Two in One leader changes

[Slizzl]

Am I the only one getting a bit anxious of what's to come with these upcoming leader changes?
I know these leaders can be very strong and needs tweaking but there's also a lot of weaker decks reliant on these abilities like Bounty with Wild Card into Slander. I fear older decks like this might be left even more obsolete with this upcoming change.
How would you go about doing these changes without ruining these archetypes in the process?

 

[ReaperTek]

It was about time they finally decided to get rid of the Tudor Leaders a lot of them were almost always superior to the actual Leader that was made for an Archetype best examples Second Wind GS to Reckless Flurry and like the example you gave Wild Card Slander and Graden it made a lot of powerful combo plays possible which usually came with a risk of one of the combo Cards getting removed or purified.

Since they need to rework a lot of Skills, I highly doubt all of them will end up being viewable.

If I would need to take a guess about the reworked skills, I think a lot of them will end up being something like Uprising and Precision Strike use x Charges and spawn a supportive Unit or a Token (I heard Scoia'tael likes Tokens )
Something like Double Cross give an enemy unit spying charge: 3 Once all Charges are used up spawn and play Seditious Aristocrats or maybe some other reworked skills becoming something like Arnjolf to bring back some of the old Leader Arts maybe something like Death Shadow trigger a allied unit's Deathwish charge 2. Once all Charges are used up spawn and play Unseen Elder (Consume 2 Units).

I'm happy about that change and it will hopefully make the Game feel a bit more interesting with the "new" skills to try out.

 

[Six-Sided-Prism]

It would be nice if they added some more abilities that directly correspond to an archetype, like Wild Hunt for Monsters or Traps for Scoia'tael.

I've also been wondering what's going to happen to the mastery contracts for the leader abilities that are being replaced. I have notable progress on a number of them, and I'm kind of hoping that it will be carried over to the replacement leader abilities. But regardless of how they proceed, I at least hope that CDPR has noticed that this is something which they need to address when they implement their changes.

 

[ReaperTek]

I've also been wondering what's going to happen to the mastery contracts for the leader abilities that are being replaced. I have notable progress on a number of them, and I'm kind of hoping that it will be carried over to the replacement leader abilities.

But regardless of how they proceed, I at least hope that CDPR has noticed that this is something which they need to address when they implement their changes.

It won't affect the contracts a lot of skills were already reworked before like Deadeye Ambush, Impirial Formation, Precision Strike and Death Shadow they will just replace the old one's with some of them maybe getting new Names.

 

[InkognitoXI]

I have considered them to be problematic since homecoming started, they either end up being meh or over the top broken.
It is good to see them going, even if the new ones are not necessarily viable right away, it would still be better than with those abilities.

 

[quintivarium]

It would be nice if they added some more abilities that directly correspond to an archetype, like Wild Hunt for Monsters or Traps for Scoia’tael.

I don’t mind leader abilities supporting archetypes but I would hate to see them tied to archetypes as this 1. Telegraphs a deck to the opponent and 2. Reduces flexibility, creativity and variety in deck building.

I use second wind with with at least 4 very different SK decks: direct damage, self damage, rebirth, mass damage-heal. It is this flexibility that justifies something being a leader ability as opposed to a card ability.

 

[Six-Sided-Prism]

I don’t mind leader abilities supporting archetypes but I would hate to see them tied to archetypes as this 1. Telegraphs a deck to the opponent and 2. Reduces flexibility, creativity and variety in deck building.

I use second wind with with at least 4 very different SK decks: direct damage, self damage, rebirth, mass damage-heal. It is this flexibility that justifies something being a leader ability as opposed to a card ability.

Then I guess we disagree because I think it's a failure when practically every Skellige deck chooses Second Wind, every Scoia'tael deck chooses Mystic Echo, every Northern Realms deck chooses Uprising, etc. Considering there are seven different leader abilities for each of the factions, they should all be somewhat viable, even if only in a specific deck; however, when one of the leaders is super flexible, then the rest will never see any play. At the very least, specialized abilities should always be significantly stronger than the generic ones. That way, players will have to decide whether they want more synergy/points at the cost of opponents recognizing their deck from the start and being able to gain an advantage during the initial Mulligan phase.

