Symbiosis decks and leaders.

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So I've been playing a lot of symbiosis decks so far this season. I've tried it with precision strike, Mystic Echo and Call of Harmony. I'd like to share how I've faired and also get input from others on their most successful lists.

Precision strike is decent because the pings help setup alot of your damage cards. The hero power can help add a bit of tempo too. The thinning and control from the leader is great, but it limits your overall symbiosis swing potential in round 3.

Mystic Echo seemed like a natural fit. I was dissapointed with how Gord and Sage were performing in the deck. With so few units, tall punish really hurts. Also while copying call of the forest or Isengrams council can be powerful, the provisions left by the leader made it feel generally underwhelming.

Call of harmony has been the most successful list I've made so far. I run about 17 units and 8 nature cards. Going for 8 unique categories works pretty decent. You basically set up some kind of wombo combo with fauve where you go:
Isengrams council-fauve-call of the forest- treant protector
Or more consistently:
Fauve-Call-Protector or Great oak

The biggest issue I've found as an archetype is the lack of early tempo. Setting up symbiosis is really slow and often it is better to use some of your removal before you can play the minions that get value from them. I find that I usually get bullied out of round 1 before I can really set up a challenging board.

You can get some big swings with Eithne in round 3 and it definitely can be a really strong long round archetype. The issue I find is getting to the 3rd round in decent shape without getting bullied or bled too hard.

Overall I think the standout symbiosis card is actually Hamadryad. It feels like the best symbiosis engine because it is flexible in how you gain points with it.

Here is the best list I've come up with so far for symbiosis:

I'd love to know what other lists or leaders you all have been testing out. I am curious to get some other perspectives on viable ways to play symbiosis.
 
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DRK3

Forum veteran
I am afraid i dont have much advice on how to improve Symbiosis, but more of a wake-up call - im sorry to say, but Symbiosis is kinda bad.

I admire anyone who's sticking with it, specially devoted ST players, but i dont think someone will find a miracle decklist that actually makes it competitive with the other factions. ST dominated the meta (or was 2nd) for the past 9 months and its shocking to see a faction going from first to last overnight.

Symbiosis relies too much on giant Hamadryads, Gords that dont even go that big, and dont really have any tall removal, while NR, NG and SK typically run tall removal. Its a clear case of control beating boost decks.

If i were a ST player, i would consider revisiting elf decks. I always found them super strong and consistent, and im pretty sure they're the strongest ST archetype now, specially if the ST scenario can be played safely, as most are playing devotion and cant run bomb heaver.
 
I am aware it's kinda bad and even stated so in my post referring to the lack of tempo as well as why I thought Sage and Gord weren't really good options for the deck. I'm just curious about what others have got to work for them or how they might be using pieces of the kit to get value anyways. xD...I don't need a wake up call.

Also I made a decent call of harmony deck that I mentioned in the post as well. It's above average for a symbiosis deck I would say. Instead of going tall, it tries to benefit off of the treant tokens as well as cards like oak critters with cards like Dennis Cranmer and Great Oak.

I appreciate your input, but I'm more interested in refining a new list rather than just playing old decks.
 
I don't know what rank you're playing at or what you consider "above average," but DRK3 is right about Symbiosis. I don't necessarily agree about elves, though. SK cuts right through that elf swarm. NR outpoints it. New NG will fill the board with garbage. I would say dwarves might provide some semblance of competition because of armor and sheer points, but even that is a joke against current NR and SK.

The trouble with Symbiosis is that performance-wise MM ST units are straight garbage in comparison to some other faction. Berkerker is 9 for 5. Saskia is 10 for 11... On top of that, every new unit spawns a unit or two, which you would think "oh that's so good for symbiosis" but the reality is you can't play long round because your board is suddenly full of 1-2-3 point dryads and treants, and there is nothing in Devotion or nature to boost them more than one at a time. Also, the Echo card is blatantly the least useful out of all of them, which, in a world of echo tutors is a big freaking deal. Treant protector is a good card though, yay!

Now, onto Leader abilities.

MEcho is fine for the most part, though it's probably still best to use it for waters, which of course is 12p and doesn't do much in a sym deck. Still, opening round 3 with instant 21 is nice, though of course the advantage rarely lasts.

