I'm a bit disappointed CDPR decided to stick with "levels".

[Secretz]

Levels as a form of character progression are fine in some games, but not this one, IMO. I don't need levels to make me feel a sense of character progression...I would rather get what we got in the pen & paper version; money and better stuff. Don't just tell me I can now move a little faster, shoot a little better and take a little more damage because I leveled up after a mission...pay me the eddies and let me go buy cybernetic implants like a targeting system for my eye, hardwired reflexes, and sub-dermal armor.

Going from poor street trash with nothing but a handgun and a dream to a near famous merc that has fancy homes, sweet rides and has eddies raining on them is a way better indicator of character progression to me than a simple number that now means I can match up with other people with that same number and won't be stomped on immediately.

 

[Restlessdingo32]

In TW3, there was NO WAY you could complete a quest 4 levels above you, because enemies became UNBEATABLE.

This is not true though. Even though the level on quests was clearly designed to gate them it failed to do so. In one TW3 playthrough I defeated Sarati on DM at level 8. It's a level 22 quest. The double wyvern fight is another good example. Pretty much every playthrough I was significantly under-leveled for that fight. The high level Armored Arachas in the cave quest is another good one. There are a lot of similar examples.

One of the more difficult encounters was that random level 30+ Hag in Velen (Northern Wind doesn't work due to level gap). Although, I don't believe that was a quest mob. It was just kind of there as a surprise for people going off the beaten path. Probably on purpose .

The level gap in those cases only meant two things. One, don't get hit. Without Quen up anyway. With a high enough gap in TW3 you'd get 1 shot. The other was the fight would take forever because you'd be slapping the enemy around and doing almost no damage. Do that fight, or the Sarasti encounter, at appropriate level and it drops in like 5-6 hits (Cat build anyway).

A couple of observation: if you don't like quests being impossibile to be completed then I don't understand why you're fine with levels at all. Illusion of choice?

I didn't say I was fine with levels. I can understand why they're still being used though. Again, it's an easy way to distinguish character/NPC power. If the PNP doesn't have them I'm surprised they were included. Adaptations don't need to be a perfect match but that area is kind of a big deal.

TW3 gave you the opportunity to waste your time trying to beat a lvl 15 quest after 3 hours in the game, but didn't give you the opportunity to complete the quest at all. Also, main quest already gated side missions since it was the only properly viable way to level up.

Heh.... That's kind of what I'm saying. I didn't avoid quests in TW3 because they were well above my level. I did them anyway. They took forever, sure. They were still doable. Whether this translates to shooter combat mechanics I couldn't say. Don't get hit doesn't go as far when things are shooting at you.

Regardless, it's not like having access to quests well above your level is much different from blocking you from knowing about them. The only core difference is you don't know about them in the latter case. If given a choice there I'd prefer the former. At least then you can make the attempt.

 

[Suhiira]

Yes. I think it's really irritating that you can't purchase something simply because you don't have enough street cred. It just doesn't sound like the best way to handle it?

As a former cop I'd say "Street Cred" is the perfect way to handle it. Your rep and who you know (i.e. "Street Cred) determines what "special" items you have access to. Someone selling illegal hardware isn't going to sell to just anybody that walks up waving a wad of cash, they might be an undercover cop or working for a "business" rival.

 

[fridgeband]

Levels can give you a sense of progression and achievement. My fear is that they'll be like Witcher 3 and nerf the xp you get from missions to 0 because you're 5 levels too high.

So long as I can do missions whenever I want and not get penalized for doing the main story first, I'll be happy.

I agree 100%

I want to get to max level, and then I will be to everyone else in the game "OHHH JOTARO..... MUDA MUDA MUDA!" all the enemies will try to stop me and I will just not take anything from them, I will be so strong and so fast, they will try to touch me but "ZAAA WAAAAARUDOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" (you know the high speed time stop mechanic from the first 40 minute gameplay video, I'm gonna LOVE using that)

I hope someone will eventually make a za warudo mod for cyberpunk2077.
it's going to feel good being level 99999999999999 and totally unstoppable at some point. Maybe at the end of the second playthrough, you know, hopefully New game + (absolutely 100% maxed out stats and skills and everything in the entire game unlocked) like a 100% playthrough, but like... 150%.... 200%? 300%. Yea.

