To CDPR: The importance of Combat

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Just wanted to clarify my thoughts on Combat, which is reportedly "not so pleasing."
Yes, I do understand that in the demo, the blessed ones had low experience in weapon handling. (ROFL, everyone said its stupid when I was a Game Designer...)
BUT! There was a developer quote about something like "It's not call of duty, it's an RPG."
>> To be honest, this goes wrong once again, just like in Witcher 3.

Let's face it, W1 & W2's combat was so unpleasing that CDPR had to improve it for W3 seriously.
IMO it still wasn't so enjoyable, yet far better than previous releases.

>> So let's face it, when a game is about "50% story, 50% combat", You must understand how important combat really is!
Just look on Fallout and Skyrim, where the biggest design flaws were the combat. In the end, most of us will fight, don't we?

I think I'll be heard, and when our characters getting experienced with any type of weapon, we'll get that weighted feel of shooting and slashing that FPS players expect.
Yes, that's right. In an FPS only game, the design has to face FPS experienced players mostly. Roleplayers are TPS oriented, so there is a huge risk anyway.

P.s.: At least I may be able to mod it for the community if combat doesn't meets player's expectations once again.
 
I think its potentially mainly melee combat that can feel "off".

Shooting with hitscan weapons is... well its not like its super difficult to pull off. Its more about balancing the weapons and coming up with good looking animations (mainly for targets being hit). In melee you need to take care of your position in relation to the enemy and stuff, movement speeds, attack ranges, AI, IN ADDITION to coming up with good looking animations that feel good.

What I have seen so far is decent. I am happy with it.
 
People loved Skyrim. They still love. I still enjoy it. And Skyrim is 95% combat.
And you really must try exceptionaly hard to even get close to how bad the combat is in that game, and probably fail. So, I won't worry about combat. Shooting seems better than any given title save dedicated mil sim shooters, melee seems ok, far better than any given title save dedicated melee simulator like Kingdom Come.
And there's some 4 months left (I hope not a single day more...) and it still can be fine tuned. It won't be perfect, it won't please everyone. It only need to get the job done, and do it in satisfying way. And most hands on review seem to share the same view: it gets the job done and is satisying.
 
I heard at least two of the people who played the preview build say they spent much more time talking than fighting in the game. But even if that's true, there is no doubt that combating feeling at least decent is very important. As long as it's varied and doesn't take away from the overall experience though, I'll be content.
 
I hope that as our combat skills improves, it add diversity to the fights, a reviewer said they were very "down to earth" which isn't bad per say, but after 20hours, if we have to use the same tactics over and over again, it may feel boring/redundant.

In most Rpg with very basic combat mecanics, after a while, every mobs are more a waste of time than a "thrilling encounter".
 
I heard at least two of the people who played the preview build say they spent much more time talking than fighting in the game. But even if that's true, there is no doubt that combating feeling at least decent is very important. As long as it's varied and doesn't take away from the overall experience though, I'll be content.

Im sure that is down to individual playstyle. You can't expect us to play a cyberpunk game without combat. Thats just not cyberpunk. As others have said, combat needs to be "good enough". Its not a terribly high barrier, but it is a barrier.
 
In a game where the vast majority of stats/skills/perks are combat related and where combat fun have prevalence over immersion, I don't think it is strange to thinks combats are importants.
Actually they are probably the second most important thing in the game after story.
 

4RM3D

Ex-moderator
You can't expect us to play a cyberpunk game without combat. Thats just not cyberpunk.

And what if you want to roleplay the pacifist route? It was possible in Deus Ex: HR (after they remade the silly boss fights). Though, there was still combat. Well, in Fallout 1-2 you could talk/hack your way through the game.
 
In a game where the vast majority of stats/skills/perks are combat related and where combat fun have prevalence over immersion, I don't think it is strange to thinks combats are importants.
Actually they are probably the second most important thing in the game after story.

But combat doesn't have to be like, excessively detailed or deep for us to enjoy.

I enjoy Conan exiles, even though its combat system isn't really that much more detailed than Witcher 3 and it has next to no roleplay elements (like, cutscenes, characters and stories). Theres just loads of weapons, which all have like 2 different attacks (light and heavy). The combat is good enough and the sandbox is awesome, so conan is good.

RDR 2 and GTA 5 have immersive looking melee combat, but it doesn't have 'depth' as such any more than the aforementioned games. Theres parry, grab, strike (not even heavy strike), and you can hit or throw grappled enemy. Thats more or less it. The difference to Conan is that its better animated.

For as long as we get weapons and cyber with enough variety in combat, I will probably be just fine with CP2077 combat. I say this as a former esports fighting game player. You dont NEED to be frikken Tekken to have enjoyable and immersive combat. The animations can also be adjusted post-launch.
 
