Stuff about difficulty settings and gameplay

[Ambergeddon]

I would actually really like this, I've always been a fan of game difficulty making enemies smarter and using better tactics or being more aggressive and I've always hated bullet spongy enemies so this sounds good to me, I want enemies to be flanking me when I'm behind cover, sending melee and shotgun dudes in to flush me out. And I want every bullet to mean something, we ain't shooting each other with spitball guns lol.

 

[CyberBobber]

I would actually really like this, I've always been a fan of game difficulty making enemies smarter and using better tactics or being more aggressive and I've always hated bullet spongy enemies so this sounds good to me, I want enemies to be flanking me when I'm behind cover, sending melee and shotgun dudes in to flush me out. And I want every bullet to mean something, we ain't shooting each other with spitball guns lol.

If you watch this.. This is gonna be bullet sponge game. Theres one spot. where guy puts like two clips of automatic pistol clip into enemy and its still alive. At 5:30 theres boss fight, lots of cool stuff going on.

Cyberpunks combat seems like "gun and run" combat to me. Whats fine by me. Not sure though if they made it look it so for advertisement purpose.

 

[Restlessdingo32]

That sounds like MMORPG endgame. Is that what you guys want?

How do you figure? It's a statement about how difficulty should be increased or decreased by tuning the value up or down. The "normal" way to do this is to make the bad guys require more punishment and/or dish more out. The challenges presented to the character are "harder" because they have to shoot more or gradually lose the ability to eat lead for lunch as the slider is increased. An alternative is to make the player have "less" at any given point in the game. Less skill points, fewer pieces of gear, a lower level, whatever.

The fundamental difference is in the "normal" case difficulty is added by lowering the margin for error for the player and raising it for the opposition. Combat isn't inherently harder in this case. The actions the player performs aren't innately more difficult. They just have to be executed better and more frequently. In the alternative, assuming a system of weapon sway, higher recoil, etc., those actions would be innately more difficult to execute. If you asked me which of these is better it's an easy answer.

I'd say the "normal" concept is more applicable to MMO's. Take WoW for instance. Cut out anything not considered end-game because their design model revolves around obsoleting their own content. They split this content up by giving a plethora of modes. In the harder modes the difficulty is due to a higher number of mechanics, more punishing mechanics and a greater chance of fatigue for the players due to needing to execute at a high level for a long interval of time. The first of these would be more "difficult". The second and third are more related to the need for better and more frequent execution.

I won't argue against players avoiding these harder modes because they merely want more shiny toys for the least amount of effort. This is precisely why there are easier modes available. Difficulty options available to the player provides the same functionality. If you want easy then play easy. If you want difficult then play difficult. While it is possible to make a purely "hard" game and get sales it's not financially intelligent because you condense your target audience.

If you watch this.. This is gonna be bullet sponge game. Theres one spot. where guy puts like two clips of automatic pistol clip into enemy and its still alive. At 5:30 theres boss fight, lots of cool stuff going on.

In fairness, I wouldn't consider that exorbitantly bullet spongey. The pacing is akin to TW3 when fighting equal level opponents. Many "bad guys" takes 1-4ish hits to drop. Obviously, the video shows a lot more than 2-4 bullets. Barring the shotgun anyway. Yet, the timing for TTD feels eerily similar to the pacing in TW3. Also, it's clear showcasing mechanics was the point to that video. I'd expect the amount of times the player is hit would be a problem on higher difficulties in the finished product (if not the combat is objectively easy).

Going the other way.... Any ideas what that combat reminds me of? To pick an arbitrary game, it reminds me of Doom. <- FPS.

 

[CyberBobber]

How do you figure? It's a statement about how difficulty should be increased or decreased by tuning the value up or down. The "normal" way to do this is to make the bad guys require more punishment and/or dish more out. The challenges presented to the character are "harder" because they have to shoot more or gradually lose the ability to eat lead for lunch as the slider is increased. An alternative is to make the player have "less" at any given point in the game. Less skill points, fewer pieces of gear, a lower level, whatever.