 

[lelxrv]

As a former cop I'd say "Street Cred" is the perfect way to handle it. Your rep and who you know (i.e. "Street Cred) determines what "special" items you have access to. Someone selling illegal hardware isn't going to sell to just anybody that walks up waving a wad of cash, they might be an undercover cop or working for a "business" rival.

It seems to be the case with 77, according to Polygon. Street Cred unlock new toys.

 

[Kosciaty]

This is the most annoying thing in TW3. Enemy is 7 lvls higher then you, no way you can deal even 1 damage. 6 lvls higher - well if you fight for an hour and doesn't get hit, then you'll finally kill it. 5 lvls higher - easy peasy lemon squezy.

I'd love if CDPR didn't connect HP and DMG of enemy to difference between your and enemy level.

 

[Rawls]

Beating a quest 4 levels ahead of you is not impossible at all. 6-7 levels ahead becomes VERY challenging. But it's still doable. I hattori quest somebody mentioned before I usually play like 8 levels below. It's challenging, but certainly doable.

 

[Draconifors]

6-7 levels ahead becomes VERY challenging. But it's still doable.

Yep. It takes ages and is usually lethal if you make even just one mistake, but it can be done.

Some of the contracts in Witcher 3 I even prefer to do when they're red and the enemies ??, just so I can have a real challenge and a proper boss battle.

 

[Bloodartist]

This is the most annoying thing in TW3. Enemy is 7 lvls higher then you, no way you can deal even 1 damage. 6 lvls higher - well if you fight for an hour and doesn't get hit, then you'll finally kill it. 5 lvls higher - easy peasy lemon squezy.

I'd love if CDPR didn't connect HP and DMG of enemy to difference between your and enemy level.

The thing that annoys me is that the mobs are probably just the same as lower lvl mobs, they MERELY have higher level. They probably look the same, tote the same guns and weapons, have same cyber, etc. The only difference is that they are higher level. For level to have such an effect is just blatantly stupid and immersion breaking.

Not to mention the effect of "Well I guess I go carry shopping bags for this old lady for 5 levels worth" and LO AND BEHOLD I can actually kick those characters asses now...With nothing actually changing.

 

[Mybrokenenglish]

Beating a quest 4 levels ahead of you is not impossible at all. 6-7 levels ahead becomes VERY challenging. But it's still doable. I hattori quest somebody mentioned before I usually play like 8 levels below. It's challenging, but certainly doable.

Ok, I checked. It's been a while since my last playthrough. The "nearly impossible to beat red skull sign" appears with a 6+ levels gap and not 4. Sorry guys.

Hattori can be unlocked as soon as you get to Novigrad (recommended at lvl 10) and suggested lvl is 24 and not 26 as I stated.

Now, everything is possible, but slashing a bandit (that looks like every other bandit) for 20 minutes without being hit, IMHO, is quite far from the idea devs had when designed the game. And if "impossible" is not the right word, there must be something very close to it to describe the experience. Also, the game wants you to do quests at the right level because when you are too overleveled you don't get xp almost at all (1/15, I've checked) and useless loot because it's too weak. If you're too weak, the quest easily becomes a chore and the loot is too strong for geralt to handle.

I mean, if you play the game at the suggested level, it is very balanced. If you don't, it's not. Or at least I played at skull and bones and death march, don't know for the easier difficulties.

 

[Kosciaty]

Not to mention the effect of "Well I guess I go carry shopping bags for this old lady for 5 levels worth" and LO AND BEHOLD I can actually kick those characters asses now...With nothing actually changing.

That what I was saing. One time you barely can scratch enemy, than you level up and you kick ass. Even if nothig changed, no armor upgrade, no weapon upgrade, only one level more.

 

[Rawls]

Or at least I played at skull and bones and death march, don't know for the easier difficulties.

Yeah I normally play on blood & broken bones to allow a bit more flexibility with questing. Did DM once, didn't like the balance quite as much.

 

[moonknightgog]

The problem isn't level gating, it's that levels don't make sense. They feel too gamey. Too MMO.

Like in The Witcher 3, where there are level 3 drowners and level 14 drowners despite the fact that they are just simple drowners. It didn't make sense. In Cyberpunk, NPCs strenght should be defined by the experience and hardware improvements they have, not by generic levels.

