse cards that should not be reusable.
I said Waters and Justice are on the edge, they are very, very strong and give the faction their faction specific power cards.
Fran being able to reuse cards that are on the edge of too good and are balanced by being limited is the problem.
I never said Waters and Justice are cards that are balanced if slapped into any faction, with the picture of other ST cards in mind they are fine.
Being able to reuse them with a leader ability is highly problematic, which is why I never stated Dana would be problematic.
Dana fetches power cards, Fran creates more of those, which is by contruction problematic.

Edit: Let us also not forget that ST is a faction with power cards like Oak (which I do not want to see getting hit), there is a limit to how many multi-engine generating cards are tolerable.
I said there are multiple layers to problem and the most obvious and problematic (also definitely by far the worst) is Fran.

 

[ardeathwinggwent]

Guys, Foltest was comparably as much over the top as it is Fran at the moment, but last season. After the most recent patch notes his package was nerfed with ~15 points and he STILL is considered at least T2 right?
I suppose the same will happen with the Fran package. You can't balance it with 1 change, there will be multiple. If everybody was losing to Fran with 2-3 points difference everything was gonna be alright, problem is people lose to Fran with 20+ points difference a lot of the time, so I really expect major nerfs here.

 

[croloris]

Guys, Foltest was comparably as much over the top as it is Fran at the moment, but last season. After the most recent patch notes his package was nerfed with ~15 points and he STILL is considered at least T2 right?
I suppose the same will happen with the Fran package. You can't balance it with 1 change, there will be multiple. If everybody was losing to Fran with 2-3 points difference everything was gonna be alright, problem is people lose to Fran with 20+ points difference a lot of the time, so I really expect major nerfs here.

I would say that Fran is more Tier 0.5 and the Foltest and DJ decks were Tier 0. The difference being that if things don't go your way, you could possibly still beat Fran. You can even let her have last say and defeat Fran. without last say against those Foltest and DJ decks, you were done and losing by 30 to 60 points. Fran has problems when Calanthe spits out 15 points at the start of the round... DJ routinely scored 60 points on his last turn and Foltest usually filled his board with Revenants. Both are still Tier 1 decks and can beat Fran now, along with Detleff, Dana, Calanthe, most Regis decks, and Hyper Hurl.

I think her nerfs will be minor...a return to 13 provisions and Waters getting the Doomed tag...

...Justice will be exploited, but Iron Judgement is the Dwarf's coming out party, so they will leave it be until the first IJ patch.

 

[InkognitoXI]

[...]
I think her nerfs will be minor...a return to 13 provisions and Waters getting the Doomed tag.

So Fran players just switch to using Justice as the target, which they are already doing rather often.
I do not expect the changes 4RM3D suggests, including only a 1 provision nerf on Fran and general nerfs to a lot of involved cards, however I agree that Fran is different from Foltest and DJ, which had small overpowered packages one could tune down, although nerfing Fran in a major way (on the level of the DJ nerf) is the way I want (and expect) to see, unless the problem will just continue (again it is just Fran, the other ST leaders are not problematic, I wonder why that is, propably because Fran does not have to tune a 6p into a 4p and continue as before).

if you assume the nerf is going to happen in a doomed tag it has to be applied to (Call,) Waters and Justice (or it would do nothing) and I do not see that coming.

 

[Gyg]

Double Justice is only problematic in all Dwarf deck, which is considered tier 3 by Aretuza. In harmony deck there are no Dwarf engines that can be used easily.

 

[InkognitoXI]

Double Justice is only problematic in all Dwarf deck, which is considered tier 3 by Aretuza. In harmony deck there are no Dwarf engines that can be used easily.

Dwarven Defender (only requires a teched Dennis Cranberry)/Dwarven Marauder/Cleaver's Muscle.
The first and second I saw, with Defender being used in non-dwarf centric variants, considering Cranberry is a generic good card to support rowstacking (which is already done because of Oak), with a half of the 15p Zoltan (Zoltan: Scoundrel).
Cranberry can either be used to give a 2 point boost to 2 Defenders to turn them on or in the case of quadruple Defender it can turn every single one of them on.
All in all that is a strong engine play as well.

Fran should feel the full force of the nerf-hammer (that is necessary) and not drag the rest of the faction down to keep a toxic leader the others will not be able to compete with.
Edit: There should be no unnecessary nerfs to ST cards, just to keep Bancesca.

And in the next expansion we will get Miner, which is a 3 point harmony Dwarf, so Justice can get 2 3 point harmony engines as well, which come with 2 points of removal (so doomed on Waters does nothing when Justice can fullfill the same purpose at that point).

 

[mazeebra]

ST have too many things going on, and too cheap and too much poison ability.

 

[StrongFirst]

Or... Remove Poison from the SC faction completely. Just sayin'. If they want to use it, there are Neutral Cards...

 

[Calabrin]

I truly dread seeing Scoia’tael decks these days.

I realize people have grievances against other decks, but I have consistently felt that Harmony and Dead-Eye decks are absurdly OP.

I just came off a narrow win where I was using Lockdown/Masquerade Ball and my opponent was playing Harmony— not even using Mystic Echo!

I managed to complete MB, and take out a number of his units with poison, and *still* only got the win because his last card was Schirru, which did more damage to him than to me.

To my mind, both Mystic Echo and Dead-Eye Ambush are OP AF. There are simply too many engines that drive those decks and countering them feels Sisyphean. My record against them has gotta be somewhere in the neighborhood of, like, 2-150.