Duel Tag should ignore Shield (Shieldwall fix)

[Slizzl]

So I've been thinking and I believe the only way to fix Shield Wall is this:
Duel tag is tweaked to ignore Shield just like Tourney Joust already does.
Effect is changed to Charge 3: Shield a unit and Spawn a Volunteer (2 point Soldier).

I see many people saying it needs to be removed altogether but I really think it can work in this form. Giving both Inspired and Shield is too strong but not giving any points at all is too weak.
Please give me your thoughts.

EDIT: Added attached file with my more polished version.

 

[judgecsk]

Reduce to 1 point of boost or zero point if it's gonna spawn any type of unit, a shield is enough for a faction that has units that duel and units that capitalise on and greatly synergize with the boost status.
I would even go as far as reducing i'ts provision benefit.
This s*** is seriously broken when it comes packed with a shield aswell.
I'm not even kidding .

 

[Jollyrogerxberg]

Well, as I have some time, here are my thoughts. Let's start with a quick analysis to sort all that.
Why was Carapace bad in MO but Shield Wall is over the top with NR?

First of all, SW is plain better with 3x boost2+shield compared with 2x boost3+ shield. Leader points get spread wider, loosing a buffed unit allong side just deletes 1/3 not 1/2 of Leader. And of course one shield more gives the option of using it on vulnerable but strong cards early on e.g. bronce engines.
Synergie and usage:
Nr has actual shield synergie but most is in the meme corner but still it is a valid faction mechanism while MO has no clue at all. More important and probably most important is the engine protection it offers. Nr has a whole lot of engines spread over all prov. slots providing great value along combos and synergies to even increase the value (e.g. drummer-tridam) but are vulnerable through low bodies.
MO does not offer these. MO engines are either well protected to begin with like Larvae, Beas or Phantom or they split to lower removal chance/value. The only engine fitting the spot that comes to my mind is Nekurat, a total tribe card that depend on its own bloody archetype. Or my WH boy (5p ping1 /dominance ping2, sorry forgot the name in all that Imlerith Ge'els swip swap wich allways has a big haircross above his head, wether beeing shielded or not.
High end Gold usage: MO had some ... well wishes to buff till dominance enabling some good golds like Adda or Eredin himself but nothing that can't be done even better with generic MO big boys.
NR loves its boost. Half of the top end has a nice Inspired bonus like baron, shani, Pris etc. And the biggest issue perhaps the interacion of shielded (and boosted) Duels. A single shield in a Duel could easily play for 5-10 points of removal and that is where the cieling has just lost its limit.

So as a conclusion: MO only added more value to opponent removal. MO biggest fear is not removal by midrange damage but tall removal - not fitting.

NR has a lot to protect and fears midrangy damage because it can lose most value if they don't stick. LOts of 4,5,6 p bodys with big potential.

Looking at my own thoughts I guess at first I suggest removing one charge. Make it an actual choice wether to use leader or not. We already seen the change to uprising by just losing one charge. (Not increasing the boost, 2 is enough)
At second I would test lowering the buff value even more. Compared to Inspired Zeal, I guess NR can value a single shield as much as a zeal, given the number of allready zealed options and other ways to stay until order's ready.

The idea of spawning Volunteers instead of boost sounds also reasonable to me but is a bit clunky at the same time. The combination of protection along swarm support - to be honest - I just can't really imagine it. Could be cool to protect your swarmers (fregates) while spawning more bodys and probably enable some "crew" but could also be very odd. This would surly move shield wall out of the "autochoise" spot it is right now.

 

[Slizzl]

Well, as I have some time, here are my thoughts. Let's start with a quick analysis to sort all that.
Why was Carapace bad in MO but Shield Wall is over the top with NR?

