RPG Mechanics: Skill Progression and Roles

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Worked on a visual representation of the way I the skill stat/skill/perk tree would look in my dream scenario (taking into account what we already know about the game's systems so far).

CyberPunk_CharacterPerks.png


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I decided to ditch "programming" and move "social" under intelligence because (1) I think programming would be an underwhelming skill mechanically speaking and can be easily integrated within hacking and (2) social intelligence/human perception is a type of intelligence. I don't love social in intelligence but I think it makes about as much sense as putting it under the cool/willpower stat and this better balances the five stats functionally.

For reference this is what I wrote about my four added skills before:

Additional Tech Skills:

- Gearhead: (1) better at repairing & upgrading weapons & armor; (2) craft advanced weapons; (3) craft advanced armor; (4) craft advanced weapon modules; (5) craft advanced armor modules - basically this skill would make V more proficient and efficient at crafting/repairing weapons, armor, modules, and the like.
- Chemist: (1) tolerance to chemicals, (2) bonuses to medicine crafting; (3) bonuses to poison crafting; (4) bonuses to stat boosters (5) bonuses to explosives - basically this would make V better at crafting and using consumables, explosives and etc.

Under this theory Cyberware and mechanical items like the Flathead would still be under "Engineering," as well as other abilities like rewiring doors and such.

Additional Intelligence Skills:

- Social - (1) detect aggression; (2) detect fear; (3) detect deception; (4) highlights dialogues that will irritate; (5) highlights dialogues will persuade - basically this would act like human perception, telling V what dialogue choices are likely to persuade, intimidate, etc NPCs.
- Business Sense - (1) negotiate better contract prices; (2) sell things for more; (3) buy things cheaper; (4) bribe NPCs; (5) sell illegally obtained gear - basically this would allow V to get better deals on items and make the world less expensive to live in.
 
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Worked on a visual representation of the way I the skill stat/skill/perk tree would look in my dream scenario (taking into account what we already know about the game's systems so far).

View attachment 11041388

Open the image in a new tab to see it better.

I decided to ditch "programming" and move "social" under intelligence because (1) I think programming would be an underwhelming skill mechanically speaking and can be easily integrated within hacking and (2) social intelligence/human perception is a type of intelligence. I don't love social in intelligence but I think it makes about as much sense as putting it under the cool/willpower stat and this better balances the five stats functionally.

For reference this is what I wrote about my four added skills before:

I like this:ok:
The Original looks weak. Intelligence has only Hacking and Tech only Engineering. :(
 
"Additional Intelligence Skills:

- Social - (1) detect aggression; (2) detect fear; (3) detect deception; (4) highlights dialogues that will irritate; (5) highlights dialogues will persuade - basically this would act like human perception, telling V what skills are likely to persuade, intimidate, etc NPCs. "

Agreed, kind of the things I though when I said that (contrary to what have been said a lot on this forum) social skills in an RPG doesn't have to forcibly be auto-convince button.
 
Or maybe drop INTELLIGENCE (the player provides that) and re-introduce EMPATHY for both social skills and the ability to include humanity costs on cyberware?
 
Or maybe drop INTELLIGENCE (the player provides that) and re-introduce EMPATHY for both social skills and the ability to include humanity costs on cyberware?
Eh. I think I'd rather have INT if forced to choose. Although my idea for social included this bit from the first time I talked about it:

"a high leveled social character can perceive what will be effective [in dialogue] more so than other characters. That may sound OP, but this particular skill would be gated by humanity cost. So if V has 20% (just picking a random even number) of her cyberware slots used, then she loses the highest level perk ability under social."
 
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Why should we ever choose? Six stats is not that big of a number to manage. In a world of Cyberpunk, style makes your charisma, so omitting it in favor of Emphaty and corresponding skill tree is an adequate choice.
 
Why should we ever choose? Six stats is not that big of a number to manage.
Because empathy has so few skills associated with it (even in 2020) that it would seem weird to give it it's own stat IMO ... especially if they dont want to gate dialogue with persuasion checks (which they've already said) .


Getting 3-4 skills that are mechanically significant in a cRPG from that list doesn't seem very likely if there aren't persuasion checks.
 
I've always liked the idea of not having an "Intelligence" stat, that way you don't have players attempting to play characters smarter/dumber then they are. In fact in the heavily modified "HarnMaster" PnP RPG I've been running for about 40 years now I don't have one.
 
Because empathy has so few skills associated with it (even in 2020) that it would seem weird to give it it's own stat IMO ... especially if they dont want to gate dialogue with persuasion checks (which they've already said) .
Make your own, tie it to Cyberware again, repurpose some of the CHA skills, there are many ways to make it an actual stat.
 
I am glad there is no generic charisma/social/persuasion skills. I really hate this in RPGs as I always feel forced to max these out to not miss out of something.
Yeah I'm not a fan of the way persuasion works in basically any RPG that has them so far either. It's either a hard gate (stat not high enough so you can't do it) or a dice roll persuasion check. Both are really sub-par designs IMO.

What I was suggesting social be was a human perception style skill. Let me see if I can describe it. It does not limit your dialogue options, nor does it rely on random roles. Rather, it represents the character perceiving what is likely to persuade/intimidate/deceive/seduce/humor the NPC(s) they are talking to. So the more skilled your character becomes in "social," the more likely that the dialogue options will clue V into what dialogues might work when talking with an NPC.

I would think for ease of understanding for the player, each type would get a color. I.E. If the dialogue highlights green you know that means this option will make the NPC laugh. Red means intimidate. Pink means seduce. Blue means deceive. Yellow means persaude. Something like that.

The way I think it would best work in a progression system is to make V's social ability relative to their level. So say you have 1 perk point in persuasion. That means you see dialogues that will persuade a character equal to your level or lower. 2 perk points and you can see what will persuade a NPC equal to your 2 levels above V, or lower. Etc Etc Etc.

That way, it reflects the characters ability to perceive what would work in a conversation, but still gives the player the ability to choose whatever options they want.
 
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I'm not sure I'd call what CP2077 has "skills".
They're more like "perks" in that they give you additional abilities rather then improve you odds of performing a task.
 
They're more like "perks" in that they give you additional abilities rather then improve you odds of performing a task.
Well it's a stat/skill/perk blended system. But yes it does not appear to be built on improving odds of performing actions via dice rolls (thank goodness)

Skyrim is an example of just skills and perks. It actually worked pretty well there as a presentation of skills improving over time so I kinda like the Cyberpunk is trying something a bit similar but with stats added on.

Adding stats at the base of the skill/perk tree adds another level of complexity to it where skill/perk progression becomes gated without high enough stats. Also it's been said that Cyberware is definitely going to have an effect on stats/skills so that's another layer.

I think it'll actually be fairly comprehensive compared to most action RPGs. It's not going to be has broad based as some other games, but I remain hopeful it'll be varied, involved and fun.
 
Of all things done bad in Kingdom Coom Deliverance (everything else), the stats and progression and the interplay between skills and what player does is spot on and shows better example than anything on the market right now.
 
I am glad there is no generic charisma/social/persuasion skills. I really hate this in RPGs as I always feel forced to max these out to not miss out of something.

Yeah that was amazing part of TW3. You don't need any skills to see different outcome except a few minor choices. Only thing needed is your empathy.

I always have thought it's the common key of massively beloved RPGs like Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect and The Witcher, not allowing the player's choices to be controlled by system.

Of course there are other beloved RPGs representing the opposite case like Fallout 1, 2, NV, Disco Elysium and so on.. but size of fanbase is can't be compared. And I suppose there is a reason for it.
 
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