Cyberpunk 2077's Gameplay?

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You know for some reason, I really did not enjoy deus ex human revolution, and any deus ex game that came after that. It felt like my choices were severely limited, like in mass effect games. I feel like the only good mass effect game was mass effect 1, and I feel the only good deus ex game, was the classic original one. However, the story may have been excellent in mass effect 1, and the story may have been excellent in the original deus ex, but the actual gameplay itself in those two games were absolutely awful in my opinion, even though the story was excellent. It definitely affected my ability to enjoy those games as good as I could have.
:) correct DEUS EX 3.0 ..... the first was amazing. made this culture. 2 was good, not even taling about the other 2 that came after a a namesake.... if this can live up to where it was supposed to, i dont know. are we talking blade runner or deus ex love. not one dev has said its fodder. but its a pull off both. at least reference the fatherhood to these.... so many people dont know the roots of this genre. At least pay homage to it...........
 
:) correct DEUS EX 3.0 ..... the first was amazing. made this culture. 2 was good, not even taling about the other 2 that came after a a namesake.... if this can live up to where it was supposed to, i dont know. are we talking blade runner or deus ex love. not one dev has said its fodder. but its a pull off both. at least reference the fatherhood to these.... so many people dont know the roots of this genre. At least pay homage to it...........
I'm sorry, what is Deus Ex 3.0? :shrug:
 
If that's true, and I'm gladly willing to think that if anyone can confirm it's true, my new question is why would cdpr continue showing footage based on outdated game builds? I'm not assuming that, I'm just asking, if it is somehow actually the case. :shrug:
An old build might not mean many months ago. They can take parts of a build and work on it to have little to no bugs, and then show it to the public. I assume a live current build is a mine field.
Maybe some one with more knowledge can put some light on this.

In this video around 26:33 it confirms that they have a new build with better car physics, to feel more like Forza Horizon 4, and that they could have put that build into the demo for her to check it out.
If someone knows that game can he or she share some details about the car physics in it?
 
If someone knows that game can he or she share some details about the car physics in it?
Extremely impressive car physics/mechanics - mass transfer, drifting, and crazy adherence feel, quite state-of-the-art except pure sims-, sound... in an arcad-ish game.


this is motorsport4 from 2011, not even horizon4 from 2018 :)


Last edit - since this has been mentioned quite a lot as unrealistic expectations for CP77 - heel/toe rev matching downshifting (i.e. 7m25s) :


The devs saying that did shoot themselves a tad in the feet, unless they genuinely have it and then are some pretty C++ monsters.
 
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:) correct DEUS EX 3.0 ..... the first was amazing. made this culture. 2 was good, not even taling about the other 2 that came after a a namesake.... if this can live up to where it was supposed to, i dont know. are we talking blade runner or deus ex love. not one dev has said its fodder. but its a pull off both. at least reference the fatherhood to these.... so many people dont know the roots of this genre. At least pay homage to it...........
Deus ex was good but it's not exactly the "father" of the culture. There were many "cyberpunk" games released years before that (not official Cyberpunk branded but that gave deus ex the idea of how it's done and how it works, most notable that really inspired the creators of Deus Ex was Syndicate which was itslef inspired a lot by Pondsmith's work and so on). Cyberpunk culture was something well defined even before videogames came out in the mind of people that made it visible and defined the "general style", Pondsmith and his crew was one of those groups that tried to deliver it to people in a pen and paper style, Gibson books as well, he didn't invented, he picked it up and tried to deliver to the mass thru its perspective. Blade Runner was a good kick to define the standards. If you want to go even more ancient we could talk about Metropolis (Frizt Lang) in the 1920s as a good forefather. As you can see there's a lot of Cyberpunk common imagery , and this movie was shot almost 100 years ago.
csm_metropolis_26e0fdbe93.jpg
 
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An old build might not mean many months ago. They can take parts of a build and work on it to have little to no bugs, and then show it to the public. I assume a live current build is a mine field.
Maybe some one with more knowledge can put some light on this.