The fundamental difference is in the "normal" case difficulty is added by lowering the margin for error for the player and raising it for the opposition. Combat isn't inherently harder in this case. The actions the player performs aren't innately more difficult. They just have to be executed better and more frequently. In the alternative, assuming a system of weapon sway, higher recoil, etc., those actions would be innately more difficult to execute. If you asked me which of these is better it's an easy answer.

I'd say the "normal" concept is more applicable to MMO's. Take WoW for instance. Cut out anything not considered end-game because their design model revolves around obsoleting their own content. They split this content up by giving a plethora of modes. In the harder modes the difficulty is due to a higher number of mechanics, more punishing mechanics and a greater chance of fatigue for the players due to needing to execute at a high level for a long interval of time. The first of these would be more "difficult". The second and third are more related to the need for better and more frequent execution.

I won't argue against players avoiding these harder modes because they merely want more shiny toys for the least amount of effort. This is precisely why there are easier modes available. Difficulty options available to the player provides the same functionality. If you want easy then play easy. If you want difficult then play difficult. While it is possible to make a purely "hard" game and get sales it's not financially intelligent because you condense your target audience.



In fairness, I wouldn't consider that exorbitantly bullet spongey. The pacing is akin to TW3 when fighting equal level opponents. Many "bad guys" takes 1-4ish hits to drop. Obviously, the video shows a lot more than 2-4 bullets. Barring the shotgun anyway. Yet, the timing for TTD feels eerily similar to the pacing in TW3. Also, it's clear showcasing mechanics was the point to that video. I'd expect the amount of times the player is hit would be a problem on higher difficulties in the finished product (if not the combat is objectively easy).

Going the other way.... Any ideas what that combat reminds me of? To pick an arbitrary game, it reminds me of Doom. <- FPS.

Holy crap man, its hard to talk about difficult level and challenges if we dont know what kind of combat this game has. Theres many kind of shooters. Cover based. Shoot with right weapons and accurately and stay behind walls etc. Move and doge alot like Doom etc. Ability based shooters is one, you get a wall or some turret for difficulf situations.

If Im right if its somekind of "shoot and move" game, kinda "kill streak" game, adding more enemies would be one interesting way to add more difficult to the game. Normal lvl only has 4 enemies when hardest has 12 etc.

Wow, watch 4:23, theres double jump?

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

Cyberpunks combat seems like "gun and run" combat to me.

It does because it is. The videos don’t lie so far as we know.

It doesn’t have to be, though. If the difficulty would be set along the lines of what I proposed, people (apparently lots of them) who fell in love with that kind of combat could actually keep it almost as it is presented; on easier difficulties. And people who want a more RPG kind of challenge could have their way on harder. Certain concessions would of course need to be made by both parties, those’re tolerable if you ask me.

And if there is some kind of a ”story mode” to boot... that can well make every enemy paper thin, overriding combat difficulties altogether.

 

[CyberBobber]

It does because it is. The videos don’t lie so far as we know.

It doesn’t have to be, though. If the difficulty would be set along the lines of what I proposed, people (apparently lots of them) who fell in love with that kind of combat could actually keep it almost as it is presented; on easier difficulties. And people who want a more RPG kind of challenge could have their way on harder. Certain concessions would of course need to be made by both parties, those’re tolerable if you ask me.

And if there is some kind of a ”story mode” to boot... that can well make every enemy paper thin, overriding combat difficulties altogether.

Your idea sounds awesome, but so many things needs to be changed though? its really worth it.

My idea is more no-brainer. You can call Trauma Team in bad situations if you start to feel like the combat is too hard or you get frustrated. Imagine you are fighting on the street, you are going down, call trauma team and helicopter arrives and sniper start to shoot bad guys. Or if you are inside building, door will be kicked in, and trauma team rushes in and start shooting and healing you.

