Weekly Poll 5/11/2020 - Combat, the nitty-gritty. TTK, etc!

[Sardukhar]

Appropriately enough, doing this on 511.

TTK - Time To Kill. Criticals. Headshots. Bleeding. Ammo use. The next couple weeks we're going to look at combat-stuff. Different games feel -very- different. Counterstrike vs Fortnite vs ARMA. We've had a poll or two about this, but mostly overview - do you like ARMA or CS better? KCD or Witcher 3 combat, etc. These will be more...precise. Appropriately.

In general, I will exclude boss fight mechanics, as those are separate. Also super silly usually.

6 choices.


Other polls here: https://forums.cdprojektred.com/index.php?threads/collected-weekly-polls-thread.10984601/

 

[Rawls]

2, 9, 10. Those three together are the sweet spot for combat and progression systems IMO.

 

[Spockprime]

2, 6, 7, 9

I would prefer fast time to kill with good ability to use cover, and smart AI. But I think that would irritate a lot of people who don't have the patience to use cover, so I chose #2.

 

[Has_Neyn]

1. Want it realistic, so a headshot would be an instant kill no matter what gun you're using. Think Metro Exodus on the hardest difficulty. I know that Metro and Cyberpunk are vastly different games, but I like my games to be realistic and I don't want the enemies to be bullet sponges. Hopefully there'll be a mod released that amps up damage modifiers if this isn't in the base game.

 

[Kid_SixXx]

I like 2,5,6,7,9, and 10.

I am of two minds when it comes to RPG combat, especially when it involves firearms.

On the one hand, I think that gun combat should be extremely lethal. It should force you to respect hard cover and in the case of Meredith Stout and her thugs in the gameplay video, guns should force you to respect the quality of your opposition. I still think that you should be able to shoot your way out of most situations, but sometimes players don't take the time to explore non-combative options to solve problems and they would be more likely to reconsider violence if their opponents were equally or better armed.

On the other and more meta hand, we're playing a game and it would suck if we died instantly every time we got shot. We should respect guns and what they can do, but we also don't want combat to be so lethal that one wrong move sends us back to a previous checkpoint. That can get really frustrating.

Fortunately, we're playing a game with cyborgs. We can incorporate both principles given the x factor of how body modifications will affect combat. We can expect some enemies to keep going after having boxes of bullets dumped into them and not think its ridiculous because of the body enhancements that enhance combat ability, resilience, and recovery. Cybernetics and body modification as game concepts provide the perfect bridge to unify realistic combat with game combat.

If I shoot Sasquatch enough times, I expect her to die. Question is, against a person with modifications as extensive as hers, how many times is enough? More importantly, what kind of weapon should I use. I think she'd laugh at me if I used anything less than an Abrams tank.

From the looks off the extended gameplay video, it looks like the guys at CDPR have things well in hand and combat looks pretty solid, so just keep polishing away and I'll just pray that summer doesn't last forever and September gets here as fast as it can.

 

[MauricioMM]

1, 4, 5, 7, 9, and 10... but not exactly. All odds should be determined by the difficulty.

For instance, on Easy all gunfights should be a breeze. But on Friday Night Firefight difficulty (i.e. what I wish the hardest difficulty to both be named and represent), even if you're well equipped, you have to be really strategic and well prepared (e.g. carefully pay attetion to enemy patrols, locate their weapons caches, place traps and turn their own against them, infiltrate their network, pick the right ammunition according to their resistances, eavesdrop their conversations,...) and, even on those favorable circumstances, survival shouldn't be a given. If you want to go guns blazing but also make survival more viable, well, that's why there should be Medium and Hard difficulties.

Thing is, how to make melee viable in the FNFF difficulty, if a single gunshot could turn my well-geared and well-prepared cyberninja into a well-dead cyberninja?

 

[Suhiira]

4, 5, 7, 9

I'd love to see the difficulty setting reduce/increase NPC TTK.

