The Problem with Nilfgaard

[Philido]

Be thankful it's just 30. At least 70% of my matches are NG. For whatever reason if you're a MO main you can't escape them.

I guess the question is why are so many people playing NG? The lazy excuse a lot of people here give is "players like the faction" so that's why lol
Even though I play mostly MO I admitted from day 1 that ethereal was broken and needed the nerf, I tried it once and then never went back to it because it isn't good for the game overall.... but you'd be hard pressed to find one NG player who wasn't a hypocrite selling the usual "it's a perfectly balanced faction" b.s.

How much experience do you have playing NG? Because even calling pro gamers like SpyroZa "hypocrites" because they say NG is not the best faction and relatively well balanced is very bold. Or are you just here to blow off steam? Because the faction being fun to play is just a "lazy excuse" is also something I can't really take seriously as a statement. Why do you mostly play MO? Because they are.... fun to play for you maybe? Ever thought about the possibility that this may also apply to NG players?

Post automatically merged: Aug 10, 2020

I'm not completely against NG, I even play a couple of NG decks. What cranks me off is that fully 30% of my matches are against NG. It seems to be all that opponents are playing, and this is across Seasonal and Ranked.

That's definitely frustrating, I also dislike playing against NG. However, this does not mean the faction is overpowered or something like that. It's just mentally very challenging to remember all of NG's ways to destroy your game plan and play around them accordingly. Works really well with my NR deck so far but I understand that this faction really isn't much fun to have as opponent. Nilfgaard's whole identity would have to be overhauled if someone wanted to change this and that's veeery unlikely to happen.

 

[ShinAkira00]

How much experience do you have playing NG? Because even calling pro gamers like SpyroZa "hypocrites" because they say NG is not the best faction and relatively well balanced is very bold. Or are you just here to blow off steam? Because the faction being fun to play is just a "lazy excuse" is also something I can't really take seriously as a statement. Why do you mostly play MO? Because they are.... fun to play for you maybe? Ever thought about the possibility that this may also apply to NG players?

Post automatically merged: Aug 10, 2020

That's definitely frustrating, I also dislike playing against NG. However, this does not mean the faction is overpowered or something like that. It's just mentally very challenging to remember all of NG's ways to destroy your game plan and play around them accordingly. Works really well with my NR deck so far but I understand that this faction really isn't much fun to have as opponent. Nilfgaard's whole identity would have to be overhauled if someone wanted to change this and that's veeery unlikely to happen.

The NG issue isn't remembering how many ways they can disrupt your game. The problem is knowing what's coming but being powerless to do anything about it.

When poison was an issue ppl asked for sensible purify options but unless you can play upwards of 5 purify units then that's not a valid counter which is why they then went with veil but now that's not a counter so much so that it's better to not have veil than to actually have it. And now they can complete their scenario in a single turn wiping near everything off the board. The aristocrat tag gives them synergy with almost all their archetypes and it's the only faction I've seen do this with no sacrifice....synergy with evolving card, scenario, leader abilities. You can't counter spies which in itself is a huge advantage with huge point swings.

The theme here is constantly reacting to NG, meaning they're always in control of the match unless matched against another broken faction. Ask yourself this, when did heavier become an auto include? Was it because of other factions or because of ball? Other factions are constantly changing because of a single faction but that faction doesn't have to adapt. When you have to ask, do I keep devotion and get recked by NG or lose devotion and stand a chance...there's a problem.

Back in the day you could risk not having a purify in your deck. In fact against SY or ST I could afford to go without it because they can't spam poison without risk. When a single faction is dictating change that's when you know it's broken. We saw that with SK and it was rightfully nerfed.

 

[Philido]

Heaver is a great tech against Passiflora, Ball, Siege and even Gedyneith, I've already seen all of those scenarios a couple of time in my ranked season, not only the NG one. Purify isn't good at countering poison, but you also need it for defenders. With NG's best list you typically have four Fangs of the Empire (two can be denied through Bomb Heaver) and Cupbearer, Maraal very rarely nowadays. ST often runs five poisons, SY four. And you don't get instantly recked if you can't destroy the scenario, I've had so many games where ball simply wasn't enough to win for me or the opponent, so NG (obviously) isn't auto win against Devotion decks. And I honestly don't see how this faction is dictating the meta right now (I wish it was lol). There's not a single proof of that, looking at the win rates it appears as a good faction at least to me, nothing more, nothing less. MO are always said to be so bad against NG and generally weak af, but the last couple of seasons Blood Scent actually used to be incredibly strong, got way better results than NG, then there was Ethereal. I guess that many people mistake frustrating cards to play against for overpowered and broken ones. Or they simply hate the faction and want it to be erased from existence through rigorous nerfs so that not a single one plays it any more.