My idea is kinda "optional extra life". You can use your extra life or you dont.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

but so many things needs to be changed though? its really worth it.

I think it absolutely is worth it. The gameplay changes. That's the point. But I'm not sure it is really about changing all that much in the end. More about just adjusting what's already there... what we've been told is already there. Not necessarily an "easy" task, no, but I don't know that it matters to the customers experience how much work went into what feature.

I had an idea for trauma team too that involved timely payments (different levels of insurances) that can save the player from reloading (a chance, not a guarantee; risk versus insurance level), but also costs a lot of money onregular basis. That really is a ”no brainer” and I think there should be something like that, but it doesn’t really touch the gameplay which is at the heart of ny point.

 

[Restlessdingo32]

Your idea sounds awesome, but so many things needs to be changed though? its really worth it.

I suppose it depends on perspective. As a player I'd say yes. If a certain mechanic is poor it should be improved upon. If this means redoing areas then, yes, it's absolutely worth a wait.

My idea is more no-brainer. You can call Trauma Team in bad situations if you start to feel like the combat is too hard or you get frustrated. Imagine you are fighting on the street, you are going down, call trauma team and helicopter arrives and sniper start to shoot bad guys. Or if you are inside building, door will be kicked in, and trauma team rushes in and start shooting and healing you.

This is right up there with smart, auto-aiming weapons for the "RPG crowd". It's like saying, "We know some of you RPG fans don't like FPS combat so here is FPS combat with built in cheat code toggles so you can handle it.". Difficulty scaling should be more intuitive and natural. The idea presented here is appealing because it sounds like it would check both boxes. It would simultaneously create greater enforcement of the character attributes on the player. I suspect this last part is the driving force behind the idea.

 

[CyberBobber]

I suppose it depends on perspective. As a player I'd say yes. If a certain mechanic is poor it should be improved upon. If this means redoing areas then, yes, it's absolutely worth a wait.



This is right up there with smart, auto-aiming weapons for the "RPG crowd". It's like saying, "We know some of you RPG fans don't like FPS combat so here is FPS combat with built in cheat code toggles so you can handle it.". Difficulty scaling should be more intuitive and natural. The idea presented here is appealing because it sounds like it would check both boxes. It would simultaneously create greater enforcement of the character attributes on the player. I suspect this last part is the driving force behind the idea.

Well, I dont wanna stop you guys. I just happened to read stuff about Trauma Team and thought man that sounds fun.

If there was so called "extra life" it would be great way to add more difficulty to the game. They could push it little bit further and make more engaging and exciting game. If CDPR isnt gonna do it, I hope someone is.

In Cyberpunk universe you dont really die, you just go coma, then if nobody help you, you die. So combat resurrect is very possible.

 

[Rawls]

Generally speaking, I agree Kofe. Making enemies harder to hit and hit harder is much better than just giving them more HP. CDPR did a very good job with this with bosses in their two expansions in TW3. Caretaker, Iris's Nightmare, Gloyat, the Bruxa, the Shaelmaar and Detlaff were all very different and not just giant piles of HP. So hopeful they will get this right.

 

[CyberBobber]

Generally speaking, I agree Kofe. Making enemies harder to hit and hit harder is much better than just giving them more HP. CDPR did a very good job with this with bosses in their two expansions in TW3. Caretaker, Iris's Nightmare, Gloyat, the Bruxa, the Shaelmaar and Detlaff were all very different and not just giant piles of HP. So hopeful they will get this right.

If it has been done before there isnt much marketting value, at least thats how I view it. I dont remember any game what does "one extra life" combat, Dark Souls has a few? right, especially RPG game, RPG usually try to hide the death of a player in sake of immersion.

 

[Rawls]

If it has been done before there isnt much marketting value, at least thats how I view it. I dont remember any game what does "one extra life" combat, Dark Souls has a few? right, especially RPG game, RPG usually try to hide the death of a player in sake of immersion.

Huh? I was talking more about enemy NPC and boss behaviors, not respawns.