First of all, SW is plain better with 3x boost2+shield compared with 2x boost3+ shield. Leader points get spread wider, loosing a buffed unit allong side just deletes 1/3 not 1/2 of Leader. And of course one shield more gives the option of using it on vulnerable but strong cards early on e.g. bronce engines.
Synergie and usage:
Nr has actual shield synergie but most is in the meme corner but still it is a valid faction mechanism while MO has no clue at all. More important and probably most important is the engine protection it offers. Nr has a whole lot of engines spread over all prov. slots providing great value along combos and synergies to even increase the value (e.g. drummer-tridam) but are vulnerable through low bodies.
MO does not offer these. MO engines are either well protected to begin with like Larvae, Beas or Phantom or they split to lower removal chance/value. The only engine fitting the spot that comes to my mind is Nekurat, a total tribe card that depend on its own bloody archetype. Or my WH boy (5p ping1 /dominance ping2, sorry forgot the name in all that Imlerith Ge'els swip swap wich allways has a big haircross above his head, wether beeing shielded or not.
High end Gold usage: MO had some ... well wishes to buff till dominance enabling some good golds like Adda or Eredin himself but nothing that can't be done even better with generic MO big boys.
NR loves its boost. Half of the top end has a nice Inspired bonus like baron, shani, Pris etc. And the biggest issue perhaps the interacion of shielded (and boosted) Duels. A single shield in a Duel could easily play for 5-10 points of removal and that is where the cieling has just lost its limit.

So as a conclusion: MO only added more value to opponent removal. MO biggest fear is not removal by midrange damage but tall removal - not fitting.

NR has a lot to protect and fears midrangy damage because it can lose most value if they don't stick. LOts of 4,5,6 p bodys with big potential.

Looking at my own thoughts I guess at first I suggest removing one charge. Make it an actual choice wether to use leader or not. We already seen the change to uprising by just losing one charge. (Not increasing the boost, 2 is enough)
At second I would test lowering the buff value even more. Compared to Inspired Zeal, I guess NR can value a single shield as much as a zeal, given the number of allready zealed options and other ways to stay until order's ready.

The idea of spawning Volunteers instead of boost sounds also reasonable to me but is a bit clunky at the same time. The combination of protection along swarm support - to be honest - I just can't really imagine it. Could be cool to protect your swarmers (fregates) while spawning more bodys and probably enable some "crew" but could also be very odd. This would surly move shield wall out of the "autochoise" spot it is right now.

I too considered reducing the charges but honestly the intended support for Shield Wall (Roegner, Windhalm, Kaedweni Cavalry, Damned Sorceress) make more sense with 3 charges imo. My thought process was how to best support these sorts of cards instead of having the ability used solely on engines like Anna or duels.
As long as it provides Inspired you will never see anyone use it for these I don't think.

 

[4RM3D]

Updated the topic of the thread to better reflect its content and moved it to suggestions.

This thread should only be about this particular suggestion. For general discussions, please use the existing thread: Shieldwall Hotfix Waiting Room.

 

[DC9V]

Well, as I have some time, here are my thoughts. Let's start with a quick analysis to sort all that.
Why was Carapace bad in MO but Shield Wall is over the top with NR?

It's the duel tag that makes Shieldwall overpowered.
NR has two duelling units, and you can even reset the ability with Viraxas Prince.
This is not comparable with Carapace.

 

[ya1]

I don't agree that well designed mechanics that never caused any issues before should be changed because of a badly designed leader. Shieldwall is broken. Not duel. Those who want to use shields to empower duel through Radeya or Artificer should be able to do that like they always could.

Going around changing the system because an anomaly was erroneously introduced makes zero sense when the easiest solution is to remove the anomaly. CDPR needs to get humble and acknowledge their errors. Shieldwall needs to be pulled back and another completely different leader must be designed. Anyone who played meta NR even for a minute knows that NR cannot have shields on a leader.

 

[DC9V]

Going around changing the system because an anomaly was erroneously introduced makes zero sense when the easiest solution is to remove the anomaly.

That would be he most logical and healthy solution. However, I think it was 100% intended to make Shieldwall OP so they now got a reason to edit or remove the duel tag.

 

[judgecsk]

I think it was 100% intended to make Shieldwall OP so they now got a reason to edit or remove the duel tag.