 

[Bryan_Teng]

In my last 40 ranked games, I had faced NG 4 times. Just 4 times. I am not particularly fond of NG but I am not sure why NG got a new thread in this month. This is a month of SK, MO and NR.

In 40 games:
SK: 12
MO: 10
NR: 8
NG: 4
ST: 3
SY: 3

Any post about NG being too prevalent or MO being too weak is actually confusing me. MO is just pretty strong. NR is also ridiculously strong. NG may fare well against some greedy decks, but I don't think it is more powerful than MO or NR because I don't face them at all (in pro rank around 2450-2480 FMMR). Probably we will have to revisit this after next update where SK gets nerfed and somehow NG becomes more prevalent and strong, but now, I can't relate to this thread.

What rank are you? In high rank everyone is using NG and its impossible to beat

Post automatically merged: Aug 11, 2020

Devs, nerf NG or many players like myself wont be returning to the game. At rank 9 and its almost impossible to beat NG decks (usually 2 wins to 1 win)

 

[lor1keet]

The data does not support nerfing NG.

In pro-league for Season of the Griffin, the highest NG leader ability only managed a 50.84% win-rate.

Contrast that with SK, which had over a 60% win-rate.

NG is basically like a blue control deck from Magic. Non-blue players are gonna hate no matter how weak the color is.

 

[ya1_]

NG is basically like a blue control deck from Magic. Non-blue players are gonna hate no matter how weak the color is.

This.

 

[ShinAkira00]

The data does not support nerfing NG.

In pro-league for Season of the Griffin, the highest NG leader ability only managed a 50.84% win-rate.

Contrast that with SK, which had over a 60% win-rate.

NG is basically like a blue control deck from Magic. Non-blue players are gonna hate no matter how weak the color is.

So let me get this straight. When ppl complained about SK it was warranted but when they complain about NG for the same reason it's some irrational blue color hate? Lol gotcha

 

[lor1keet]

So let me get this straight. When ppl complained about SK it was warranted but when they complain about NG for the same reason it's some irrational blue color hate? Lol gotcha

Sounds like you have your mind fixed. Not much more I can tell you.

The data is there. It does not support your rally to nerf NG.

If you were going to argue that SK needed a big nerf, the data is there to support you.

 

[arshiatrex]

its funny how people hate nilfgaard for being an annoying faction while its not op. the best factions right now are sk and mo and people still complain about ng because they cant win against it.
the only problem i would say ng has is vincent becoming more powerful as more cards get printed, maybe at some point vincent has to get tuned.
and also scenrios in general are a problem, not only masquerade ball.

 

[Vo1fger]

The NG issue isn't remembering how many ways they can disrupt your game. The problem is knowing what's coming but being powerless to do anything about it.

I can name quite a few decks that fulfill your reqiurement: triple Kikimora queen - you know very well what it is going to do but without specific answers it easily achieves 150+ points; the only reliable counter to this strategy is Yrden. You can somewhat reduce their power by destroying drones but only if you get rid of them right away (and even then it does not assure your victory);
The infamous NR engine trio under defender - Vysogota-Dandellion-Priscilla (and that is not even adding redanian archers) that is especially dangerous with Calanthe as leader. Yet again - if you don't have specific and quick answers you'll be obliterated with a difference of 50+ points;
Now forgotten but still a very snowball combination for SY - Igor-townsfolk-tax collector (saw some variations that used firesworn scribes, Imke and Bincy); with Dijkstra as leader it will be especially difficult to fully shut down combo. If it goes unanswered it can make just as much points as triple Kikimora queen (with Bincy and Imke it can even suprass it);
And another forgotten combo that recently became better - Gedyneith played in one turn with Eist. Since almost no deck deals with opponent's graveyard it can safely play scenario then Ermion into Svalblod's priest/Crow clan druid/Crow clan preacher (although the latter is a rarity) and get 30+ points in one turn (if there are synergies for priest and mardroeme it will be very close to 40 - or even above that if Dracoturtle is on board).

When poison was an issue ppl asked for sensible purify options but unless you can play upwards of 5 purify units then that's not a valid counter which is why they then went with veil but now that's not a counter so much so that it's better to not have veil than to actually have it.