Forge is kinda decent, because obviously Tempering is a nature card, but of course if you're not running dwarves you're losing the armor perk, and without it Forge is even weaker. It's probably best used with Aglais. Which, by the way, Handbuff seemed to get a few extra cards with Freix, Dunca and circle of life, but to tell you the truth I saw zero improvement in performance overall. Yeah, I get a tall Aglais and Sheldon, but they aren't any taller than before, and it doesn't usually matter, anyway.

Strike is probably the strongest overall, but that's not saying much, obviously. I like to run it with Schirru, and you would think Schirru to be useful in this meta, with the ethereals and the 5-point king, but in reality, he won me a LOT more games burning MEcho waters in the old Harmony meta. Just meh now, barely get any value from him. The strike is still nice to extend the reach of your removal and with the Oak, but... the new ST cards don't synergize with it in any way. Symbiosis certainly doesn't need 3 more dead 2-point units on the board in round 3.

Call of Harmony is decent for those combos, yeah, but Harmony is basically dead in the water now. If you drop waters in melee, you can no longer move with hawk or poison with willow. If you drop it in ranged, your hawks are not getting 2 points of hurt, your smuggler doesn't proc, etc. It's crap, plain and simple. Yeah, I managed to create a playable deck with Call 10, but you're fighting yourself half the time, which isn't enjoyable in any way, even if you manage to win. Stupid, ridiculous nerf.

I tested Vigor handbuff, too, but Vigor is just laughably bad and handbuff isn't good enough to bail it out.

Movement decks were always my favorite, most elegant decks, in which every card pretty worked with others like a puzzle piece, but that's the only archetype I have not honestly tested since the patch. It got no support in MM, and it never had a decent win condition anyway, so why bother?

Anyway, enough rambling. All this time on my hands, because I have absolutely no desire to get back into the game atm, and likely not until the next season.
 

rrc

Forum veteran
So I've been playing a lot of symbiosis decks so far this season. I've tried it with precision strike, Mystic Echo and Call of Harmony. I'd like to share how I've faired and also get input from others on their most successful lists.
...
The biggest issue I've found as an archetype is the lack of early tempo. Setting up symbiosis is really slow and often it is better to use some of your removal before you can play the minions that get value from them. I find that I usually get bullied out of round 1 before I can really set up a challenging board.
...
Overall I think the standout symbiosis card is actually Hamadryad. It feels like the best symbiosis engine because it is flexible in how you gain points with it.
I'd love to know what other lists or leaders you all have been testing out. I am curious to get some other perspectives on viable ways to play symbiosis.
@Hegemonkey, I am ST main too. It hurts me (or baffles me) to see ST players constantly leave Guerilla tactics in the ditch. GT is my most favorite as I consider that as a super flexible and cool ability. I wish it gets +1 provision buff. It is a cool ability that is intentionally kept mediocre. I have been playing Guerilla tactics exclusively from MM trying Symbiosis decks, and my win rate is pretty decent - that is except SK. I climbed from Rank 5 to Rank 2 and probably facing non-meta decks - except SK.

The idea is Symbiosys/Handbuff/Aglais. Use leader on 5 point body and use Circle Of Nature to handbuff.

My Ranked match history against each factions:
Against MO - I have no problem facing MO. I easily deny their dominance with my lovely Hamadryad and if they move my unit, I will move it back so that two rows of Frost = one row of Frost. Even I faced one Ethreal deck and I used two leader charges and Rebuke in R3 to shut down in one turn.
againstMO.jpg


Against NG - I think players are still trying to figure out NG and I think I haven't faced fully optimised deck. But I still don't think the powerlevel difference is huge as most of these players played Echo and Assimilate-spy-creator.
againstNG.jpg


Against NR: The first game is with an unoptimised deck and also I haven't faced many NRs recently. May be NR is shut down with SK and people don't want to play NR?
againstNR.jpg


Against SY: Strangely I haven't faced many SY and this one was highly unoptimised.
againstSY.jpg


Against ST: I really feel bad for my ST siblings.. They play the pathetic Abaondened girl for getting a Symbiosis engine (in a non-harmony deck). I faced MF, ME and had no problem with them.

againstST.jpg


And against SK: Started facing more SK and seeing all the hate. Unless the SK Player draws really really bad, I don't think it is possible to win them. Initially they were trying Onslaught and Patricidal Fury.. but lately only Second Wind and man that is f**king strong. You can't go wide, you can't do tall, you can't bleed them (one Wild Boar of Sea and you are done).
againstSK.jpg


I am afraid i dont have much advice on how to improve Symbiosis, but more of a wake-up call - im sorry to say, but Symbiosis is kinda bad.