- I don't think that that's the case since there is nothing pointing to that but... if we're gonna engage in "conspiracy theories" though, hear me out.
I'm not an expert on Witcher lore so correct me if i'm wrong.

- The boost came along with the new board, the army/forces that fought at the Yaruga bridge were part of the NR right..?
So giving something OP to the NR faction while that is being released it might boost the sales since a lot of people will want to "re-live" the glory of that battle and it falls right into the theme.
You can say quite the same bout the MM Gaunter O Dimm card and the Ethereal's release.

- Most of people consider Gaunter to be a demon or the devil, the Ethereal is a demon aswell, a new board was released in tandem to the MM card expansion aswell and fits the theme.

- I think that's a much more plausible scenario, not that I can confirm anything though and it could/can be just a coincidence but still it makes much more sense imo.

P.S. @DC9V That aggressive shielded Squirrel looks positively OP, nerf !!!

 

[DC9V]

- I don't think that that's the case since there is nothing pointing to that but...

Yea... Maybe I was alleging conspiracy. Sorry.
...I'm pretty sure I've seen this Shupe somewhere in the forums tho.
THiS cAn'T bE a C0iNciDeNcE

 

[Slizzl]

I don't agree that well designed mechanics that never caused any issues before should be changed because of a badly designed leader. Shieldwall is broken. Not duel. Those who want to use shields to empower duel through Radeya or Artificer should be able to do that like they always could.

Going around changing the system because an anomaly was erroneously introduced makes zero sense when the easiest solution is to remove the anomaly. CDPR needs to get humble and acknowledge their errors. Shieldwall needs to be pulled back and another completely different leader must be designed. Anyone who played meta NR even for a minute knows that NR cannot have shields on a leader.

I don't feel that making it ignore Shields is a particularly drastic change anyway. If we were talking about nerfing Anseis or Seltkirk it would be different. This change would rarely be noticeable other than the broken interaction being gone.

 

[Jollyrogerxberg]

I too considered reducing the charges but honestly the intended support for Shield Wall (Roegner, Windhalm, Kaedweni Cavalry, Damned Sorceress) make more sense with 3 charges imo. My thought process was how to best support these sorts of cards instead of having the ability used solely on engines like Anna or duels.
As long as it provides Inspired you will never see anyone use it for these I don't think.

really good reasoning. I could imagine a rather unispired "version" of uprising. streamlining the leaders to 3 usage of x plus play weak bronce card like the 4p Cavalery with a shield or an artificer or the damn sorceres

p.s. I got drawn to this topic by the topic "...fix to shieldwall" not "...fix duel" and wrote my answer regarding shieldwall completely ignoring any "duel changes"
either my post is in the wrong thread now or this thread has now the wrong title

 

[4RM3D]

either my post is in the wrong thread now or this thread has now the wrong title

There are multiple threads regarding Shieldwall. Every suggestion has its own thread now. For general discussions, please, visist: Shieldwall Hotfix Waiting Room.

 

[Slizzl]

really good reasoning. I could imagine a rather unispired "version" of uprising. streamlining the leaders to 3 usage of x plus play weak bronce card like the 4p Cavalery with a shield or an artificer or the damn sorceres

p.s. I got drawn to this topic by the topic "...fix to shieldwall" not "...fix duel" and wrote my answer regarding shieldwall completely ignoring any "duel changes"
either my post is in the wrong thread now or this thread has now the wrong title

Thank you. I submitted the idea to /r/gwent as well hoping the devs might listen then, but it seems to have been downvoted into oblivion because and I quote "Shield Wall isn't broken". So I really appreciate it being better received here.

What is really off-putting for me is that Shield Wall is being used on the exact same decks as Uprising was.
I thought these new leaders were supposed to encourage different playstyles. It's quite disappointing to see.

 

[ya1]

but it seems to have been downvoted into oblivion because and I quote "Shield Wall isn't broken".

Downvoted by who?

 

[Slizzl]

Downvoted by who?

Those people that didn't feel it was broken I guess. I made one of these custom cards to better get my idea across, maybe I worded it poorly or something.