The others are related. Look at real combat casualties, people get wounded, and perhaps incapacitated FAR more often then they get killed. And the only thing I dislike more then twitch combat is bullet sponges.

 

[DataEntity.390]

I have fond memories of the brutal - and reportedly realistic - combat of Friday Night Firefight. So I hope that the combat in the game is similar. Or atleast if you pick a harder difficulty or likely a special difficulty, since FNFF would be brutal to both player and enemies.

 

[Restlessdingo32]

2, 4, 5, 7, 9 and 10.

I'm conflicted between 1 and 2. From a realism perspective shooting things in the face should finish them. Unfortunately, pursuing realism to an extreme can conflict with RPG themes and make the player feel like they're in complete control, independent of the character. So, I'm going with 2 to provide a happy middle ground.

My gut says it will likely fall around moderate time to kill, with a bit of fast and extended TTK in there in specific instances. Similar to TW3 vs equal or slightly above leveled opponents. Some would drop instantly, depending on build/circumstances, most would take a little bit of punishment and, in the case of specific above leveled enemies, take a beating (Trolls, Golems, Earth Elementals, to name a few).

I'm conflicted on 5 and 6 for identical reasons. One shot kills via crits makes a good bit of sense. Faster TTK from crits, approaching instant kill status, is probably a more appropriate middle ground for the game type.

4 and 9 kind of go together. Instead of excessive bullet sponges elevate the risk/danger to the player.

7 because why not? I still recall those clever little moments in Deus Ex where you could flip the breaker to electrocute hostiles or pop poison gas barrels and whanot. These little things can greatly enhance game play. Plus, playing into these type of approaches feels like a justified path for Techies. In order to further differentiate them from the other roles.

10 because, again, why wouldn't gear influence these areas?

 

[DataEntity.390]

I'm conflicted between 1 and 2. From a realism perspective shooting things in the face should finish them. Unfortunately, pursuing realism to an extreme can conflict with RPG themes and make the player feel like they're in complete control, independent of the character. So, I'm going with 2 to provide a happy middle ground.

RPG gameplay and short TTK FPS combat can be successfully married, as exemplified the original Deus Ex.

Where the more XP you committed towards shooting, the quicker your aim. Which the game simulated by having bullet spread on all guns, that narrowed the longer you kept the reticule stationary.

So we know that it is possible to do so.

From the 48-min reveal- and the deep dive videos we can infer that this seems to be the case. With leveling giving - as of yet unspecified - perks, rather than directly affecting combat gameplay.

 

[parasite_avi]

1, 4, 9, 10

So I really enjoy a fast-paced combat and I like it when the fight is not actually fast, but it can be if you know what to do. Given the fact that the Cyberpunk 2077 is an RPG, levels and gear actually should influence the TTK, the course and the intensity of the battle.

At the same time, taking too long to kill a higher-level enemy based solely (or even mostly) of HP is a tedious mechanic for a shooter. It's not CS:GO to drop enemies too fast either, so I think sweet spot is the middle or a combination of somewhat fast TTK which is subject to change with level and gear of the player and enemies. That way, rushing a corpo building or a combat zone right when you first boot the game is a death wish, but still doable (to some extent), and especially doable when you come prepared and smart with both gear and some skill points smartly invested.

 

[atomowyturysta]

I really hope combat would be only marginaly affected by the level. Still, the level thing got a kind of Shrodinger Confirmation, it's been in the gameplay, it's confirmed but not really and maybe no factor. I really loved CP2020 that no matter how big they were, they could be dropped. And v.v. no matter how hard my PC was, she could be dropped any time. Fortunately, the previous happened often, the latter never
I recently played Diablo 3 and it was hillarious as the first boss took some 2k damege and died and few hours later the lowliest of the minions soaked 500k damage That's stupid. But that's Diablo. It's supposed to be insultingly stupid. Cyberpunk, on the other hand, not.
We'll see.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

If the question's simply about damage, the TTK should be relatively low (1 or 2 in the poll). Depending on gear, but still.