In this video around 26:33 it confirms that they have a new build with better car physics, to feel more like Forza Horizon 4, and that they could have put that build into the demo for her to check it out.
If someone knows that game can he or she share some details about the car physics in it?
THAT IS SO COOL!!!!!!!!!!!! WOW THANK YOU FOR SHARING! :D
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Extremely impressive car physics/mechanics - mass transfer, drifting, and crazy adherence feel, quite state-of-the-art except pure sims-, sound... in an arcad-ish game.


this is motorsport4 from 2011, not even horizon4 from 2018 :)


Last edit - since this has been mentioned quite a lot as unrealistic expectations for CP77 - heel/toe rev matching downshifting (i.e. 7m25s) :


The devs saying that did shoot themselves a tad in the feet, unless they genuinely have it and then are some pretty C++ monsters.
That's really cool. What is this heel toe thing (not 100% sure I fully understand), and how does that translate into driving/controls/keyboard mouse? I don't really understand what's going on. There's just a drift/break button so are you just talking about looking down and watching V move their feet on the pedals using the heel toe thing? I guess that would be cool, but who's gonna be looking down while driving? *look down* "wow I'm doing the heel toe thing!" *crashes car in epic wreck*

I mean, I don't really mind if the heel toe visual is there or not, (if I even understand it correctly) so long as we can actually control our cars well and drift nice. If they feel like adding in the toe heel movement, I'm okay with it, but if they don't add it it's okay too, but then again I'm sure some people really care about that, but I mean, you know. But hey, if CDPR does it, great that's fine and good, I wont complain at all, but then again I'm not sure I even know what I'm talking about of what you mean by that.

If you can, please explain more to me?

My perspective, assuming I even understand this, is I want to be focused on driving, watching where my car is, focusing on my actual ability to control the car in a way that isn't complicated and doesn't give me a headache. I'm happy what they say about all the cars being automatic, but then again, I never understood why people like manual, so maybe there is something to that that's special, but I'm totally in the dark, and have no idea why that matters, so I can't really say for sure, but maybe in 2077 the automatic is better than the automatic in 2020? Maybe there's an AI behind the automatic in 2077, and maybe in 2077 everything is manual, but it's all being controlled by an AI that is VERY good at controlling the manual better than a person ever could, thus resulting in what appears from the outside as "automatic" but on the inside, it's really an extremely sophisticated manual system? I mean, if I'm having fun driving and drifting, and I can feel like a super hero secret agent driving my car like a pro and the controls and nice and simple and easy to use and fun and comfortable, I'm probably not going to be interested in looking at my feet the whole time (I will just crash) or shifting gears when I could be keeping my fingers on more easy keyboard layout so I don't have to tap a manual button gear shift every second, get distracted and also crash.

I'm interested in hearing more about this though, since I'm 100% sure I don't fully understand what others are talking about.
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That is pretty cool. I like simple, comfortable, reliable, consistent, dependable controls I can trust, that allow me to have fun and feel like a pro level driver.
 
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Sad shit. If all cars are automatic, then they'd never make those cool animations. So they willfully removed that immersion increasing opportunity. Still they could increase FPP immersion by having some casual animations like eating/drinking or any other casual animation, since the car is automatic anyway. But i dont expect them to implement these, as they didn't even want to make basic gearshift animations, which we all are familiar with.

I can only take this as a developmental excuse to not spend time on those animations. Meaning they chose not to go that extra mile in increasing player immersion. Thus, my concern and disappointment still persists.
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What is this heel toe thing (not 100% sure I fully understand), and how does that translate into driving/controls/keyboard mouse?

Think you got a bit confused about the thread after seeing the Horizon 4 comment.

Heel Toe is a method used to drift, another method is handbrake method. I not asking for us to have full control over the process, that would just be confusing and extreme hard to perform in mouse/keyboard or controllers. I am obviously talking about pre-recorded/pre-defined animations being there.

There's just a drift/break button so are you just talking about looking down and watching V move their feet on the pedals using the heel toe thing?

Yes, and also gear upshift animation when speeding up, and a gear downshift animation when slowing down. Gear shifting being automatic (as in not a player input), its just a simple animation combined with the respective engine Rev audio queue. That itself increases immersion in FPP.

but who's gonna be looking down while driving? *look down* "wow I'm doing the heel toe thing!" *crashes car in epic wreck*

At a low FOV (field of view setting), you wouldn't even see your character's torso. So there, looking down will make you not see the traffic or road. But at full FOV, you wouldn't be fully looking down and missing the road view completely.