You don't need this much purify against Nilfgaard nowadays (it was already explained why by Philido so I won't repeat). As for "...better to not have veil" - there is only one quick answer to veil from NG - Vincent; otherwise they'll have to waste 2 to 3 turns to get rid of one unit. Does that sound opressive to you?

 

[Six-Sided-Prism]

The data is there. It does not support your rally to nerf NG.

If you were going to argue that SK needed a big nerf, the data is there to support you.

But there is data that supports nerfing Nilfgaard. You're just ignoring it. We don't just have win rate statistics, we also have play rate statistics. Nilfgaard generally has at least a 25% play rate, well above every other faction, including Skellige. You can't say that all factions are reasonably balanced when Nilfgaard is played twice as often as every other faction.

It's also true that the abundance of certain mechanics, like Poison and Spies, completely shuts down certain decks and prevents them from seeing play, so Nilfgaard currently restricts deck diversity.

The presence of control inside card games is fine, and it's perfectly fair for that to be Nilfgaard's identity, but CDPR still has to fix the balance problems that are plaguing Gwent.

 

[Philido]

But there is data that supports nerfing Nilfgaard. You're just ignoring it. We don't just have win rate statistics, we also have play rate statistics. Nilfgaard generally has at least a 25% play rate, well above every other faction, including Skellige. You can't say that all factions are reasonably balanced when Nilfgaard is played twice as often as every other faction.

It's also true that the abundance of certain mechanics, like Poison and Spies, completely shuts down certain decks and prevents them from seeing play, so Nilfgaard currently restricts deck diversity.

The presence of control inside card games and fine, and it's perfectly fair for that to be Nilfgaard's identity, but CDPR still has to fix the balance problems that are plaguing Gwent.

So if the play rate is the problem then the faction needs a nerf in... fun? I have no idea why and even more importantly how a faction should be nerfed that's just way more enjoyable to play than the rest. And EVERY single faction restricts deck versatility because they are simply better than some homebrew meme deck that we all want to play and win with. We simply can't because the meta in general is just too oppressive. Tried NG without Ball and Poison, got completely destroyed by four decks out of five. Tried soldiers only, again no chance against the meta slaves. Saying that only Nilfgaard "restricts deck versatility" is INCREDIBLY shortsighted.

 

[Vo1fger]

I agree for the most part with your post, Philido, but I have different opinion regarding this part.

Tried NG without Ball and Poison, got completely destroyed by four decks out of five. Tried soldiers only, again no chance against the meta slaves.

Every card game has draw RNG, so you can win meta deck with your cards being better (like my most recent win in Bran's crows against most popular Arnjolf match); there are also situations when a meta deck is piloted by a player that doesn't know it and you have an advantage here (I think most of you can remember some newbies you played against doing very poorly with a good deck); there is also a certain factor of some meme decks doing well against certain meta deck. I'll give an example for the latter - I had won 2 games against Arnjolf with full on locks Imposter (this was before hotfix, but it doesn't really matter); in first case I had last say, in second I didn't (but the score was double in my favoir - 42:21). Largely it was thanks to Vattier stealing Arnjolf with the use of leader ability (and before anyone in the thread jumps to conclusions - no, my opponents found every piece of removal and good card they could but those were used earlier and all that was left for them as 2 final cards were Wild boar and Morkvarg). However, I'm more than certain it wouldn't fare that well against any other meta deck.

So in conclusion - there is no such thing as "zero chance to win" because there will always be a draw RNG and opponent RNG.

 

[Six-Sided-Prism]

So if the play rate is the problem then the faction needs a nerf in... fun? I have no idea why and even more importantly how a faction should be nerfed that's just way more enjoyable to play than the rest. And EVERY single faction restricts deck versatility because they are simply better than some homebrew meme deck that we all want to play and win with. We simply can't because the meta in general is just too oppressive. Tried NG without Ball and Poison, got completely destroyed by four decks out of five. Tried soldiers only, again no chance against the meta slaves. Saying that only Nilfgaard "restricts deck versatility" is INCREDIBLY shortsighted.

I don't really think fun is the main reason that Nilfgaard is played more than the other factions. It's also not solely about people liking control because Sydicate and Scoia'tael are control-based too. In my opinion, it's that they have more than the other factions. More unique effects, more mechanics, and all the different pieces synergize exceptionally well when combined. Basically, most of the complaints that Skellige has been receiving for the last month or so could also be applied to Nilfgaard for as long as I've been playing; it just works too well.