Personally, I like creative abilities like Mahakam Forge. The only reason it doesn't see more play is because the Dwarf archetype hasn't been fully developed; the ability itself is very good.

 

[rrc]

We can start betting which leader ability will be changed to be the shittiest of all the new abilities.. My bet would be ME being the shittiest closely followed by Call Of Harmony.. you know like how ST has been getting in last several expansions/versions..

 

[Hegemonkey]

I'm excited for the changes. Even if it kills some old decks, there will be plenty of space for new ones and hopefully a fresh meta.

We can start betting which leader ability will be changed to be the shittiest of all the new abilities.. My bet would be ME being the shittiest closely followed by Call Of Harmony.. you know like how ST has been getting in last several expansions/versions..

The problem with ST is that right now it's fair... and people don't play things that are fair xD

 

[Guest 4368268]

Well first and foremost I'm just glad that they're getting rid of these kinds of leaders.
I mean pincer maneuver is a good example of why it's bad design. If they play defender + vysogota and you don't (immediately) answer that it'll quickly snowball and can checkmate you right quick. Granted, this doesn't actually happen often because people on a competitive level are prepared for it but still. I think it's best to try and move away from "if I get this off I have a 99% percent of winning if it gets answered about 10%" kind of situations.

I actually love tutor leaders and I wish all leaders were one-shot leaders that you use in a turn of their own. But since we're not going back to that it's better to just get rid of them.
As far as their replacements go.. the safest bet will be that some will be OP and others laughable/boring.

 

[Breli]

Am I the only one getting a bit anxious of what's to come with these upcoming leader changes?

No.

How would you go about doing these changes without ruining these archetypes in the process?

Well, I understand the rationale and from a balancing perspective, this is something that needs to be done. One can argue, however, how "oppressive" Call of Harmony and Double Cross (and others) really are. But that is not the point.

Personally, seeing these abilities go also makes me a bit sad. Why? These abilities, while being problematic from a balancing perspective, also brought a lot of flavour and unpredictability to the game. The most interesting combos and whacky counter plays were quite frequently done with these abilities. How many of the clips from the Dandilion Show are directly associated with these abilities?

Think about it and take "Mahakam Forge" as an example for a "new" leader ability. If your opponent plays MF, have you ever been surprised by it? Was there any tension what your opponent might do? Anything you didn't expect? Or did you simply do the math upfront because it is 100% transparent and clear? In comparision: How does playing against "Pincer Manoever" or any of the others feel like?

We will end up with several variations of "Boost by X. Charge: Y. Once all charges are gone spawn Z" as someone mentioned before. That will probably be "beefed up" with stuff like veil or purify or something equally inconsequential. That is perfect form a balancing perspective but also a bit ... ummm ... dull.

Having all leader abilities designed like this, will make them less interesting and important. They loose value and will become interchangable to a certain extend. Ultimately, leader abilities will be meaningless. Again: That is the goal! Balancing wise this is fine. But for me, personally, it is a loss from a gameplay and flavour perspective.

That is just a gloomy, personal prediction. Who knows? Maybe we will be positively surprised and CDPR comes up with interesting ideas!

We can start betting which leader ability will be changed to be the shittiest of all the new abilities.. My bet would be ME being the shittiest closely followed by Call Of Harmony.. you know like how ST has been getting in last several expansions/versions..

I thought about that too and cried myself to sleep that night ...

By the way: There is another mechanic in the game that allows to play two cards/engines in one turn. It is called resurrection as far as I have heard. But that is really a niche thing. Nobody is using that. Why would anyone resurrect anything from his/her graveyard. That is just ridiculous to do, right?

So it will be fine, lads! Nothing to worry about! It'll be fine!

 

[SuperiorSaturn]

"if I get this off I have a 99% percent of winning if it gets answered about 10%"

Interesting take. Anyone past rank 15 knows to bleed NR and especially pm since they're always combo decks. If you get to a long round 3 and they still have leader ability then you've already intentionally lost the game in the first 2 rounds. Not all decks need a round 3 and your wincon isn't always constricted to round isolated plays. The whole concept of round control is for you to counter decks like these. Just a strange reason overall to hate on these abilities.