And i'm obviously not going to be looking down the entire time, but when i do, seeing those details there matters. Just the knowledge of those animations being there would immerse me more into the game and its whole FPP aspect. Thats the whole point of immersion anyway, immersion details are almost always the small things.
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but then again, I never understood why people like manual,

The manual shifting you are talking about, is the racing game mechanic of manually shifting gears at certain rev marks to smoothly transition into the next gear without losing speed. That mechanic adds a new skill to master in racing games, because otherwise, player would just be holding the acceleration key all the time and changing directions boringly.

I'm not even asking for that of mechanic (though if cyberpunk does have car races, then that mechanic would be more than welcome. because horse races in witcher 3 was just "holding down W and Shift, and occasionally waiting for the stamina to fill up").

I'm just asking for pre-recorded animations. The game already has the gear changing audio queue, so having a animation attached to that isn't too much to ask.
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Before someone brings up the argument of, "it would be immersion breaking if the vehicle gives a gearshift audio queue without our animation queue, when we are hanging through the window and shooting at chasers". That could easily be solved the vehicle not giving that sound queue when shooting. Which would further increase immersion. Or it could just have a Full Auto Pilot button which we press before hanging out the window. even that would be immersive.

But having those some bugs wouldn't even matter, because having those is better than not having any animation at all.
 
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Sad shit. If all cars are automatic, then they'd never make those cool animations. So they willfully removed that immersion increasing opportunity.

The Cyberpunk universe is one of faster than normal technological, social and geopolitical change.

Meanwhile in the real world manual gearboxes are likely dead by 2040s at the latest.

For 2077 to hold unto a dying technology against the Cyberpunk settings code ideas, would be more immersion breaking for me than whatever those techniques could bring.

Kinda like constantly running into rotary phones in Night City.
 
Apparently seems like is no more possible climb the walls according to an italian news site.

However i found the whole gameplay outdated. I seen first person game made better you have still this akward tunnel vision that is pretty unrealistic and clunky just look at the brawl scene.
 
In the gig trailer at 1:33 he shoots rockets from the secondary arm, now can we use pistol at the same time ?
Or any other one-handed weapon. Would be cool though.
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Apparently seems like is no more possible climb the walls according to an italian news site.

However i found the whole gameplay outdated. I seen first person game made better you have still this akward tunnel vision that is pretty unrealistic and clunky just look at the brawl scene.
Confirmed. :cry:

Everyeye >>> Multi :p
 
But the unarmed combat still worries me here, considering the game was suppose to be released way back on april, so were CDPR this behind on their own schedule? even so, i'd totally prefer waiting longer. But still. And the thing is, if they had shown more mechanics like grabs throws or even varieties of kicks, all buggy and unfinished.That would have been totally fine, but instead its the most basic form of fist fighting with heavy work in progress indications. I doubt that they would add new mechanics at this stage. So the most improvement i could expect now is polishing it to make it more impactful, responsive and adding new animations as variants to the existing attacks.

Right I'm also worried about the melee combat and gameplay in general as that is the weakest point of CDPR like we talked about, yet it's also true that they haven't really shown much or tried to impress. So it could go either way imo, they could one day post a video super focused on melee and that is just as unimpressive as what we saw already, or maybe it will be better. They're still being very cautious with showing combat of all forms, including firearms.

I 'm curious about what the martial artists around the city teach you, as one previewer mentioned, hopefully its not just stat changes for damage and that stuff.

The missed launch on april and september is hard to use to judge current footage, cause for example if you had to delay because of something that pushes back dev in general, then the state of the game today would be equivalent to where they would've been in january or so. Now instead, if the dev only got delayed in a way that didn't affect the quality of fighting and its animations and this is the state they were going to release in, that obviously it means they calculated badly.


Then i hope im wrong, for my own sake.



If it is truly a WIP content and that it would be further improved before release, like you and many others say, then my disappointment has already been significantly dispersed.