I admire anyone who's sticking with it, specially devoted ST players, but i dont think someone will find a miracle decklist that actually makes it competitive with the other factions. ST dominated the meta (or was 2nd) for the past 9 months and its shocking to see a faction going from first to last overnight.

Symbiosis relies too much on giant Hamadryads, Gords that dont even go that big, and dont really have any tall removal, while NR, NG and SK typically run tall removal. Its a clear case of control beating boost decks.

If i were a ST player, i would consider revisiting elf decks. I always found them super strong and consistent, and im pretty sure they're the strongest ST archetype now, specially if the ST scenario can be played safely, as most are playing devotion and cant run bomb heaver.
I agree ST has gone from good to pretty bad, but I still think Symbiosis is not utter trash. I will try to reach Pro Rank with my Symbiosis deck but I have to NOT FACE SK > 50% of the time. But all other factions I feel pretty comfortable with my symbiosis deck. If possible, I want to play a friendly match against you to show that Symbiosis is not bad.
 

Guest 4404014

Guest
Mystic Echo

Is absolute crap now. The 12 provision bonus was based on old harmony. It should be 14, I think, or more.

I have absolutely no desire to get back into the game atm, and likely not until the next season.

Yeah, it sounds like rambling but I feel this way, too. And I think it should be said again and again until devs finally get that it's not just rambling at the new thing but it's an established fact.

MM was fun until people figured out SK. Now, it's got 50% play rate, and it's impossible to win against it on even draw. Game is effectively half-dead.
 

Easha

Forum regular
I am playing some Gord-Symbiosis list with Dana at 9 so she can fetch Shaping Nature if I do not draw it R2.
It is most likely not the best way to play it and Symbiosis itself does not seem to be that powerful, but the fact that I can play a meaningful Dana deck alone is something I can appreciate. Hamadryad and Shaping Nature give you a nice initial tempo burst while the +2 per turn compensates for other slow plays. The issue is that such a tall body just begs to be removed. Frankly I do not care much if it is competitive - it feels good to play nonethelss. Just make the Wandering Treant a unit with Order: Move this card to the other row. to make it literally wandering - thus giving Movement some support - and I am happy.
 
I don't know what rank you're playing at or what you consider "above average,"

By above average I mean it's decent enough of a list that I will make pro rank with it. Also the only harmony card I run is trained hawk and that is mostly for movement and the beast tag. You do make a good point that most of the new ST cards are low tempo as far as immediate point value is concerned.

You can still play wide token style decks against NG, you just have to be smart about how you play it. SK on the other hand is a heavily unfavorable matchup for tokens, but they have answers for every kind of board state it feels like at the moment anyways xD.

P.s.
I added a link to the best list I've come up with so far to the OP.
 

Guest 4404014

Guest
I added a link to the best list I've come up with so far to the OP.

Cool hybrid but it's not really a symbiosis deck when you got 7 specials.

Plus why in the world would you use Marauders after the Dryad Enchantress change (not 6 but 7 for 4 plus synergy with Hemadryads). Influence of a certain "cool" youtuber? ;)

Also, with CoH allowing you to play two cards in one turn you really want that Agleis. Crammer is 12 point ceiling. It's a clown card imo.
 
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I initially gave it a go with CoH as a leader and was constantly adjusting the deck to finally end up with 11p tutor for this ability - I run Pecival, Chariot, Hawk and a trap to get it to work. Although it lacks full Symbiosis package, it still brings some Harmony options and playing Eithne + CotF/Fauve/Protector in one round gives huge tempo play and lets you utilize Symbiosis for a round or two without long setup.

I later switched to ME and went all-out Nature with Gord (11 specials, with CotF and Isengrim's Council), which added needed consistency and allowed to put Vrihedd Brigade for movement, Sage as an additional engine and defender to cover my Hamadryads, but still struggled against SK/NR.

The last iteration I play now is non-devotion ME with tech cards like Squirrel, Fortune Teller and Igni, just to cope with Echoes and SK graveyard game. Symbiosis is literally gone, with only Hamadryads and Eithne supporting it. Idea for the deck is buffing Aglais as much as I can before R3 (Dunca/Circle of life), then putting her back to the deck with final mulligans to tutor her as last play with +8 boost from Echo card. I am able to get 25-40 points out of it, but it's important to have the last play.