 

[Swedrami]

This harkening-back to tried and proven and to this day still unmatched character progression à la 2001's Gothic is A-OK in my book.
It may seem antiquated and a bit too restrictive but it still works. And you know what they say about systems that work.

Having to actively seek out special NPCs (ripperdocs) for upgrades (cyberware) is also something which has worked out in the past (see, again, Gothic's teachers you can trade in learning points at for unlocking/upgrading skills/abilities).

 

[Suhiira]

The problem isn't level gating, it's that levels don't make sense. They feel too gamey. Too MMO.

Like in The Witcher 3, where there are level 3 drowners and level 14 drowners despite the fact that they are just simple drowners.

Levels work, IF ... and ONLY IF ... you don't have level scaling.

D&D is a classic example, a wolf is level 2, a wolf is (almost) always level 2. Yes, as a lower level character they're deadly, as a higher level one they're a nuisance at best. The whole level scaling thing is centered around the idea that whatever the player does they MUST be challenged. Oblivion took it to extremes and virtually every player thought it was a horrible joke.

Some players (and devs) think you must be able to go anywhere and do anything at any time thus the perceived "need" to level scale. Bull! Take 10 seconds to think about your IRL job, when you first started everything was a challenge, now, after a few years at the job you barely have to think to perform routine tasks. Your job didn't get any easier/harder, you gained experience and it's no longer a challenge.

I certainly understand the desire to reuse assets in a game, but tweak them just a little to differentiate between "low" and "high" level versions of MOBs. And yes, the player may occasionally (or frequently if they really do want a challenge) get their ass handed to them when they go someplace their character isn't experienced enough to handle, that's the nature of the game. Conversely in the latter stages of the game "routine", "mundane" encounters are just that ... insignificant. You're traveling from point 'A' to 'B', the challenge is when you arrive at point 'B' not each and every random encounter along the way.

 

[Krugaming]

This isn’t Ultima Online

 

[Draconifors]

Levels work, IF ... and ONLY IF ... you don't have level scaling.

Yeah, level scaling is the real issue because it makes no sense.

You mentioned Oblivion, which really is really bad with the scaling, but I'll mention Skyrim. At the start of the game you'll run into rats skeevers everywhere, but by level 30 or so you just run into bears and trolls instead. Skeevers and wolves are pretty much extinct at really high levels.

The Witcher games, thankfully, don't do that, so it would be reasonable to expect that Cyberpunk won't either. Static levels aren't a problem imo, and they do indeed give a sense of progression when previously incredibly tough enemies (the ?? type) become manageable or even easy to defeat.

 

[Bloodartist]

Yeah, level scaling is the real issue because it makes no sense.

No it ain't, because level scaling is basically the same as not having levels at all. There is an illusion of levels and progression but its irrelevant because of scaling. The fault of level scaling is that there also isn't meaningful progression. You can have progression without levels as I have been repeatedly saying.

Why aren't we talking roleplay systems like actual Cyberpunk 2020 or vampire the masquerade 5th edition, which have no levels? Its not like these games dont have progression or harder/easier enemies...

 

[Suhiira]

Static levels aren't a problem imo, and they do indeed give a sense of progression when previously incredibly tough enemies (the ?? type) become manageable or even easy to defeat.

100% agreed.

That's one reason I prefer character skill rather then level based games. It makes no sense to have a "Level 1" thru "Level 100" bandit. They're all bandits, some are just more skilled and better equipped then others.

No it ain't, because level scaling is basically the same as not having levels at all. There is an illusion of levels and progression but its irrelevant because of scaling.

Also 100% agreed.

 

[Kosciaty]

I don't know if it's right soultion for CP, but instead of upscaling or adding enormous amontus of HP and DMG, there sould be another method to increase difficulty of enemies. Like they have better AI, reaction time, accuracy, "faster" animation ( like heavy attacks become quicker and are not that slow anymore). Better gear is also an option, but it shouldn't be only difference.

I know it will mean much more work, but I think it will be much more appreciated to have such system implemented. How awesome it would be, if in TW3 if there are multiple opponents they would "communicate" between themselves or in case it would be one enemy it would be quicker on higher difficulties.