I fully agree, in retrospect i think i did go overboard by saying no one in their right minds would show WIP content.
Showing WIP and actual content is certainly a true and fair business practice. And it feels even better to know CDPR didnt polish a particular part of the game just for marketing or influencers.

But the unarmed combat still worries me here, considering the game was suppose to be released way back on april, so were CDPR this behind on their own schedule? even so, i'd totally prefer waiting longer. But still. And the thing is, if they had shown more mechanics like grabs throws or even varieties of kicks, all buggy and unfinished.That would have been totally fine, but instead its the most basic form of fist fighting with heavy work in progress indications. I doubt that they would add new mechanics at this stage. So the most improvement i could expect now is polishing it to make it more impactful, responsive and adding new animations as variants to the existing attacks.



There actually was a official communication from CDPR around the time of the early 2018, stating the aspirations/developmental objectives for Cyberpunk 2077, I am unable to recall where i read it, i suspect it was an article/thread or some investor briefing. The closest i could dig right now is this reddit post and this article.

The original seemed like CDPR's vision for cyberpunk 2077, it contained many motivational statements like CP77 becoming the most successful financially etc. But the ones that stuck to me were -

"Cyberpunk 2077 will be better than the Witcher 3 in every way possible"
"Cyberpunk 2077 will be the most immersive ever made" (most immersive at time of launch i guess)

It was an actual legit communication from CDPR, and not some some modified/over-hyped news regurgitated by some news outlet. And thus, those statements became the pillars of my hype and expectations for Cyberpunk. I do have way more realistic and down to earth expectations now.

But seeing mechanics that are very close to the witcher 3, where finding difference among them is hard. When they aimed for the game to be better in every way possible. And seeing basic immersion aspects being removed or poorly done when the game was supposed to be the most immersive.

Those are the causes of my disappointment.

I wasn't able to check the reddit one, page doesn't load idk why.

That article has some of the vaguest talk you could possible say about anything. Like "most immersive game ever made", what the hell does that even mean lol. Now I know what immersion is and how to implement it, but there's no common definition of it in the industry, and especially no common approach as for how to produce it, especially in different games, plus its a clear exaggeration that was just excitement.

This game plays very different to TW3 for what we've seen. Like for example, the amount of meaningful choices that we saw in the prologue alone, is far far superior to any quest in the witcher 3. And some of those choices require stats or skills so they are impacted by your char build, so that is strategic gameplay, not only action counts.

The biggest departure, and the one they made the most clear and put attention in, is that now you can use hacking for people or environments, stealth, guns, melee, diplomacy and exploration based on decisions, for the majority of the quests in the game. That's absolutely huge, its like doubling if not triplicating substantially how the game plays vs TW3.
Regardless of the quality of implementation we get for all these systems, which remains to be seen, consider this: a form of increasing overall gameplay quality in a game CAN be through quantity, why? because quantity is the prerequisite for variety. Now variety is not always needed or crucial in all games ofc, but in a cyberpunk rpg that tries to give you a much more personal adventure than in TW?, it's fundamental.

And we could go on further, talking for instance about the fact that in an advanced tech world, your gameplay will depend a lot more on gear, and different gear changes substantially what you can do and even gives new abilities with cyberware. Even at a basic level, the difference between a pistol and a shotgun and how you must use them is way bigger than changing one sword for another in witcher. Combining this with jumping that is clearly meant to make use of vertical level design which TW3 didn't have, and slow mo, double jump, weapons that ricochet bullets or penetrate walls, melee ones, and apparently a huge skill tree with over 200 ones.... this game is big man.

Perhaps it wasn't very obvious at the time, but TW3 was a very limited and repetitive game gameplay wise, much more so than this one for sure.
 
Sad shit. If all cars are automatic, then they'd never make those cool animations. So they willfully removed that immersion increasing opportunity. Still they could increase FPP immersion by having some casual animations like eating/drinking or any other casual animation, since the car is automatic anyway. But i dont expect them to implement these, as they didn't even want to make basic gearshift animations, which we all are familiar with.

I can only take this as a developmental excuse to not spend time on those animations. Meaning they chose not to go that extra mile in increasing player immersion. Thus, my concern and disappointment still persists.
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Think you got a bit confused about the thread after seeing the Horizon 4 comment.