And sadly, Duen Canell Guardian and Abandoned Girl are trash, they need provision/power adjustment.

All in all, new ST is ok, but it just loses to other new overpowered archetypes.
 

Breli

Forum regular
Generally, I really really like the idea and mechanic of symbiosis. Definately a nice touch and cool idea. However, I don't think you can build a deck around that. It is a nice extra, but it will not win you games in the current meta IMHO.

I'd love to know what other lists or leaders you all have been testing out. I am curious to get some other perspectives on viable ways to play symbiosis.

I mainly play ST and tried a pure devotion/symbiosis deck after lauch. While I like cards like Hamadryads and Freixenet, I never got it to work properly. It basically auto loses to SK and struggles against almost everything else from my experience. The "forced" sequencing is the key issue. You have to developed your symbiosis engines before you can play your nature cards. Most of your engines will die along the way. Young dryads are just too weak. Moreover, you usually cannot wait to play Natures Rebuke/any other nature card. You need to kill threats as they emerge and not once you are done setting up your engines. So you will loose points either way. It only works against decks that don't run removal and let you do your thing ;)

Finally, Circle of Life as a card? I wouldn't play that garbage at three provisions. Whoever balanced that card should take a look at the SK bronzes and try again.

The idea is Symbiosys/Handbuff/Aglais. Use leader on 5 point body and use Circle Of Nature to handbuff.

Your deck is an Aglais deck and symbiosis is just a nice extra, right? I assume you could ditch all the symbiosis stuff from your deck and it will perform equally well ;)

I have given up on a pure symbiosis/devotion list for now and play a hyperthin/Gord variant with a touch of symbiosis. Every now and then, when the stars align it actually puts out some points. Just an hour ago I succeeded in bleeding a monster deck with three (!!!) Kikimore Queens on the board. But that is an exception.
 
Cool hybrid but it's not really a symbiosis deck when you got 7 specials.

Plus why in the world would you use Marauders after the Dryad Enchantress change (not 6 but 7 for 4 plus synergy with Hemadryads). Influence of a certain "cool" youtuber? ;)

Also, with CoH allowing you to play two cards in one turn you really want that Agleis.
Crammer is 12 point ceiling. It's a clown card imo.


I run marauders because they are a proactive play and Enchantress is not. Enchantress is worse in short rounds for sure. Also it let's me run less Dryads in the list for Isengrim's. I disagree about Agleis, she is gimmicky. 12 for 8 on Cranmer is pretty good I would say.

The CoH combos I came up with where you play 2 or 3 nature cards in r3 on the same turn as Eithne is where most of the symbiosis comes in, but you can still spawn a few tokens in r1 or 2.

Forest protector is an additional special. I think lists that commit too hard to the nature cards that aren't as good is actually a mistake. Decks only run 25 cards so you don't have to overdo it to get good synergy.
 
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rrc

Forum veteran
...
Your deck is an Aglais deck and symbiosis is just a nice extra, right? I assume you could ditch all the symbiosis stuff from your deck and it will perform equally well ;)

I have given up on a pure symbiosis/devotion list for now and play a hyperthin/Gord variant with a touch of symbiosis. Every now and then, when the stars align it actually puts out some points. Just an hour ago I succeeded in bleeding a monster deck with three (!!!) Kikimore Queens on the board. But that is an exception.
...
Without the symbiosis, the deck will have tempo issues. I run 10 nature cards and Eithne too for R3 Symbiosis. Sometimes in short R3 Eithne plays for just 10 😭, but it is not a deal breaker since Aglais makes up for that. I have had many games in which I didn’t draw Aglais and still won. Yesterday reached Rank 1 and for the final jump from R2 to R1 I faced SW on blue coin who played the same shit in the same order, but I won due to good hands.
I am not saying Symbiosis is strong. I am saying that it is not utter trash. Just saying that Guarila Tactics for Symbiosis Is not a bad idea. If possible let’s get into a friendly game and I will show the power of GT-Symbiosis deck. (But please don’t bring SK 😛)
 