They should have just been provisioned properly to make up for their consistency. SK's problem wasn't their leader ability but their individual card strength which is why they're going to have to nerf it again. Same thing with fran after they nerfed mystic echo like 4 or 5 times and they still had to delete harmony. More often than not these leader abilities aren't the problem but the cards are. DJ and foltest weren't tutor leaders when they dominated ladder. Lazy take on balance imo. Just my 2 cents.

 

[LwissP2B]

Every time i play this game I get more desperate. Sick of this meta and the developers inability to logically evaluate the game.

 

[quintivarium]

Then I guess we disagree....

Personally, I like creative abilities like Mahakam Forge. The only reason it doesn't see more play is because the Dwarf archetype hasn't been fully developed; the ability itself is very good.

You are right, we will disagree. I find Mahakam Forge a horrible leader design in that it only really helps dwarf-heavy decks. It is not a leader for Scoia’tael, it is a leader for armored dwarves. It could be worse as dwarf heavy decks can still come in several flavors, but I would contrast its narrow focus and use to that of Invigorate. The latter is also creative, and while it may help hand-boost type decks (Aglais) type decks more, it at least has widespread appropriate value.

It is not fair to claim leader skills that work for an entire faction are bad because that makes them overpowered — again, invigorate is an obvious counter example. But a leader needs to be a distinctive characteristic for the entire faction, not another feature of a particular deck.

By the way, the other leaders that need to be generalized for the same reason are Sacrificial Vanguard and Ursine Ritual. One reason I often play Second Wind with Skellige is that there are relatively few options for a person who doesn’t want to play a pidgeonholed deck. Because I’m prone to forget powers that require regular rather than situational activation (Onslaught) and I don’t own many suitable targets for Blaze of Glory, my options with SK are few indeed.

 

[Anciluart]

It is interesting how little by little they are removing the "solutions" that made HC the "improved version" of the beta. Maybe in 2 more years they will notice that the supply system is rubbish and go back to the 3 types of cards.
They could even find some space for a 3rd row .... imagine what it would be like to play with 3 rows instead of 2 !!!

This reminds me of the @4RM3D thread where it was tried to see if HC had managed to surpass the Beta with its innovations, sooner or later it is revealed that it really did not.

I think the reworks will be in the style of mahakam forge, some thematic bonus and a play with a bronze card. That or charges, more charges.

I'm not going to miss those leaders

Vysogota does not approve of the changes, he likes cheese

 

[wonderboy870]

Where are you guys seeing this? Was it on Twitter, Reddit, twitch, etc...

 

[bojerbela]

Where are you guys seeing this? Was it on Twitter, Reddit, twitch, etc...

You mean the '2 cards in 1 turn leader' change? It was in the last dev. stream.

 

[Markus_Wirth]

To my mind the new leaders should support fraction specific issues which are not performing well:

e.g. Mystic Echo: When you play a trap add one random vitality to allied unit or bleeding to enemy unit
Mystic Echo: Symbiosis. Order (3x): Give veil to a unit

e.g. Second Wind: When you play a raid card deal 2 damage if you have at least 4 allied warriors
Second Wind: Give robustness to one allied unit. Then give bleeding to another allied unit according to the base strength of the unit which got robustness

 

[ya1_]

How about:

Order: create and play "Scissors. Deploy: if opponent plays Rock, lose the game. If opponent plays Paper, win the game."

 

[Slizzl]

How do you even replace something like Strategic Withdrawal to make it not play two cards?

I hope the devs realize that if they make everything charge based they remove complexity from the game. Playing around strong one time use low provision leaders like Wild Card is a part of round strategy. Also that there are cards created with these abilities in mind. And it's not like they're that far above everything else, I'd argue something like Inspired Zeal beats out Pincer Maneuver for example. Hidden Cache is a waaaaay better ability than Wild Card. Imperial Formation can already outclass Tactical Decision in many ways, the only reason that was even a problem was Masquerade Ball to begin with.

They already seem to have forgotten that old Vabjorn synergized with Onslaught which I guess is why I have so little faith in them drastically changing a big chunk of the game in such a short time. It's such a drastic measure for something that could have been solved in so many other ways and I fear it will make things more stale, predictable and limit deckbuilding. If there's one thing these leaders offer it's flexible decks.

I still believe the answer could've lied in provisions, they never even bothered trying the 9 provision cap thing for ME. But screw it, let's just scrap everything again I guess.