Heel Toe is a method used to drift, another method is handbrake method. I not asking for us to have full control over the process, that would just be confusing and extreme hard to perform in mouse/keyboard or controllers. I am obviously talking about pre-recorded/pre-defined animations being there.



Yes, and also gear upshift animation when speeding up, and a gear downshift animation when slowing down. Gear shifting being automatic (as in not a player input), its just a simple animation combined with the respective engine Rev audio queue. That itself increases immersion in FPP.



At a low FOV (field of view setting), you wouldn't even see your character's torso. So there, looking down will make you not see the traffic or road. But at full FOV, you wouldn't be fully looking down and missing the road view completely.

And i'm obviously not going to be looking down the entire time, but when i do, seeing those details there matters. Just the knowledge of those animations being there would immerse me more into the game and its whole FPP aspect. Thats the whole point of immersion anyway, immersion details are almost always the small things.
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The manual shifting you are talking about, is the racing game mechanic of manually shifting gears at certain rev marks to smoothly transition into the next gear without losing speed. That mechanic adds a new skill to master in racing games, because otherwise, player would just be holding the acceleration key all the time and changing directions boringly.

I'm not even asking for that of mechanic (though if cyberpunk does have car races, then that mechanic would be more than welcome. because horse races in witcher 3 was just "holding down W and Shift, and occasionally waiting for the stamina to fill up").

I'm just asking for pre-recorded animations. The game already has the gear changing audio queue, so having a animation attached to that isn't too much to ask.
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Before someone brings up the argument of, "it would be immersion breaking if the vehicle gives a gearshift audio queue without our animation queue, when we are hanging through the window and shooting at chasers". That could easily be solved the vehicle not giving that sound queue when shooting. Which would further increase immersion. Or it could just have a Full Auto Pilot button which we press before hanging out the window. even that would be immersive.

But having those some bugs wouldn't even matter, because having those is better than not having any animation at all.
Thank you for explaining all that.
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I did say "first and foremost" not "exclusively". ;)
I know but what about all the other good points I made :shrug:
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That article has some of the vaguest talk you could possible say about anything. Like "most immersive game ever made", what the hell does that even mean lol. Now I know what immersion is and how to implement it, but there's no common definition of it in the industry, and especially no common approach as for how to produce it, especially in different games, plus its a clear exaggeration that was just excitement.
Usually, when a big triple A publishing company uses the word "immersion" it's usually just a marketing term, and massive buzzword, but not really having any real meaning.

REAL immersion is when the game world of the video game you are playing is very convincing and makes you feel like it's really "realistic" to the standards of what that game presents as it's lore, sort of like, the edges of the computer screen disappear and you forget for a small amount of time that you are actually playing a video game, because you sort of "dream" into the game because to you, for a short moment, it feels real. Then you get up and eat something and you're feeling the same feeling when you get drawn into a good book. Story, and Gameplay both matter for immersion among many other things. It's very complicated, but as I said, many types of fake immersion, and real immersion.

Obviously, you KNOW you're playing a video game, but it just feels better.
 
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REAL immersion is when the game world of the video game you are playing is very convincing and makes you feel like it's really "realistic" to the standards of what that game presents as it's lore, sort of like, the edges of the computer screen disappear and you forget for a small amount of time that you are actually playing a video game, because you sort of "dream" into the game because to you, for a short moment, it feels real. Then you get up and eat something and you're feeling the same feeling when you get drawn into a good book. Story, and Gameplay both matter for immersion among many other things. It's very complicated, but as I said, many types of fake immersion, and real immersion.

Hmm, is it complicated though? I think of an easy way to look at the term immersion is to think of immersing something in water. The thing is put into the water. Substitute the player for the thing and the game for the water and you have yourself video game immersion. In other words, the player feels like they are there, in the world, circumstances, whatever, when playing the game.

Customization is one component of that. This is my character. There are many like it but this one is mine. It relies upon these attributes and abilities, has this physical appearance, wears these clothes, has these tattoos, drives this car/bike,
the list goes on. Without all of this stuff it's very difficult if not impossible to create that sense of ownership over the character. And damn near anything the character interacts with or any characteristic of it can fill this void.