And to clarify, it's not that Nilfgaard is the only thing that needs to be adjusted. There are obviously cards in every faction that are just too good for their provision costs, and there are far too many cards to ever list that will never be playable without being buffed or redesigned. I'm only focusing on Nilfgaard because I think it would still be problematic even if every card in Gwent was properly balanced according to its provision cost. Some aspects of Nilfgaard would likely need to be reworked if CDPR ever decided to take balancing Gwent more seriously.

 

[lor1keet]

But there is data that supports nerfing Nilfgaard. You're just ignoring it. We don't just have win rate statistics, we also have play rate statistics. Nilfgaard generally has at least a 25% play rate, well above every other faction, including Skellige. You can't say that all factions are reasonably balanced when Nilfgaard is played twice as often as every other faction.

It's also true that the abundance of certain mechanics, like Poison and Spies, completely shuts down certain decks and prevents them from seeing play, so Nilfgaard currently restricts deck diversity.

The presence of control inside card games is fine, and it's perfectly fair for that to be Nilfgaard's identity, but CDPR still has to fix the balance problems that are plaguing Gwent.

So, you want to nerf NG not because it wins a lot, but because it is very popular.

That would be a great way to alienate your players.

 

[ya1_]

It's also true that the abundance of certain mechanics, like Poison and Spies, completely shuts down certain decks and prevents them from seeing play, so Nilfgaard currently restricts deck diversity.

I honestly don't think poison shuts down anything at this point. Ball with Enforcers got 5 poisons (including the Ball) so it's the same amount as old harmony or SY (but less consistent because you often never see the 4th and 5th due to the Heaver). Double Ball got more but its from Rot Tossers and Maraal both of which are meh in this meta.

As for the mysterious spy domination... You mean assimilation? If you ever get row blocked by assimilation that's 70% on you for going long round vs an engine overload deck (30% is can't win R1 cuz bad draw). And seriously, assimilation is meh. It's only works when you go all in and leave no room for control. And even then it still often can't catch up with top engine overload decks like NR (which actually do have quite a lot of control).

Double Ball and Assimilate decks do not hold a candle to the likes of MO Fruits (still good) or Hunger, devotion NR or current post-nerf SK.

 

[Philido]

Jesus, did something happen to NG? Suddenly that faction feels so bad against ST (elves) and MO (Overwhelming Hunger)....or maybe I'm just bad lol

 

[rrc]

Jesus, did something happen to NG? Suddenly that faction feels so bad against ST (elves) and MO (Overwhelming Hunger)....or maybe I'm just bad lol

If you have issues beating ST, then I am most definitely sure that the problem is with you

 

[ya1_]

Jesus, did something happen to NG? Suddenly that faction feels so bad against ST (elves) and MO (Overwhelming Hunger)....or maybe I'm just bad lol

If you lose R1 with Elves then you can either hope for them not drawing anything or forfeit. Ironically, Elves will bleed NG for short R3 where they can fill the row and point slam fast (the list with symbiosis). Or they often go for 2-0. If you're the devotion NG, then you either drew to defend or you didn't and you're stuck with no tutors.

You gotta win that R1. And with the NG and the where-are-my-points situation, it's always hard... And then there's is the risk of going into long round vs. Elves and finding out that they are the swarm kind with Isengrim, Talismans, Triss, etc.

BTW gotta love the Gwent meta ecosystem. SK was nerfed, and suddenly Elves pop up.

MO is king now.

 

[rrc]

If you lose R1 with Elves then you can either hope for them not drawing anything or forfeit. Ironically, Elves will bleed NG for short R3 where they can fill the row and point slam fast (the list with symbiosis). Or they often go for 2-0. If you're the devotion NG, then you either drew to defend or you didn't and you're stuck with no tutors.

You gotta win that R1. And with the NG and the where-are-my-points situation, it's always hard... And then there's is the risk of going into long round vs. Elves and finding out that they are the swarm kind with Isengrim, Talismans, Triss, etc.

BTW gotta love the Gwent meta ecosystem. SK was nerfed, and suddenly Elves pop up.

MO is king now.

Are we talking about the same game here? ST? Elves? The only ST I face are PrecisionStrike Shirru shenanigans and MF non-devotion of-course-no-zoltan-or-munro dwarfs. And that I face them rarely. I am currently playing in R2.