 

[judgecsk]

It seems to have been downvoted into oblivion because and I quote "Shield Wall isn't broken".

...why am i not surprised at all...

I thought these new leaders were supposed to encourage different playstyles. It's quite disappointing to see.

- I wish for the same thing mate but I don't think that's possible.
I believe that the cards available to a faction+neutrals make up for how the game is played...

- Imo changing the Leader Abilities will most of the times just make people think about how they can use em in already existing decks-strategies or just destroy the way some people used to play.

- Specifically... they gave a shield+boost ability to THE faction that can ABSOLUTELY thrive and dominate with it cause of the synergy the units have the (zeal-formation tag +boosted status) and the ability to duel.
Makes no sense at all...
Doesn't take a genius to figure out the outcome...still they went on with it.
"no further comment your honor"

 

[ya1]

I don't feel that making it ignore Shields is a particularly drastic change anyway. If we were talking about nerfing Anseis or Seltkirk it would be different. This change would rarely be noticeable other than the broken interaction being gone.

I agree with your idea per se. I just don't like the idea of the game getting adjusted to erroneous design instead of simply correcting that design. I do not even presume to begin to imagine what convoluted paths and twisted mental shortcuts gave birth to the idea that NR should get shield charges on a leader. But this circle of making the game unplayable for extended periods of time must end. And it is not gonna end when ideas like Shieldwall are being justified and reinforced with further changes.

SK brokenness in the first month after MM - it's understandable because the Gwent team had the whole expansion worth of cards to balance. The fact that they couldn't balance it for such a long time - less so. But now that meta stabilized and NR came out on top, devs made such a mistake as if they had zero knowledge of how their own game functions - I really do not think the commmunity should continue to express patience and tolerance.

 

[judgecsk]

I agree with your idea per se. I just don't like the idea of the game getting adjusted to erroneous design instead of simply correcting that design. I do not even presume to begin to imagine what convoluted paths and twisted mental shortcuts gave birth to the idea that NR should get shield charges on a leader. But this circle of making the game unplayable for extended periods of time must end. And it is not gonna end when ideas like Shieldwall are being justified and reinforced with further changes.

SK brokenness in the first month after MM - it's understandable because the Gwent team had the whole expansion worth of cards to balance. The fact that they couldn't balance it for such a long time - less so. But now that meta stabilized and NR came out on top, devs made such a mistake as if they had zero knowledge of how their own game functions - I really do not think the commmunity should continue to express patience and tolerance.

The english language aint my native and i'm not that good at using it but you sir, you managed to express my feelings about the whole balance issue with gwent with bullseye accuracy.

Cheers !

 

[Slizzl]

I agree with your idea per se. I just don't like the idea of the game getting adjusted to erroneous design instead of simply correcting that design. I do not even presume to begin to imagine what convoluted paths and twisted mental shortcuts gave birth to the idea that NR should get shield charges on a leader. But this circle of making the game unplayable for extended periods of time must end. And it is not gonna end when ideas like Shieldwall are being justified and reinforced with further changes.

SK brokenness in the first month after MM - it's understandable because the Gwent team had the whole expansion worth of cards to balance. The fact that they couldn't balance it for such a long time - less so. But now that meta stabilized and NR came out on top, devs made such a mistake as if they had zero knowledge of how their own game functions - I really do not think the commmunity should continue to express patience and tolerance.

I think their thought process was solely focused on the actual Shield reliant cards like Roegner, Windhalm, Damned Sorceress and so on seeing little play. I actually kinda enjoy playing those cards especially Roegner which is why I'm trying my best to look for a solution where it might possibly not be broken. It might be a lost cause as you say.
But at least if it doesn't boost as well there's some hope of killing the shielded engines somehow, and the many benefits NR gains from boosts are removed. The shield coupled with 2+ boosts just puts everything up to the unkillable range forcing locks which most factions don't have many of.
There are of course bigger issues than just Shieldwall too. NR was top tier last season even without it, but that's another topic altogether.

Speaking of SK I think they are also still top tier, but I'm rambling at this point so I'll cut it short.