On the flip side.... damn near anything the character interacts with or any characteristic of it can afford customization. It's a very deep rabbit hole. There is only so far you can go with it. Otherwise you're designing the areas the player can customize for eternity. So cutting out certain options, provided whatever remains is "enough", isn't exactly blasphemy. It's probably inefficient since it means you did work you didn't implement. But... it happens.
 
Seeing these reviews of the prologue gameplay (though i didn't see a lot of it). Even though they say positive stuff, but deep down it feels like they aren't actually mindblown or extremely impressed.

I clearly know that Cyberpunk has even more dialog options, story paths and quest approach paths. As many of you say, it does have a huge variety of options more than the Witcher 3, like playing completely different character builds like strong fighter and hacker etc.

But most (assuming we haven't seen all of them, well obviously) of those options are low quality. example, i like combat so i'd pick a violent approach to a quest. But since combat doesnt feel good or standout in anyway, i would be left unsatisfied. I don't like the hacking path, so even i do go the hacking part, i would still be left unsatisfied. So ultimately I would be left with a overall mediocre experience no matter which path i choose.
 
Hmm, is it complicated though? I think of an easy way to look at the term immersion is to think of immersing something in water. The thing is put into the water. Substitute the player for the thing and the game for the water and you have yourself video game immersion. In other words, the player feels like they are there, in the world, circumstances, whatever, when playing the game.

Customization is one component of that. This is my character. There are many like it but this one is mine. It relies upon these attributes and abilities, has this physical appearance, wears these clothes, has these tattoos, drives this car/bike,
the list goes on. Without all of this stuff it's very difficult if not impossible to create that sense of ownership over the character. And damn near anything the character interacts with or any characteristic of it can fill this void.

On the flip side.... damn near anything the character interacts with or any characteristic of it can afford customization. It's a very deep rabbit hole. There is only so far you can go with it. Otherwise you're designing the areas the player can customize for eternity. So cutting out certain options, provided whatever remains is "enough", isn't exactly blasphemy. It's probably inefficient since it means you did work you didn't implement. But... it happens.

Immersion is indeed a much deeper and varied subject than how it is discussed in the games industry at the moment, (even GDC talks and books or papers on the subject are quite bare bones imo.)

This does mean though, that you have many different kinds of immersion that rely on different techniques, and thus some of them are super expensive and time consuming to implement, but others not so much. The most costly is ofc just trying to make the game as much of a complete simulation as possible like you described, but there are other ways.

The classic and now legendary 1st person vs. 3rd person discussion is precisely because 3rd person view can give you a kind of immersion that 1st person cannot and viceversa, its always a sacrifice.

In my experience, the most important things for immersion that you can realistically handle as a designer are just mental resources, such as attention. If for instance you are thinking about making a ton of customization options in a game just for immersion, then you'll quickly realize a better alternative is to design the game in a way that the player's attention isn't constantly fixed on looking for more customization, so basically keep them busy with the things that you actually have implemented so that the ones you haven't implemented can rest in the back of the player's mind or at least aren't being tested regularly. Problem is that this is harder or easier depending the game and player's expectations.

I'd say that in a game like this, an RPG, which is specifically presented and marketed as something that offers freedom and personal protagonism, you cannot side step this problem People will always be looking to push the boundaries of what can this simulation support and what it can't. It can still be immersive as an experience that makes your forget about the real world and base your decisions more on the fictional universe's details rather than meta gaming, but as for offering so much freedom of realistic quality that it feels like you're really there in the city of the future? that's impossible, a fool's errand.

That being said, CP2077 as a whole, based on the design decisions I see, is not trying to be very immersive in general, only in very specific things, such as its heavily thought out and researched lore, it's graphics, the 1st person cam that almost never takes away control from you, etc. The rest is quite standard just like TW3.
 
For me, immersion comes from interactivity and how believable a world is. It's a matter of how often the game reminds me it's a game. Suspension of disbelief is the opposite of what I need to feel immersed. I'm not affected by perspective, at all, probably the game I was more immersed in is RDR2 and it's TPP.
 
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