Without the symbiosis, the deck will have tempo issues. I run 10 nature cards and Eithne too for R3 Symbiosis. Sometimes in short R3 Eithne plays for just 10 😭, but it is not a deal breaker since Aglais makes up for that. I have had many games in which I didn’t draw Aglais and still won. Yesterday reached Rank 1 and for the final jump from R2 to R1 I faced SW on blue coin who played the same shit in the same order, but I won due to good hands.
I am not saying Symbiosis is strong. I am saying that it is not utter trash. Just saying that Guarila Tactics for Symbiosis Is not a bad idea. If possible let’s get into a friendly game and I will show the power of GT-Symbiosis deck. (But please don’t bring SK 😛)
Can you share the deck or something? I don't get how GT synergizes with both, handbuff and 10 nature cards in the same deck. Do you run like no other movement cards at all? How is GT beneficial then?
 

rrc

Forum veteran
Can you share the deck or something? I don't get how GT synergizes with both, handbuff and 10 nature cards in the same deck. Do you run like no other movement cards at all? How is GT beneficial then?
Dear @Barracuda88, Yes, my deck doesn't run any other movement cards or even cards that synergise with movement (like Matron or Sentinel or Malena or the other guy no one uses - who when moved does 2 damage to random enemy). Your question is valid though, 'how does GT beneficial' for my deck? I use it mainly to move engines out of their lane or use leader and then circle of nature ( :cry: ) to kill engines and handbuff. I know the idea sounds weird, but I am having a good run with it. I am two steps away from hitting pro rank. If I manage to reach Pro rank, then I will share the deck with you - first let me make sure that it is share worthy. If you want to get the feel of the deck, send me friend request and we can play a few friendly games and I will show you how I pilot the deck. I don't shy away from using all three charges of my leader in R1 itself, if it is needed to secure last say in R3.
 
Dear @Barracuda88, Yes, my deck doesn't run any other movement cards or even cards that synergise with movement (like Matron or Sentinel or Malena or the other guy no one uses - who when moved does 2 damage to random enemy). Your question is valid though, 'how does GT beneficial' for my deck? I use it mainly to move engines out of their lane or use leader and then circle of nature ( :cry: ) to kill engines and handbuff. I know the idea sounds weird, but I am having a good run with it. I am two steps away from hitting pro rank. If I manage to reach Pro rank, then I will share the deck with you - first let me make sure that it is share worthy. If you want to get the feel of the deck, send me friend request and we can play a few friendly games and I will show you how I pilot the deck. I don't shy away from using all three charges of my leader in R1 itself, if it is needed to secure last say in R3.
OK, sent request. At work now, so I'll try to maybe have a couple of matches later today if you're available then.
Funnily enough, that guy who no one uses is actually the best point-per buck use of GT leader ability. With sentinel down, and no armor pings you're getting a whopping 15-point play out of that guy :D 17 if Malena's alive
 
@rrc

I definitely like the utility GT brings. Honestly I haven't tried it yet with symbiosis because I feel the leader lacks Burst potential for big swings. Maybe it's the supergreed in me that overlooked it.
 
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Here is a deck I made last night that feels pretty solid. It's fun and flexible. WoB can still be a strong card when played right. The biggest thing the harmony nerf did was discouraging double waters in round 3. So getting harmony value requires a new strategy for your macro gameplan. The strength of this deck is going wide with threats never going very tall. It's pretty flexible overall.
 
I can attest that Symbiosis is rather strong. I just lost to a Mystic Echo Devotion deck using a Second Wind Warrior Devotion deck. My opponent also played 2 Sages, and if you don't remove every single one of their engines, then the points can get out of hand rather quickly.

Regarding which leader to use, I would stick with Mystic Echo, seeing as it can still be used to replay Waters of Brokilon, which is still pretty overpowered. Just be sure to play Waters in two separate rounds to avoid the Harmony nerf, and you have a really strong deck.
 
The biggest issue I've found as an archetype is the lack of early tempo. Setting up symbiosis is really slow and often it is better to use some of your removal before you can play the minions that get value from them. I find that I usually get bullied out of round 1 before I can really set up a challenging board.

This reminds of some decks that I liked on MTG which had this same issue. They would be great if a long game was possible but for some of those decks a lack of manna early would hurt.

On this forum I've called for an ability to choose your opponents/factions. On MTG it would have been fun to be able to select similar long game decks to play against and see which one prevailed. Even though I wasn't a good player on MTG, my long game decks were just too losing to play them much, as they weren't much fun as a result.
 
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