People loved Skyrim. They still love. I still enjoy it. And Skyrim is 95% combat.
And you really must try exceptionaly hard to even get close to how bad the combat is in that game, and probably fail. So, I won't worry about combat. Shooting seems better than any given title save dedicated mil sim shooters, melee seems ok, far better than any given title save dedicated melee simulator like Kingdom Come.
And there's some 4 months left (I hope not a single day more...) and it still can be fine tuned. It won't be perfect, it won't please everyone. It only need to get the job done, and do it in satisfying way. And most hands on review seem to share the same view: it gets the job done and is satisying.
I agree in some ways, and disagree in other ways. Skyrims combat was definitely awful, However, even though it was very bad, it was also extremely easy and intuitive.
Witcher 3 combat was awful, but it wasn't easy, it was tedious and clunky and frustrating.
I rather Cyberpunk have awful combat that is extremely easy, than awful combat that is extremely frustrating and difficult.
Hopefully, Cyberpunk2077 combat is both Good, and easy to use, and challenging without being frustrating.
 
I personally love the idea of animations becoming tighter as the character gains experience. It's not something that mainstream players would care for, but for an RPG fanbase I would assume there will be plenty of pleased people.

The prospect of a character handling a weapon as well as any other person out of the gate is just asinine and doesn't really follow a character progression. In Fallout 4 you have a lawyer handling a firearm and survival situations out of cryo just as well as a veteran soldier during wartime which is just dumb.

I think CDPR made the best call in the situation, especially considering it's an FPP game (it's hard to make true hardcore RPG that isn't top down or number-based).

As another user put as well, let's look at Skyrim which has arguably some of the worst combat for either an FPP or TPP game. I'd argue it's actually terrible at a lot of things and it's shallow as heck, but it's also an extremely well selling product. With some mods it's actually great at allowing one to play a ton of different roles. I even had hundreds of hours into it despite personally thinking it was a "bad" RPG.

While I agree that combat is important, it's certainly not all that is necessary to make a "masterpiece". Hell, Fallout 2, and New Vegas are probably two of my favorite RPGs of all time and two games I'd argue are close to masterpieces. Witcher 3 is up there as well.
 

Nefla

Forum regular
I will admit, all FPP is the same to me. I can't tell the difference between "good" and "bad."
 
I don't like this idea that RPG's are not supposed to have good combat or mechanics. Since when was this a thing? Many rpg's are good games in spite of having poor combat, but the combat is always a sticking point for many gamers. See the fallout series.
 
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I don't like this idea that RPG's are not supposed to have good combat or mechanics. Since when was this a thing? Many rpg's are good games in spite of having poor combat, but the combat is always a stocking point for many gamers. See the fallout series.
I agree wholeheartedly. Just because the game I'm playing happens to be an RPG doesn't mean it shouldn't be given the same attention to detail as other genres when it comes to combat! When you have to make excuses for combat being half-baked, or not fun due the genre, I think you're settling for less, and it begins to affect the genre as whole. When did it ever become normal that RPGs shouldn't, or usually don't have awesome combat? Obviously I'm not a Dev, and a lot more goes into it than we think, but still respect your audience and consumer base enough to create a combat system that is good to look at, good to play, but lends itself to the world you're in paving the way for nuanced encounters. "Nier: Automata" is a perfect example of this.
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I personally love the idea of animations becoming tighter as the character gains experience. It's not something that mainstream players would care for, but for an RPG fanbase I would assume there will be plenty of pleased people.
Agreed. I'm so used to the idea that if I pick up a weapon that my character has never used before, they will automatically know exactly how to use it? And, when you really consider it that's very bizarre! Of course my level 1 character won't hold, or swing the katana right, or in a way that accentuates the weapon itself because they have zero experience with that weapon, also from a roleplay/immersion standpoint you're character is literally fighting for their life having no clue how to use a particular weapon, to see them progress and improve numbers wise as well as in form and animation is almost a foreign concept in terms of being used in gaming
 
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The Problem in The Witcher 3 was the lack of variety and how repetitive it got,dont get me wrong the combat itself wasnt that great but its made worse that there aren't different types of weapons and how differently they handle,atleast in Cyberpunk there is a variety of weapons from guns,katana,haevy weapons and hacking to atleast keep it fresh.
And it also helps that the more you use a weapon the better you get at it which is awesome.
 
I agree wholeheartedly. Just because the game I'm playing happens to be an RPG doesn't mean it shouldn't be given the same attention to detail as other genres when it comes to combat! When you have to make excuses for combat being half-baked, or not fun due the genre, I think you're settling for less, and it begins to affect the genre as whole. When did it ever become normal that RPGs shouldn't, or usually don't have awesome combat? Obviously I'm not a Dev, and a lot more goes into it than we think, but still respect your audience and consumer base enough to create a combat system that is good to look at, good to play, but lends itself to the world you're in paving the way for nuanced encounters. "Nier: Automata" is a perfect example of this.
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Agreed. I'm so used to the idea that if I pick up a weapon that my character has never used before, they will automatically know exactly how to use it? And, when you really consider it that's very bizarre! Of course my level 1 character won't hold, or swing the katana right, or in a way that accentuates the weapon itself because they have zero experience with that weapon, also from a roleplay/immersion standpoint you're character is literally fighting for their life having no clue how to use a particular weapon, to see them progress and improve numbers wise as well as in form and animation is almost a foreign concept in terms of being used in gaming
Pretty much almost agree with everything you said :D
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Yes, let's give them a big point for this : you have to practice your style if you want to get better at it.
This is according to my vision of a good RPG. Practice means roleplay to me.
As long as it's not made to be a grind, at least not an unrealistic grind, then I love this. :D
 
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