But of course that time should scale along with the characters weaponskill and how many hits it allows him to score on average.

And yes, one shot kills allowed. Both ways. All rules should apply to both, PC and the NPC's.

Levels should only be an indicator of the characters level of skill (including perceptiveness of a sneaky players presence) and possibly gear and chrome. It should not be an indicator of how much the enemy has heatlth or damage resistance that prevents an inventive player of pulling a headshot that offs him there and then. And that includes bosses. I'm still saying the whole idea of bossfigts, the presentation and the shown mechanisms involved, is ludicrous and off.

 

[Sardukhar]

And yes, one shot kills allowed. Both ways. All rules should apply to both, PC and the NPC's.

I thought about it and actually didn't vote for this. One shit kills IRL are super rare. One shot that kills you -later-, sure. But that takes seconds or hours. Thus the bleeding-out rules in 2020 and maybe in 2077.

But other than complete destruction of the braincase, actually killing -in- that one shot hits window is pretty rare. Generally, it's shock, blood loss and elastic tissue damage that kills you.

This whole shoot-them-in-the-head-and-they-die-instantly kinda silly, I think.

Also in 2020, once you're dead, you have 5 minutes before you're unrevivable, so one shot kills that force a reload of your game aren't my bag, I think.

 

[Restlessdingo32]

RPG gameplay and short TTK FPS combat can be successfully married, as exemplified the original Deus Ex.

Where the more XP you committed towards shooting, the quicker your aim. Which the game simulated by having bullet spread on all guns, that narrowed the longer you kept the reticule stationary.

So we know that it is possible to do so.

It is and I've argued as much before. The trouble is very low TTK with action combat mechanics can make things like bullet spread, reticle sway, etc. largely irrelevant to the end result unless all of the above is implemented extremely carefully. Even if it's done exceptionally well it can diminish the authority of character attributes.

Take TW3 as an example. This isn't a shooter but combat mechanics were action oriented. It had a streamlined progression system. Yet, the ability to play the game proficiently could trump any and all decisions made in the progression and character design systems.

As much as I hate to admit it from the info I've seen thus far CP doesn't appear different in this regard. The combat looks highly action based in a similar vein to the TW3 combat. In a way where player proficiency will be able to largely trump the character attributes. In those circumstances I think higher TTK's paired with shooting mechanics can rein this behaviour in a bit and give those character attributes greater importance.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

...

My intent was for it to be rare (but I’d had to make a page long explanation about the hiw’s and why’s).

As much as I hate to admit it from the info I've seen thus far CP doesn't appear different in this regard. The combat looks highly action based in a similar vein to the TW3 combat.

Yeah... I suppose I’m still looking at things from a ”what would be optimal” kind of angle, and should rather get adjusted to what is reality with this game.


edit - damn, doing this shit on a phone always gets things mixed....

 

[Suhiira]

As much as I hate to admit it from the info I've seen thus far CP doesn't appear different in this regard. The combat looks highly action based in a similar vein to the TW3 combat. In a way where player proficiency will be able to largely trump the character attributes.

My take (and concern) as well.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

So, if going with shooter combat...

Still low TTK and.... well, I suppose there’s not much more for me to say. What was shown looks as good as any run off the mill shooter, so I suppose the combat, as shown, is as good as it gets.

 

[Sardukhar]

So, if going with shooter combat...

Still low TTK and.... well, I suppose there’s not much more for me to say. What was shown looks as good as any run off the mill shooter, so I suppose the combat, as shown, is as good as it gets.

Awwwww. Poor kofe. I can hear the dull acceptance of the inevitable in your voice.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

Awwwww. Poor kofe. I can hear the dull acceptance of the inevitable in your voice.

It had to come at some point.